Possible coup in Turkey

[bshole]

Oh there is not doubt that American press and the American government isn't happy with Ergodan. I don't think that is debatable. Everything you posted would be evidence of that. There is whole world of difference between that and active intervention. If there was intervention without the knowledge and consent of President Obama, there would be heads rolling today. Something of that magnitude being done without informing the President is highly unlikely. Something of that magnitude occurring without Obama's consent and then Obama not going after the perpetrators is an order of magnitude less likely. We have a FREE press that lives for controversy. Something like this would make the reporter/network famous and rich so there is EVERY incentive for the press to find out if it happened. That has not happened. Unless you are willing to go down the hole of conspiracy theories, the most plausible explanation is that America was not involved BUT it did not disapprove of the coup attempt.

The reason that America does not like Ergodan is simple. His values are diametrically opposed to secular democracy. He is attempting to kill freedom at its very root.... the free press.

From amnesty international:

The human rights situation deteriorated markedly following parliamentary elections in June and the outbreak of violence between the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) and the Turkish armed forces in July. The media faced unprecedented pressure from the government; free expression online and offline suffered significantly. The right to freedom of peaceful assembly continued to be violated. Cases of excessive use of force by police and ill-treatment in detention increased. Impunity for human rights abuses persisted. The independence of the judiciary was further eroded. Separate suicide bombings attributed to the armed group Islamic State (IS) targeting left-wing and pro-Kurdish activists and demonstrators killed 139 people. An estimated 2.5 million refugees and asylum-seekers were accommodated in Turkey but individuals increasingly faced arbitrary detention and deportation as the government negotiated a migration deal with the EU.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/turkey/report-turkey/


From human rights watch:

Elected to office for a fourth term in 2015, and enjoying a strong parliamentary majority, the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) has demonstrated a growing intolerance of political opposition, public protest, and critical media. Government interference with the courts and prosecutors has undermined judicial independence and the rule of law.

https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/turkey

 

[agent00f]

OK, good questions.

First of all, let me introduce myself, who "Oric" is. I am almost 50 years old, have worked in important positions in corporate, most of my alumni and coworkers are in important positions including the government. I live in Turkey, travel abroad for business and leisure, I speak 5 languages and 3 of them fluent enough to read from source media.

Therefore i am not feeding myself from traditional mass media, I have enough network to "hear" who has done what. I am a frequent reader of P&N and as you may have noticed I don't write a lot, unless I can give some contribution.

About the US involvement and hard facts to prove it :

First of all, if you believe that there can be easily traceable evidence in international politics and manipulation, you are seriously mistaken. Nothing in the politics are 0 & 1's there are numerous shades of gray and switching of loyalties and pacts. Most of them are inaccessible for years after the event.

We have solid proof of American involvement in the 1980 coup, the famous "Our boys did it"
http://www.thefullwiki.org/1980_Turkish_coup_d'état. It is only common sense that US would like to control Turkey in way possible because it is too important for US Strategic interests for Turkey to drift on her own.

What we can incur without solid evidence, for 2016 attempt, is the clues that we can easily see :

(a) The coup was a genuine one, since 15th of July all the Political Parties have called for big rallies against the coup, condemning the FETO (Fetullah Terror Organization) as the mastermind behind the attempt. Erdogan did not have any popularity in the opposition before the attempt so any evidence otherwise would have been reflected in the opposition's statements

(b) As a member of NATO and a long standing candidate for EU, Turkey has a good record of free elections and a working democracy. Any elected government should receive what kind of a first response from the West ("self appointed Democracy & HR watcher of the globe")
- We condemn the treacherous attempt
- We support Turkish democracy and government
- Can we be of any assistance guys ?

What did come out ? (In the western media + official statements that were quiet hasty and late)
- Did Erdogan plan this coup ?
- Oh they are taking out the Generals that were our friends
- Are our A-Bombs safe in Turkey ?
- Are they torturing the coup attempters ?
etc.

Seldom I have come across articles that went deep into the story of what was happening in Turkey and little sympaty towards Turkish people who dared to stand in front of the tanks and firing soldiers (260 civilians died in 6 hours)

So, when one thinks "Why does a failed coup attempt in Turkey is portrayed as a fascist Islamist government's victory", using simple logic tells us either the Western States and Media are incredibly naive or they were very symphatetic to the coup attempt

(c) The perpatrators : Most of the generals and high ranks in the coup had long careers in NATO assignments, there are a lot of questions behind this coincidence. It is no secret that Turkish politics are a balance in between pro-USA and pro-Eurasian. This is not a religious vs secular divide, this is more on the long term stance of the country.

(d) Fetullah Gulen : This old cleric is living in the USA, his organization has opened schools around 100 countries and seems to support a light version of Sharia. His organization started during the cold war and was supported by CIA to penetrate into Africa and Asia with a different (non Western/Christian) face. His schools were closed and banned in some countries because of this hidden cause. His pupil has infiltrated almost all governmental structures in Turkey and ousted any other citizen/personell not belonging to their movement. Although his involvement was known for decades, the conservative governments always regarded well educated guys from his movement as an asset. Until they lost total control. His residence in an ally country is a good clue about the forces behind him. We know that rules and regulations are minor nuicance if he wasn't a pawn for the State of America

About Obama : No US President has a 100% say over the run of the state politics, Gulen movement is at least 45 years old, he had to choose among the options presented to him, I assume.

Thx.

You're still ignoring what a convenience the coup has become for Erdogan's massive crackdown & purge.

Why would someone so interested in democracy & the rule of law commit such a radical response to a frankly pretty weak power play?

It's also rather odd that all these no-name western generals would have knowledge of such a coup but Erdogan who has far deeper connections in the government would have no clue.

Oh there is not doubt that American press and the American government isn't happy with Ergodan. I don't think that is debatable. Everything you posted would be evidence of that. There is whole world of difference between that and active intervention. If there was intervention without the knowledge and consent of President Obama, there would be heads rolling today. Something of that magnitude being done without informing the President is highly unlikely. Something of that magnitude occurring without Obama's consent and then Obama not going after the perpetrators is an order of magnitude less likely. We have a FREE press that lives for controversy. Something like this would make the reporter/network famous and rich so there is EVERY incentive for the press to find out if it happened. That has not happened. Unless you are willing to go down the hole of conspiracy theories, the most plausible explanation is that America was not involved BUT it did not disapprove of the coup attempt.

The reason that America does not like Ergodan is simple. His values are diametrically opposed to secular democracy. He is attempting to kill freedom at its very root.... the free press.

From amnesty international:


https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/turkey/report-turkey/


From human rights watch:


https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/turkey

America is one of the more egregious human rights violators and it's pretty obvious it likes itself fine.

 

[Oric]

You're still ignoring what a convenience the coup has become for Erdogan's massive crackdown & purge.

Why would someone so interested in democracy & the rule of law commit such a radical response to a frankly pretty weak power play?

It's also rather odd that all these no-name western generals would have knowledge of such a coup but Erdogan who has far deeper connections in the government would have no clue.

There is a massive crack down. CORRECT. So far it has been limited to FETO members. How am I so sure of it ? Read my post above, if there had been attempts to take down the opposition along with Gulenists, we would have heard it already

A pretty weak power play ? Leaving a "coup" aside, the numbers tell differently, that guy had control of around 1/3rd of any government instutitions including the army. It would have taken years to select and take out these members in normal methods, their failed coup attempt is the right time to take them out without questions.

 

[Oric]

We have a FREE press that lives for controversy. Something like this would make the reporter/network famous and rich so there is EVERY incentive for the press to find out if it happened. That has not happened. Unless you are willing to go down the hole of conspiracy theories, the most plausible explanation is that America was not involved BUT it did not disapprove of the coup attempt.

You really believe that press gets rich by selling more papers/getting more ratings

Even so, a direct involvement in a Middle Eastern country's politics to take down an Islamist politician would not make a big controversial headline, in your current political stance

Third, direct involvement means boots on the ground, not usage of proxies as in this case, it will take years in the future of research to show all the links, not available today

As for Turkey's human records, there is nothing new on the western front, they existed before Erdogan and he has his own share, does not make him a worse politician in that regard compared to last 40 years.

 

[norseamd]

OK, good questions.

FYI, from your own link.

On 11 September 1979, Evren ordered a hand-written report from full general Haydar Saltık on whether or not a coup was in order, or if the government merely needed a stern warning. The report, which recommended preparing for a coup, was delivered in six months.

Are you aware of the historical politics of the Turkish Republic, the general Kemalist ideology, or Ataturks specific mission to the Turkish military in regards to the Turkish Republic?

 

[agent00f]

There is a massive crack down. CORRECT. So far it has been limited to FETO members. How am I so sure of it ? Read my post above, if there had been attempts to take down the opposition along with Gulenists, we would have heard it already

A pretty weak power play ? Leaving a "coup" aside, the numbers tell differently, that guy had control of around 1/3rd of any government instutitions including the army. It would have taken years to select and take out these members in normal methods, their failed coup attempt is the right time to take them out without questions.

So this FETO org that Erdogan named himself, did it have a membership list readily available before the coup or was he just really competent in preparing one so quickly after? Rather odd that a democratic leader ostensibly concerned about his legitimacy in the eyes of the law could/would conduct a purge without any judicial due process to validate its legality. If he's truly in power with full support of the people incl the opposition, what's the rush?

Concerning the coup itself, it's further odd that an ostensibly threatening mutiny wouldn't make much of an attempt to capture the leader while he's on vacation. Coups are confidence games, so did these FETO guy not realize what you obviously do that the rest of the country are against them?

 

[ElFenix]

Age and health does not show the innocence of an individual

The latest I checked we are not living in an Islamist fascist dictatorship. It is a democratically elected government YOU DON'T LIKE. It was a fascist coup attempt YOU SUPPORT. Many civilians were fired upon by the coup attendants, we would have seen the REAL FASCIST DICTATORSHIP if it had suceeded, which I assume you would have celebrated with a parade.

maybe

 

[sontakke]

Ya, that FETO thing just does pass the smell test. What is the actual real name of that organization? Who named it FETO? What are the membership dues? Can you link to their website? Is their an application form to fill out to join them? Where is their HQ located? How was the membership list obtained?

 

[bshole]

You really believe that press gets rich by selling more papers/getting more ratings

Even so, a direct involvement in a Middle Eastern country's politics to take down an Islamist politician would not make a big controversial headline, in your current political stance

Third, direct involvement means boots on the ground, not usage of proxies as in this case, it will take years in the future of research to show all the links, not available today

As for Turkey's human records, there is nothing new on the western front, they existed before Erdogan and he has his own share, does not make him a worse politician in that regard compared to last 40 years.

You admit that the links are not available today. Why do you ASSUME that any exist? You assume meddling based on no hard facts and in a direct contradiction of our President.

President Barack Obama rejected on Friday suggestions the US was behind a failed coup in Turkey, voicing strong support for the government in Ankara and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

"Any reports that we had any previous knowledge of a coup attempt, that there was any US involvement in it, that we were anything other than entirely supportive of Turkish democracy, are completely false, unequivocally false," Obama said at the White House during a joint news conference with Mexico's President.

Lets be clear here. You are calling our President a liar based on nothing other than word of your President AND the undisputed fact that ALL secular Western nations are upset about the human rights violations of your President. Our President is not actively attempting to shut down the press in any way whatsoever. Yours is. Your President has been singled out by many human rights organizations NOT associated with the United States for his attack on human rights. Half of our press actively LOATHES Obama and have been attacking him ruthlessly and continually for his entire term. They would love to nail his ass to the wall. If there was any real blood in the water, these sharks would be all over it. Given all this, is it possible that perhaps your President is being dishonest and that the United States was not involved?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/22/politics/obama-turkey-extradition-news-conference/

 

[Jaskalas]

This is an assertion of fact. Assertions must be backed by hard evidence. I am unaware of any facts to back that assertion. If Ergodan has the goods to back this up why has he not released that information? I am open to the possibility of American meddling but the simple assertion that it did meddle does not meet my standard of evidence for proof.

Imagine if General Campbell was guilty... that'd be high treason to be of such a stature, and to commit such a war crime against a NATO ally. These are no small potatoes to consider.

 

[sontakke]

Excuse me, aren't you the one who had posted those allegation against Cambell from couple of new-sources and the entity which calls itself as FETO ???

 

[Jaskalas]

Excuse me, aren't you the one who had posted those allegation against Cambell from couple of new-sources...

Yes, and, do you have a point, a statement, or something to say about that?

and the entity which calls itself as FETO ???

That's your made up allegation. It is Turkey Erdogan calling the Gulenists terrorists. Of course they do not call themselves that.
Which is something I already rebuked from you. Are you just here to thread crap?

 

[Turkish]

There is a massive crack down. CORRECT. So far it has been limited to FETO members. How am I so sure of it ? Read my post above, if there had been attempts to take down the opposition along with Gulenists, we would have heard it already

A pretty weak power play ? Leaving a "coup" aside, the numbers tell differently, that guy had control of around 1/3rd of any government instutitions including the army. It would have taken years to select and take out these members in normal methods, their failed coup attempt is the right time to take them out without questions.

You are mistaken. My cousin, a 35 year old female, who has voted for the CHP her entite life and is an hardcore atheist, has been fired from her job at the Istanbul Municipality, along with her entite staff. She had been working there for 13 years and nobody can convince me that she is a FETO supporter.

 

[norseamd]

You are mistaken. My cousin, a 35 year old female, who has voted for the CHP her entite life and is an hardcore atheist, has been fired from her job at the Istanbul Municipality, along with her entite staff. She had been working there for 13 years and nobody can convince me that she is a FETO supporter.

No, but he can convince himself that she is.

 

[norseamd]

Ya, that FETO thing just does pass the smell test. What is the actual real name of that organization? Who named it FETO? What are the membership dues? Can you link to their website? Is their an application form to fill out to join them? Where is their HQ located? How was the membership list obtained?

The Gülen movement is an Islamic transnational religious and social movement led by Turkish Islamic theologian and preacher Fethullah Gülen, who now resides in the United States.[1] The movement has no official name but it is usually referred to as Hizmet ("the Service") by its followers and as Cemaat ("the Community/Assembly") by the broader public in Turkey. Its largest body is the Alliance for Shared Values.

The Turkish Justice and Development Party (AKP) government, formerly an ally of Gülen, has designated the movement as a terrorist organisation under the name Gülenist Terror Organisation (Fetullahçı Terör Örgütü, FETÖ) or Parallel State Organisation (Paralel Devlet Yapılanması, PDY) since 11 December 2015 and has accused it of trying to infiltrate the Turkish state and overthrow the government during a failed coup attempt in 2016.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gülen_movement

 

[Oric]

FYI, from your own link.



Are you aware of the historical politics of the Turkish Republic, the general Kemalist ideology, or Ataturks specific mission to the Turkish military in regards to the Turkish Republic?

Haydar Saltık was my father's classmate (Military School). They used to play bridge together at our house ...

 

[Oric]

So this FETO org that Erdogan named himself, did it have a membership list readily available before the coup or was he just really competent in preparing one so quickly after? Rather odd that a democratic leader ostensibly concerned about his legitimacy in the eyes of the law could/would conduct a purge without any judicial due process to validate its legality. If he's truly in power with full support of the people incl the opposition, what's the rush?

When the opposing group has deep roots like a weed, you have to dig deep and take it out with force.

Concerning the coup itself, it's further odd that an ostensibly threatening mutiny wouldn't make much of an attempt to capture the leader while he's on vacation. Coups are confidence games, so did these FETO guy not realize what you obviously do that the rest of the country are against them?

If they were successfui, we would have been talking something else. They did not have a good plan & execution.

 

[Oric]

You admit that the links are not available today. Why do you ASSUME that any exist? You assume meddling based on no hard facts and in a direct contradiction of our President.



Lets be clear here. You are calling our President a liar based on nothing other than word of your President AND the undisputed fact that ALL secular Western nations are upset about the human rights violations of your President. Our President is not actively attempting to shut down the press in any way whatsoever. Yours is. Your President has been singled out by many human rights organizations NOT associated with the United States for his attack on human rights. Half of our press actively LOATHES Obama and have been attacking him ruthlessly and continually for his entire term. They would love to nail his ass to the wall. If there was any real blood in the water, these sharks would be all over it. Given all this, is it possible that perhaps your President is being dishonest and that the United States was not involved?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/22/politics/obama-turkey-extradition-news-conference/

US Presidents lie too. Come on, don't be too romantic about world affairs. Sometimes even the President can't admit what is the truth because it is for the nations' benefit.

 

[Oric]

You are mistaken. My cousin, a 35 year old female, who has voted for the CHP her entite life and is an hardcore atheist, has been fired from her job at the Istanbul Municipality, along with her entite staff. She had been working there for 13 years and nobody can convince me that she is a FETO supporter.

My symphaties for her. I have a long list friends/relatives with similar backgrounds in even higher places. Zero firings so far.

 

[Jaskalas]

Are we aware of any US investigations into Gulen and the coup?
When such accusations include a former General, such treason surely demands a response from our administration. I feel like I'm missing media coverage or information from our side.

 

[norseamd]

Are we aware of any US investigations into Gulen and the coup?

When such accusations include a former General, such treason surely demands a response from our administration. I feel like I'm missing media coverage or information from our side.

The current political MO in the world, and that means every country, is to be as apathetic, corrupt, and incompetent as possible, so I am not sure I would be expected much.

 

[bshole]

US Presidents lie too. Come on, don't be too romantic about world affairs. Sometimes even the President can't admit what is the truth because it is for the nations' benefit.

Yes they do lie and they are consistently NAILED for their lies. The problem in this case is the magnitude of the lie. Ergodan accuses without any hard evidence. As you know a negative is unprovable, there is nothing Obama can produce that can objectively prove that America was not involved. In much the same way, I cannot prove that the Easter Bunny does not exist. In instances like this the entity making the positive assertion bears the absolute burden of proof. If you are to be a real skeptic and think scientifically, you cannot accept Ergodan's assertions absent real objective evidence of their validity. You have provided NONE. Go back and check the thread. Lacking evidence, the only logical conclusion is that you must demand Ergodan to produce it, NOT BLINDLY ACCEPT THE ASSERTIONS WITH NO CRITICAL THOUGHT.

In this instance, I do not believe America was involved. I have a relatively high confidence level in that belief. That being said, if compelling evidence is produced that indicates America's involvement, I would accept it and CONDEMN America's involvement. To say that this was a conspiracy and therefor there is no evidence is to enter into a fantasy land inhabited by mostly by wack jobs.

 

[Jaskalas]

A changing of the guard, protection from protestors, or impending disaster?

1,000s Turkish forces surround NATO’s Incirlik air base for ‘inspection’

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

A changing of the guard, protection from protestors, or impending disaster?

1,000s Turkish forces surround NATO’s Incirlik air base for ‘inspection’

Have you got any confirmation of this ?

I can't find any valid confirmation. I'm not sure that RT is a reliable source of information.

Supposedly someone there, took a quick video outside the base, to show what is (NOT!!!!!!!) happening.

The video seems to show a normal, quiet and peaceful base.
Edit:
But the base may be closed or locked down. But that could just be because of the current climate there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ehrtgqpv-E

 

[Jaskalas]

Have you got any confirmation of this ?

I can't find any valid confirmation. I'm not sure that RT is a reliable source of information.

The tweets they cited are, what, also fake? RT is biased, it's not the onion.
Google has two other sites, of lesser reputation.
Zerohedge
israelnationalnews

It would appear they rushed to the base amidst threats. Possibly it was a protection force, the way they describe it as an "inspection".