Possible Watercooling for a video card

[PhantomKnight]

Hi I have been reading these forums for a while and I thought I might finally ask a question. I was thinking of water cooling my rig eventually and was wondering what is better a full sized waterblock for the video card or a chipset sized one.

 

[Ridesy]

Phantom,

I was advised to go GPU only and hence the MCW60's I use, as these offer better cooling of the GPU itself as cooling is not so spread out.

I have been very happy with the results as my GPU temps were high 60's to low 70's in AA/AF maxed high graphics games and these are now both 30 idle and 38/40 on the two cards after hours of 1900 x 1200 AA/AF maxed COD2.

I have copper heatsinks on the VGA RAM to help these loose their heat and have not seen any video issues that would have been caused by RAM overheating.

PS: I used the better cooling to tweak BIOS on my cards to 1.52v and push the core clock to 590 and RAM to 1.8Ghz.

Ridesy

 

[PhantomKnight]

Thanks a lot. But I am under the impression that I would then still need a fan for some airflow over the RAM heatsinks. I was hoping to eliminate as many fans as possible.

 

[rhino56]

i run a DD tyee on my x1900xt and it is a flawless full coverage block. i have done just about every type of cooling and prefer the blocks that cool everything. ramsinks do work really well but not nearly as well as water cooling them.

a full coverage block costs quite a bit more though.

 

[TrevorRC]

Full-coverage water blocks are extremely heavy, restrictive, and on the whole, unnecessary, AFAIK.

RAM does not need 'xtreme' cooling. The heatspreaders on your RAM only gain a few Mhz at most. Same goes with the GPU RAM. Sinks are all that's needed... even a MINOR amount of airflow is adequate. Low temperatures don't help RAM overclocks much.

--Trevor

Edited for rudeness.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: TrevorRC
Full-coverage water blocks are extremely heavy, restrictive, and on the whole...useless.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Trevor, but definitive statements like this have no place in a multi-faceted hobby like water-cooling. Just saying that full-cover blocks are "extremely heavy" pushes you way too far into hyperbole land. They're heavy, yes, compared to a GPU only block, but then the idea IS to cover more real-estate, right? As for being across-the-board restrictive, that's not true either. Mine aren't overly restrictive as a matter of design, just like MOST GPU only blocks. Even when a block is restrictive, as I've said before, we should look at flow as an expendable commodity. In other words, it's a resource that can be, and is exchanged for a desired effect.

As far as whether or not full-cover blocks are "useless"; I think that?s a matter that needs to be left up to the person spending the money and building the loop. No offense, but indulging in this approach to offering advice amounts to nothing more than self-justification for choices that you've made: "I decided that full-cover isn't for me, therefore full-cover is useless!"

 

[TrevorRC]

Let me take that back then.

Full coverage blocks are:
1) Heavier than standard GPU blocks AND most air cooling solutions. [Usually full copper, and they cover both sides. Double, triple, possibly even quadruple the weight, though the acrylic topped ones shave off a bit.]
2) They are USUALLY vastly more restrictive.
3) RAM does not substantially from cooling
Here:
http://www.ocmodshop.com/ocmodshop.aspx?a=249&p=714
6Mhz gain... 224->230.
And here:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Mips/RAMFreezer/4
(4Mhz gain)

XS is down so I couldn't find tons in the way of DICE/LN2; but what I found on cached links indicated a 10% gain with them.

I'll grab some more later.

Just to me, logically, I'd rather have a higher flow rate [assuming he doesn't grab a pump like an HD20], to decrease the temperature of the actual heat-emitting components [CPU and GPU cores, or Northbridge.] than gain ~4-5Mhz on the RAM. Simple passive cooling usually does the trick, and active cooling, however minute, will bring you almost in-line with water [2%]

Though, as you said, it's left up to the person spending the money. All I can do is offer what knowledge I have to help them torwards an informed decision.
-Trevor

 

[HardWarrior]

I won't even try to contend with what you say here, Trevor. However, IMO, it's important to remember that we don't have to have to openly look askance at each other for decisions that are personal in nature and intent. The seemingly simple act of openly saying that something in someone else?s computer is "useless" truly serves no purpose, and CAN create animosity were none need exist. Water-cooling forums are FULL of this sort of behavior. Why can't we at AT at least try to approach the endeavor with some comity?

The unassailable fact is that my GPU blocks function in exactly the fashion I want them too. There's no killing restriction present, even though I have TWO of them inline. My cards have hung where they are for over 7-months now and show no signs of tearing themselves loose. I didn't silly-billy decide to toss them in either. I put serious time into thinking out my loop before I spend a dime, and again, it works for me. There's nothing that anyone at XS, or anywhere else for that matter, can say that will change this.

What I say here has nothing to do with you personally, Trevor. As I've said, I think highly of you and respect your contribution here. However, TBPH, I'm deathly sick of the high-handedness that pervades water-cooling discussions. For the most part this is a hobby. As such it should be fun, not rote OR regimentation.

 

[ReDSkY]

core only is the best, just make sure you egt ramsinks tho...

the Swiftech MCW60 w/ MC14 ramsinks are great

 

[nealh]

I would imagine one solution to a full coverage block's restrictive nature could be dealt with a "stronger pump"(HD20, RD20,RD30) or 2 pumps in series like D5/MCP655, DDC+ with inlet mod, 50z....

this obvious can add cost but I would guess and I believe Hardwarrior's WCing setup probably supports this option..and provides I would bet excellent flow

Also as I understand it even the most powerful pumps can only create so much flow in watercooling loop becasue of the components..that is just because a pump is rate to say 600gallon/min..does not mean you will see this flow rate when a cpu,gpu, rad etc is in a loop

which begs a question...at what point is a more powerful pump not worth the extra cost...

Hypothetical numbers..

$300 pump that does 600gallons/sec vs say a $100 pump that performs at 200gallons/min...really worth the cost

so the questions is where is the crossover ...ie what is flow rate(gal/min, liter/min etc) where a higher flow pump provides no better true flow in your WCing loop

 

[TrevorRC]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
I won't even try to contend with what you say here, Trevor. However, IMO, it's important to remember that we don't have to have to openly look askance at each other for decisions that are personal in nature and intent. The seemingly simple act of openly saying that something in someone else?s computer is "useless" truly serves no purpose, and CAN create animosity were none need exist. Water-cooling forums are FULL of this sort of behavior. Why can't we at AT at least try to approach the endeavor with some comity?

The unassailable fact is that my GPU blocks function in exactly the fashion I want them too. There's no killing restriction present, even though I have TWO of them inline. My cards have hung where they are for over 7-months now and show no signs of tearing themselves loose. I didn't silly-billy decide to toss them in either. I put serious time into thinking out my loop before I spend a dime, and again, it works for me. There's nothing that anyone at XS, or anywhere else for that matter, can say that will change this.

What I say here has nothing to do with you personally, Trevor. As I've said, I think highly of you and respect your contribution here. However, TBPH, I'm deathly sick of the high-handedness that pervades water-cooling discussions. For the most part this is a hobby. As such it should be fun, not rote OR regimentation.

Nothing intended, I'm sorry if I offended you.

I respect your opinion--you went with full coverage blocks with solid, well thought out opinions. You are [IMO] one of the most knowledgable people on this forum.

IMO, minor aircooling is all that's necessary for sinked RAM modules. He asked for an opinion on chipset-sized block or full-coverage, I told him which I personally prefer. If someone wants to go for full-coverage blocks in order to get absolute silence or something else, by all means, go ahead--just understand that (a) stronger [or multiple] pump(s) will be necessary in the process.

Useless was strong-winded, I've edited the post. My apologies for any negative feelings, I didn't intend to offend you or anyone else.

--Trevor

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
I won't even try to contend with what you say here, Trevor. However, IMO, it's important to remember that we don't have to have to openly look askance at each other for decisions that are personal in nature and intent. The seemingly simple act of openly saying that something in someone else?s computer is "useless" truly serves no purpose, and CAN create animosity were none need exist. Water-cooling forums are FULL of this sort of behavior. Why can't we at AT at least try to approach the endeavor with some comity?

The unassailable fact is that my GPU blocks function in exactly the fashion I want them too. There's no killing restriction present, even though I have TWO of them inline. My cards have hung where they are for over 7-months now and show no signs of tearing themselves loose. I didn't silly-billy decide to toss them in either. I put serious time into thinking out my loop before I spend a dime, and again, it works for me. There's nothing that anyone at XS, or anywhere else for that matter, can say that will change this.

What I say here has nothing to do with you personally, Trevor. As I've said, I think highly of you and respect your contribution here. However, TBPH, I'm deathly sick of the high-handedness that pervades water-cooling discussions. For the most part this is a hobby. As such it should be fun, not rote OR regimentation.

I recieved my first block as a present from my brother. The second block i ended up getting to pair because nothing can beat the sexiness of 2 DD's NV-78 sli'd. But honestly speaking, yeah there freakishly heavy, but it doesnt matter because once mounted on the pci retension bracket, they dont move very much. Also due to the long length of the block, the card doesnt show any warpage.

HOWEVER!!! yes i had to add a second D5 pump upon installing my second NV-78. But then again, i have a storm and i needed the second block anyhow. Also, i think treavor is correct on that you wont get much of a big bonus but, i think i got about 2x more then what he claims. However it is kinda small, but if u figure a maze4 block will cost about 49.99 and then you add 20.99 for the swiftech ram sinks that is about 69.99. I got my NV-78's for 99.99, when they were on sale. And my brother bought my first one at full price for 129.99 <--- ouch. But if your patient and check stores every now and then, you might get lucky and get it for 99.99

BTW treavor, those tests are on main board RAM. not GPU RAM. I can vouch that the GPU ram tends to get a bit hotter then the mainboard RAM. Also, you should look up reviews on HW and mine's NV-78's im sure they got more then 4mhz increase on ram.

Anyhow, most full plates are aweful, expecially from koolance. If your going full plates, go DD's NV-78. Also id pick the maze4 over swiftechs any day of the week. The LP Acytl performs better and is more SLI friendly due to its lower profile.

 

[HardWarrior]

No offense taken, Trevor. Understand though, I'd never try to silence an opinion. What I've said here is a lot more about atmosphere than hard data.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Also, i think treavor is correct on that you wont get much of a big bonus but, i think i got about 2x more then what he claims.

Let's try a metaphor: You're tooling down the street in a Grand Prix GT. Suddenly, some guy pulls up next to you in a Cobra. Do you roll down your window and start pointing out that there's no need for anyone to own a machine like that because there's no inherent bonus that YOU can see or value? Of course you wouldn't. It would be a rude, pointless gesture and most of us have an innate understanding of this.

 

[Kakumba]

Please remember that flow rate isnt the critical thing when choosing a pump. Head pressure is what counts. use flow rate as a tie breaker, and a lesser consideration when choosing your pump(s).

To me, full coverage blocks arent worth it. if you can get them at a good deal, have strong enough pump(s) and arent worried about the weight (my computer moves a lot, so im not so keen on heavy blocks), then they are definately a viable option, and you should look into them, see if you can find some side by side comparisons to GPU only blocks.

Thats my 2 cents.

 

[HardWarrior]

:laugh: Okay then, let's try it from the OTHER side. I frankly don't see the reasoning behind not water-cooling VRAM.

GDDR3 is a known heat source, one that scales upward with the class of card. So much so that top-of-line cards all come with full-cover, forced-air heat sinks, and they aren't there just for show. Eight BGA's can, if not considered in a thermal solution, cause a PCB to slowly warp over several heating-cooling cycles, which in turn can lead to anomalous behavior. Standard "acceptable excuses" for water-cooling aside, what's most important ME is having a rock-stable box, regardless of ambient. I couldn't care less about overclocking or "quiet."

Being that a well-dissipated loop can easily handle the thermal load presented by a high-end video card (or two), where's the logic in spending hundreds of dollars on a fly video card, plus a few hundred more for good water, and THEN pulling up lame at the idea of porking out $60-$100 more for some real, purpose-driven cooling?

 

[TrevorRC]

Originally posted by: Kakumba
Please remember that flow rate isnt the critical thing when choosing a pump. Head pressure is what counts. use flow rate as a tie breaker, and a lesser consideration when choosing your pump(s).

Head and flow are intristically linked.

You get your maximum head pressure at '0' flow [limits.]

You get your maximum flow as '0' pressure necessary.

Flow is more important than head [higher flow = more heat removed], however, inadequate head pressure will result in terrible [or zero] flow.
You can have all the head in the world but no flow, and it's absolutely pointless.
Have to consider both of them simultaneously rated on a performance curve. Useless otherwise.

--Trevor

Also, HW--sheer curiousity speaking here. Do you have any numbers on heat output [in watts] of GDDR3?

A question I'd ponder is whether or not you'd get BETTER performance from single GPU blocks with sinks on the RAM.[Overall increased cooling capacity.] Might send you a low-profile Maze4 some time to test it, if you'd like

--Trevor

 

[PhantomKnight]

Hey guys thanks for all your input. I looked at the prices for full vs chip only and well I am not liking the prices ($195 for Danger Den NV-7800/7900 vs $85 for Maze I live in Aus BTW so I don't think the prices vary like $50 downunder) Also I couldn't find the Tyee downunder, but thanks anyway.

P.S What are you're guys thoughts about Peilter Cooling fo G.Cs, like the Maze4-1, or are they too extreme?

 

[Painman]

Depending on the card you have, a bit of air isn't a bad idea. The RAM may not need it, but the power regulation circuit might present an issue. Case in point, my X1900XT which ran a PWM temp of over 90º C load on ambient air after WC.

But you don't need big, loud fans to remedy these situations. They are small, localized heat sources. I run a Delta 40x28mm fan @ 7 volts over my mobo's PWM area and it's plenty cool now, stays in the 40s. I run a Delta 60x10mm fan over my vid card's PWM circuit, also @ 7 volts, it's plenty cool and there's no noise to complain about. Max vid PWM temp stays in the 60s even now in the warm months.

I'll state again, if your GPU isn't a power hog you probably don't have to worry - however mine is, as well as my CPU (opteron 165) so my power regulation circuits do get warm. But there are small, quiet fans out there that can handle the job

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: TrevorRC
Also, HW--sheer curiousity speaking here. Do you have any numbers on heat output [in watts] of GDDR3?

No, just the anecdotal. I'd love to see some numbers though.

A question I'd ponder is whether or not you'd get BETTER performance from single GPU blocks with sinks on the RAM.[Overall increased cooling capacity.]

A fair test would have to take lots of factors into account, like ambient, case airflow dynamics and such. Sounds like a job for Underwriters Laboratory.

Might send you a low-profile Maze4 some time to test it, if you'd like

I'd take you up on that. The wife is pushing for her own muscle rig these day.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: PhantomKnight
Hey guys thanks for all your input. I looked at the prices for full vs chip only and well I am not liking the prices ($195 for Danger Den NV-7800/7900 vs $85 for Maze I live in Aus BTW so I don't think the prices vary like $50 downunder) Also I couldn't find the Tyee downunder, but thanks anyway.

Why not take a look at the Silverprop GPU blocks since they're local? Lots of folks think very highly of them.

 

[MrRamon]

Full Cover block FTW.

 

[Snooper]

On my X1900XT, I used a DangerDen Maze4 (great block) with 1/2" ID hose barbs. I too was concerned about the memory as the Maze4 does not cover them at all. After feeling the 1/8" pad between stock heatsink base and the memory chips, I was less worried about it. The things are a very good INSULATOR!

What I ended up doing is attaching the copper pin type heat sinks to the memory chips. I do have a couple of large (and slow) case fans moving air, but nothing blowing directly on the video card. Even so, were before with the stock cooler I could barely get a budge with my OCs (gpu or memory), now, I can max both settings out with NO issues at all.

I'm satisfied with this arrangement and have been since the X1900XT first came out.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Snooper
I'm satisfied with this arrangement and have been since the X1900XT first came out.

Me too, WITH a lower in-case ambient and two thoroughly cooled and extremely stable video cards.

 

[rhino56]

Originally posted by: PhantomKnight


P.S What are you're guys thoughts about Peilter Cooling fo G.Cs, like the Maze4-1, or are they too extreme?

the pelts are a great option for benching if you dont have any other way to get cold temps, (phase change, dry ice) but as far as running them for everyday usage runs the electric bill way up.