Possible coup in Turkey

[justoh]

Dude, that is totally unfair. Oric has always been very reasonable - more so that most of us. I'm as hard on Islamicists as is anyone, and Oric is no Islamicist. You owe him an apology.

Guess I misunderstood him as being pro Erdogan. If so, then, sorry Oric.

 

[Jaskalas]

I thought EU's first and foremost condition was "to be a democratic republic". A failed military coup should be applauded in that sense.

This subject is far larger than the events of the past week.

Erdogan attacks Democracy itself.
"Democracy, freedom and the rule of law," have "absolutely no value any longer"
Definition of terrorist should include opposition politics and journalists.

He won the latest election after physically eliminating free press.
Seized Turkish media outlets turn pro-government overnight.

He is fighting a low level civil war and flattening parts of his own country.
Turkey’s silent war in the Kurdish heartland

Second, the cleansing is done on the "Islamist" factions that have infiltrated the state and the army. They were going to bring Islamist republic with their own leader, if they could

I admit to not knowing many details of what may or may not have occurred in Turkey since 2003. But at least one incident is of great concern, where the Turkish government dealt harshly with those who acted in good faith to prevent smuggling of weapons to terrorists.

Turkish intelligence helped ship arms to Syrian Islamist rebel areas
And media who reported on it? Raided.
Turkish daily exposes transfer of weapons to IS

Last, the rebel F16s were fueled by two tanker planes that took of from Incirlik US base. It is not a 75 year old man issue, there has been serious back up and intervention to Turkish politics. This is no joke.

So your government is "doubling down" on accusing and threatening the United States?
We live in interesting times.

 

[bshole]

I admit to not knowing many details of what may or may not have occurred in Turkey since 2003. But at least one incident is of great concern, where the Turkish government dealt harshly with those who acted in good faith to prevent smuggling of weapons to terrorists.

Turkish intelligence helped ship arms to Syrian Islamist rebel areas
And media who reported on it? Raided.
Turkish daily exposes transfer of weapons to IS

.

Hasn't the US been funding and arming terrorists (freedom fighters) in the Middle East for years now. It is almost like our government wants to foster terrorism, generate hate and foster civil war. For an American to criticize the Turkish government regarding its meddling in the Middle East is rather hypocritical. We shit all over Turkey's back yard and leave them an absolute mess. Basically you are criticizing Turkey for the way it is handling the mess that America created.

 

[LegendKiller]

Hasn't the US been funding and arming terrorists (freedom fighters) in the Middle East for years now. It is almost like our government wants to foster terrorism, generate hate and foster civil war. For an American to criticize the Turkish government regarding its meddling in the Middle East is rather hypocritical. We shit all over Turkey's back yard and leave them an absolute mess. Basically you are criticizing Turkey for the way it is handling the mess that America created.

And the mess they created. And the mess edrogan created by being an islamofascist.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Pretty much. We've been shoveling out horse manure and replacing the hole that we created with cow manure. There's no 'good side' to back over there. People revile Bush for messing with Iraq, but give Obama a pass on how he's totally buggered up things with Syria and Libya.

Hasn't the US been funding and arming terrorists (freedom fighters) in the Middle East for years now. It is almost like our government wants to foster terrorism, generate hate and foster civil war. For an American to criticize the Turkish government regarding its meddling in the Middle East is rather hypocritical. We shit all over Turkey's back yard and leave them an absolute mess. Basically you are criticizing Turkey for the way it is handling the mess that America created.

 

[HTFOff]

*Pro*-coup soldier who probably was just following orders

All too true.

 

[MajinCry]

Hasn't the US been funding and arming terrorists (freedom fighters) in the Middle East for years now.

Hasn't it been decades at this point? There's been that newspaper article kickin' around.

Aha! Found it!

And we got the whole Nicaragua thing, as well as Sadam 'n' Gaddafi being our guys until the US suddenly decided to off 'em.

 

[Oric]

Erdogan is no saint, but he came in with free elections, he should go with elections. Stupid coups and below the waist hits help him gain even more popularity among the voter base. This latest failed coup was the first in Turkish history where the rebels fired upon the crowds killing 160 civilians, any country related with this should pay for it IMHO, while this stands unexplained, i can not simply go on criticising Erdogan for being this or that, priorities have changed for me.

 

[norseamd]

Erdogan is no saint, but he came in with free elections, he should go with elections.

Nein. If he has broken free elections, then they are meaningless. You should know this.

Stupid coups and below the waist hits help him gain even more popularity among the voter base. This latest failed coup was the first in Turkish history where the rebels fired upon the crowds killing 160 civilians, any country related with this should pay for it IMHO, while this stands unexplained, i can not simply go on criticising Erdogan for being this or that, priorities have changed for me.

And was this the first coup where "civilians" went out into the streets and actively fought the soldiers?

 

[Oric]

Nein. If he has broken free elections, then they are meaningless. You should know this.

He has not. I was a volunteer in a watch group that stood by almost half of the voting boots in the two last elections in 2015. There was no election fraud. Innocent until proven guilty.

And was this the first coup where "civilians" went out into the streets and actively fought the soldiers?

Yes this is a first, all the previous ones, army had total control at the start

 

[MongGrel]

He has not. I was a volunteer in a watch group that stood by almost half of the voting boots in the two last elections in 2015. There was no election fraud. Innocent until proven guilty.



Yes this is a first, all the previous ones, army had total control at the start

Just another add in, it just reinforces what you are posting to begin with, not that I ever doubted it myself.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36829574

The videos are good.

 

[Turkish]

Thanks for your insight. Hope you get out safely before the boom falls, brother, as it doesn't look like Turkey is going to be safe much longer for anyone not enthusiastically toeing the government line.

Thank you.

 

[Jaskalas]

Erdogan is no saint, but he came in with free elections, he should go with elections.

If that coup had succeeded, the Islamic folks would have waged war against the military. Turkey would descend into chaos and ruins like Syria. Terrorism would take control of the land. In such a war millions would die or be displaced as new refugees.

That is what is wrong in Syria. The lesson of Iraq is this: The devil you know is a better choice. To prevent further terrorism, I strongly support maintaining peace and stability. I oppose removing Erdogan by force.

But I will still speak of his crimes against Turkey.

...any country related with this should pay for it IMHO, while this stands unexplained, i can not simply go on criticising Erdogan for being this or that, priorities have changed for me.

As already demonstrated, Erdogan controls Turkish media. You speak of some thinly veiled threats against a greater plot. Other countries, Who? We would like to hear who "Turkey" Erdogan is threatening now.

 

[Turkish]

He has not. I was a volunteer in a watch group that stood by almost half of the voting boots in the two last elections in 2015. There was no election fraud. Innocent until proven guilty.

This is true. I also volunteered at the voting stations and we didn't witness any attempts to fiddle with the votes. On the other hand, Turkey hasn't seen a fair election in the past decade. Erdogan has very strong influence over media outlets and opposition parties and their leaders hardly get any time on the air. Erdogan uses his enormous presidential discretionary fund to finance AKP rallies, TV spots, billboards, etc. My opinion is that yes, Erdogan really did get the votes he claims, but not in ideal democratic ways.

 

[MongGrel]

Thank you.

I didn't say it before myself, but best wishes to you also.

 

[Oric]

As already demonstrated, Erdogan controls Turkish media. You speak of some thinly veiled threats against a greater plot. Other countries, Who? We would like to hear who "Turkey" Erdogan is threatening now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...27ba8a-4850-11e6-8dac-0c6e4accc5b1_story.html

What is the first thing Kelly does after a failed coup ? Threaten Turkey to be expelled from NATO ?

Who is the mastermind behind this coup and in which country he stays ?

In diplomatic terms, these two lines mean a lot. My country's last successful coup was in 1980 in which "Our boys did it" was the motto of the secret service member of an Ally

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'état

Therefore, it is safe to assume that United States very well knew that there was going to be a coup and the initial reactions after an unsuccessful one is blaming the victim. Why ?

 

[MongGrel]

I think it has a lot to do with legally allowing your news to lie
You can't trust anything then

I'd even missed this one the other day.

So you define freedom of the press as selectively allowing what is allowed to be published ?

:hmm:

Back on topic.

 

[senseamp]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...27ba8a-4850-11e6-8dac-0c6e4accc5b1_story.html

What is the first thing Kelly does after a failed coup ? Threaten Turkey to be expelled from NATO ?

Who is the mastermind behind this coup and in which country he stays ?

In diplomatic terms, these two lines mean a lot. My country's last successful coup was in 1980 in which "Our boys did it" was the motto of the secret service member of an Ally

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'état

Therefore, it is safe to assume that United States very well knew that there was going to be a coup and the initial reactions after an unsuccessful one is blaming the victim. Why ?

Turkey will play by NATO rules, or it will be sent packing. It's not just Kerry saying that. American people or European people aren't going to stand for their soldiers being on the hook for defending an autocratic state with Islamist aspirations, no independent judiciary, and purges of political opponents. So shape up or ship out. If you bail on the West, or the West bails on you, look to the East to see your not too distant future.
As far as US knowing about the coup, maybe they did, and for the money we spend on CIA, I'd be pretty pissed off if they didn't. But that's not the same as organizing it. For the money we spend on CIA, I'd also be pretty pissed off if this is what they managed to organize.

 

[norseamd]

He has not. I was a volunteer in a watch group that stood by almost half of the voting boots in the two last elections in 2015. There was no election fraud. Innocent until proven guilty.

Thats funny, because most who took a look at the election did see evidence of election fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...uring_the_Turkish_general_election,_June_2015

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ns-we-used-our-new-forensic-toolkit-to-check/

https://erikmeyersson.com/2015/11/0...ction-dynamics-of-turkeys-november-elections/

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-the-turkish-elections-a-victory-with-a-price

Furthermore, clean elections do not mean anything if the results are purposefully and directly voided to preserve the AKP hegemony. You say there were clean elections, but the reality since the June 2015 elections shows that Turkey is anything but a true elected democracy.

 

[norseamd]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...27ba8a-4850-11e6-8dac-0c6e4accc5b1_story.html

What is the first thing Kelly does after a failed coup ? Threaten Turkey to be expelled from NATO ?

Who is the mastermind behind this coup and in which country he stays ?

In diplomatic terms, these two lines mean a lot. My country's last successful coup was in 1980 in which "Our boys did it" was the motto of the secret service member of an Ally

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'état

Therefore, it is safe to assume that United States very well knew that there was going to be a coup and the initial reactions after an unsuccessful one is blaming the victim. Why ?

You are a fool.

Everyone knew there was going to be a coup, but it seems you were the only one who did not, and can not seem to fathom why.

Even a limited view of this article, way back from May 30th, 2016, already makes clear why Erdogan was certain to face a coup.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2016-05-30/turkeys-next-military-coup

 

[Orignal Earl]

I'd even missed this one the other day.

So you define freedom of the press as selectively allowing what is allowed to be published ?

:hmm:

Back on topic.

That is actually quite right. I didn't have anything to do with it though
Why do you think it is that the US lingers way down there, in between Romania and Haiti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

 

[norseamd]

That is actually quite right. I didn't have anything to do with it though

Why do you think it is that the US lingers way down there, in between Romania and Haiti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

FYI, are you are saying Romania and Haiti are naturally shitty countries, and they can not physically possibly have press freedom because they are inferior to the Western World?

 

[IronWing]

I ain't joining in the pile on Erdogan Turkish apologists party right now. Living under a dictator can't be easy and Erdogan has free rein to round up dissenters and detractors by the train load at the moment. This is Erdogan's Reichstag fire and he's going to go as far he can with it.

 

[werepossum]

I'd even missed this one the other day.

So you define freedom of the press as selectively allowing what is allowed to be published ?

:hmm:

Back on topic.

The mind, she is officially boggled.

 

[Oric]

Thats funny, because most who took a look at the election did see evidence of election fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...uring_the_Turkish_general_election,_June_2015

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ns-we-used-our-new-forensic-toolkit-to-check/

https://erikmeyersson.com/2015/11/0...ction-dynamics-of-turkeys-november-elections/

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-the-turkish-elections-a-victory-with-a-price

Furthermore, clean elections do not mean anything if the results are purposefully and directly voided to preserve the AKP hegemony. You say there were clean elections, but the reality since the June 2015 elections shows that Turkey is anything but a true elected democracy.

Funny that I am defending the institution against whom I spent two Sundays from dusk to dawn from a google copy+paste operation

What has happened in Turkey since June 2015 that has been made out of the parliment and outside our constitution ? I would like to hear about it. Not liking an Islamist party and politician is one thing, claming that they are acting outside their elected power is another.