Possibly the most important science breakthrough happened today (not really)

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effowe

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2004
6,021
18
81
http://scienceblogs.com/startswitha...-is-back-and-people-are-still-falling-for-it/

Well, I guess it’s that season again. The charlatan who claims to have invented a cold fusion device — the same device whose flaws were exposed here two years ago — has just held an “independent test” of his device, and there’s now a physics paper out claiming that this device works, and must be powered by some type of nuclear reaction!

Well.

Look, let’s get a few things out into the open first. If there is a cold fusion device that actually works, that can harness the power of nuclear fusion to create energy, it would change the world. We would — as I’ve written recently — have a virtually limitless source of clean and cheap energy, and would not only be able to travel to Mars, but to any other world in our Solar System. We could even, literally, reach for the stars!

But it’s not enough to just simply think about how wonderful it would be if it were true, especially because whether cold fusion can even physically happen in our Universe is currently an open scientific question. (The evidence so far says no, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t possible in principle!)

What we must do, when confronted with a claim that’s this extraordinary — that we have a device, at low-temperature, with neutral atoms, fusing atomic nuclei — is demand evidence that shows this is really true, and that we aren’t falling victim to some elaborate ruse.

What we need, if we want to take this claim seriously, is solid, incontrovertible evidence that what’s being claimed is what’s actually happening. Because one of the most important responsibilities that science has to society is to protect it from frauds, hucksters, shysters and con artists who would defraud you out of your money, time, and trust with their cheap trickery and chicanery.

I’m taking it for granted that the vast majority of you don’t have the required expertise to tell whether this is legitimate, or whether this is an example of someone trying to swindle you (and all of us) into investing in something that’s meritless. But a lot of normally smart people are getting very excited about this, including:

Sebastian Anthony over at ExtremeTech, Francie Diep over at Popular Science,
Mark Gibbs over at Forbes, and shockingly, Tommaso Dorigo of Quantum Diaries. So we’ve got to ask, is this test the real deal, or is it nothing more than crackpottery, as Lubos Motl says?

Let’s answer the following question: What would it take to convince a reasonable observer that you’ve got a controlled nuclear reaction going on here?

There are a few ways we could do it:

Allow a thorough examination of the reactants before the reaction takes place, and another of the products after the reaction, and show that nuclear transmutation has in fact taken place.

Start the device operating by whatever means you want, then disconnect all external power to it, and allow it to run, outputting energy for a sufficiently long time in a self-sustaining mode, until it’s put out a sufficient amount of energy to rule out any conventional (i.e., chemical) energy sources.
Place a gamma-ray detector around the device. Given the lack of shielding and the energies involved in nuclear reactions, gamma-rays should be copious and easy to detect.

Accurately monitor the power drawn from all sources to the device at all times, while also monitoring the energy output from the device at all times. If the total energy output is in sufficient excess to the total energy input to rule out any conventional (i.e., chemical) energy sources, that would also be sufficient.
Fair enough? These all sound reasonable to me, and I would accept any independent test of these three methods as enough evidence to pique my interest. Let’s see what the claims are.

So they’re again claiming that this is nickel + hydrogen fusion, which should result in copper. Now, it’s important to know, the last time this was claimed, the nickel that was analyzed was found to contain the isotopic ratios of normal nickel mined on Earth, while the copper (10% of the product) was found to contain the isotopic ratios of copper found naturally on Earth, not the ratio you’d expect to find copper in if nuclear fusion had occurred! (Since only Nickel-62 and Nickel-64 can fuse with hydrogen into copper, it’d be impossible to get a 10% copper product in any case!)

For this test, Rossi disallowed the examination of either the reactants or the products, claiming that it would reveal his secret catalyst. So option 1 wasn’t available.

Rossi also refused to unplug the machine while it was operating! Now, Peter Thieberger (who co-wrote this post with me, and who is a respected nuclear/particle physicist) has demonstrated just how easy it would be to keep power flowing to a device in such a way to fool an ammeter, which is a device for measuring electrical current. In other words, it would show that no current was flowing when one actually was!

So option 2 wasn’t available, either; there could’ve been more power continuously supplied to this setup than was accounted for.

There was also no attempt made to measure gamma-rays, so option 3 didn’t happen. Reading the paper, Rossi left the machine plugged in at all times, and hid a great many details during this independent test. Such as:

“… the E-Cat HT was already running when the test began…”

“…it was not possible to inspect the inside of the control box…”

So, what did this team actually do?

They measured the tube, from a distance, with an infrared camera, to determine its temperature over time. They claim to have set up radiation detectors at a distance to look for high energy photons, but do not include those results. (They say that the results are available upon request. If you get them, please post them in the comments!)

They claim that the input power is well-measured and comes out to an average of 360 Watts, over a timespan of around four days. They provide no data for this, they simply claim it. What can you do; are they telling the truth, are they telling the truth as best as they know it, or something else? Without the data, how can you know?

Well, the short of it is, it got very hot and stayed very hot — about three-to-seven times hotter than you’d expect based on 360 W of continuous power — for the entire time that it ran.

And then, when you get all the way to page 20, you find this red flag:

During the coil ON states, the instantaneous power absorbed by the E-Cat HT2 and the control box together was visible on the PCE-830 LCD display. This value, with some fluctuations in time, remained in any case within a range of 910-930 W. By checking the video image relevant to the PCE-830 LCD display, we were also able to estimate the length of the ON/OFF intervals: with reference to the entire duration of the test, the resistor coils were on for about 35% of the time, and off for the remaining 65%.

So… it wasn’t a continuous 360 Watts, but rather there was a switching between on/off states, where it was drew over 900 W of power for about a third of the time, and then far less for the other two-thirds. They also only approximate, rather than measure (or provide data for) the amount of power drawn.

Then they claim the following:

Okay, look.

I’m done pretending that this is science, or that the “data” presented here is scientifically valid. If this were an undergraduate science experiment, I’d give the kids an F, and have them see me. There’s no valid information contained here, just the assumption of success, the reliance on supplied data, and ballpark estimates that appear to be supplied “from the manufacturer.”

This is not a valid way to do science at all. And this is certainly not even close to meeting the criteria required for extraordinary evidence to back up such an extraordinary claim.

I — for once — will also encourage you to read Lubos’ take on this, because he seems to be the only person other than me who recognizes what awful pretend-science this is.

I’m not trying to rain on your parade, I’m not trying to poo-poo things we don’t have a full understanding of, and I’m not even trying to convince you that cold fusion is impossible. I’m trying to get you to recognize that there are standards of evidence you must hold these claims to, and that this crappy, crackpot paper has failed to meet them, and has failed egregiously.

But if you test it scientifically, then we’ll talk. Not before. Until then, you’re just preying on people who don’t know enough physics to see through your ruse, and I’ll be here to speak up against it, and call shenanigans.

You should head over to the article on the website to see the images that I omitted.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,182
5,646
146
So did the OP ever get any infractions for the personal insult that this thread and his posts in it are to intelligence?

So it is my fault?

Don't kill the messenger, read the report.

Edit: I'd actually go out there and buy a bottle of champagne
20 pages and not a single message of support...

From the report:



So there, rather than being mad at me, short your oil stock tomorrow It is indeed a breakthrough in science.

You should stick to "just reporting". You should take your own advice and read one of the many links that point out how ridiculously naive you have to be to fall for this guy's BS. But we know you won't.

OK,
I will step away from this thread again for a while. Lets revisit in few months and update the developments.
XO

B-b-but we'll miss out on all the revolutionary developments that will assuredly happen!

Actually, let me check my crystal ball...it tells me there won't be any.

But perhaps Rossi will end up back in jail for yet another scam.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I kind of figured that after post 504, the OP might come back, apologize, and say, "wow, sorry guys, I guess I got duped." Amazing how some people refuse to ever admit they were wrong.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,217
15,787
126
I find this explanation perfect.
from

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgib...ment_blogAndPostId/blog/comment/1337-970-1822



I’m not a geologist or physicist but I am an astrophysicist with a professional interest in nucleosynthesis.
All the elements on the periodic table you saw on the wall in high school chemistry, other than hydrogen and some of the helium, and a tiny amount of lithium, were manufactured by fusion processes in stars. A majority of stars, referred to as main sequence stars such as the sun, are happily fusing hydrogen (H) to helium (He) and releasing huge amounts of energy. They do this for most of their lives. It takes 4 hydrogens to produce 1 helium. If you looked at the atomic masses on those chemistry classroom walls, you would see that a He is 0.7% less massive than 4xH. This missing mass, which is referred to as binding energy, is where the energy that powers the universe comes from via Einstein’s famous equation. The binding energy of atomic nuclei decreases from H to Fe and then increases from Fe (and one Ni isotope) to uranium and beyond.
The problem with Mr Rossi’s e-cat is that fusion only produces energy for elements up to iron (Fe). This is because the mass of elements from from H to Fe is less than the total mass of the lighter elements fused to synthesize them. When stars start producing iron in their cores, their life is over as there are no more energy producing fusion reactions that can take place.
So, you might ask, where do the other elements – cobalt and beyond – come from? The answer is, during the dramatic collapse that occurs when the core stops producing energy in the seconds after iron synthesis begins, the gravitational potential energy of the star is released causing the the internal temperature of the star to spike to hundreds of millions of kelvins and all the heavy elements are produced and then blown out into space in the supernova explosion that ends the stars life. Heavy element synthesis requires energy input! The heavier the element, the more rare it is. Of course heavy elements can produce energy by fission where the reaction products are lighter than the starting nucleus, which is how all nuclear energy on earth is currently produced.
Now to the question of how copper (Cu) is made in nature. it happens in supernova explosions and require a huge energy input. Cu has 29 protons and either 34 or 36 neutrons. It has an standard mass of 63.546 atomic mass units (amu). Nickel has 28 protons and 30, 32, 33, 34 or 36 neutrons with an standard mass of 58.6394 amu. Also, hydrogen has one proton and either 0, 1 or 2 neutrons and an standard mass of 1.00794 amu. So depending on the isotopes involved, Ni can be fused with 1 to 9 H to make Cu. If you do the calculations for the 9 possible fusion reactions to produce Cu from Ni and H, you come up 0.05 amu short. This small mass deficit is made up by the energy input to the reaction to make it run. To put this into perspective, the fusion reaction for 58.6394 grams of nickel plus 4.857g of H to get 63.546g of copper needs an extra 0.05g of energy. Using E=mc^2, the energy requirement is about 4.49 terajoules which is 250 megawatts of power input.
There is no energy output in making copper from nickel. That is of course unless Albert Einstein, Max Planck, Enrico Fermi, Erwin Schrodinger, Richard Feynman and others are wrong and Rossi is right. When Einstein said Newton was wrong about gravity, he was courteous enough to publish a paper in 1905 pointing out the problems with Newtonian gravity and how General Relativity addressed them. Rossi is essentially declaring Quantum Theory and Special Relativity incorrect and has provided nothing to explain why. In a Rossi universe, everything would be uranium or heavier elements as the physical laws as we understand them would not apply.
I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
0
It's probably best that we don't find a new source of energy as Oil already has cause our population to sky rocket.

I'm not sure how many more people this planet can sustain.....

 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
More explosive details:

It looks like Rossi and Co got a backing from a VC company:

http://www.cherokeefund.com/

They have formed a new venture called:

Industrial Heat LLC

The president of Cherokefund is Mr. Thomas Darden

He has recently traveled to China

"Hebei Province Vice Governor Xu Ning, Provincial Science and Technology Department Director Jia Hongxing, Nierui Ping Baoding Municipal Committee, Mayor Ma Yufeng, U.S. representative Tom Darden Cherokee Fund The Chairman and the Ministry of Science and the responsible personnel attended the ceremony. Provincial Science and Technology Department and Baoding relevant departments attended the signing ceremony. Before the signing ceremony, Xu Ning, vice governor cordially met with U.S. representatives. "

and

"The signing of the Sino-US Science and Technology Innovation Park project located in Baoding, in bringing new CODA electric car project, while the nickel reactor new energy projects, new projects fireproof materials, will greatly promote local technological and economic development.” (emphasis added)"

http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/d...-park-with-nickel-reactor-new-energy-project/

http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/e-cat-knowledge-at-highest-levels-in-china/

Happy New Year! Chinese people will benefit as their government seems to have way more clue than our govt
 
Last edited:

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
Where in there does it say anything about vc backing?

The chairman of Industrial Heat LLC went to China to start a park designed to accommodate nickel reactor new energy projects

Here is another article (google translate it)

http://www.icebank.cn/news/detail_2.php?id=113 (a refrigeration company)

" Tests also showed that the nickel energy generation has very good prospects in addition to the economic costs, in the field of environmental protection also has a unique huge advantage. Nickel reaction process, there will be no emissions of greenhouse gases and other pollutants, will not produce radioactive material, but also do not need coal or oil and other fossil fuels . . .

Mr. Thomas’s [Darden's] team in the field of power generation reaction of nickel has many years of experience, both sides in respect of technical co-operation in the Chinese market application is fully in line with our industry-oriented and advantages, can unleash America’s most sophisticated technological advantage, hoping the two sides ordered the pace of cooperation and achieve mutual benefit and win-win."

"Recently, the president of the National Academy of planning a low-carbon energy" So the Chinese have a National Academy for that while stupid Americans are busy supporting muslem, Saudi backed terrorist cannibals in Syria (oil shit).
 
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deadlyapp

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2004
6,609
714
126
The chairman of Industrial Heat LLC went to China to start a park designed to accommodate nickel reactor new energy projects

Here is another article (google translate it)

http://www.icebank.cn/news/detail_2.php?id=113 (a refrigeration company)

" Tests also showed that the nickel energy generation has very good prospects in addition to the economic costs, in the field of environmental protection also has a unique huge advantage. Nickel reaction process, there will be no emissions of greenhouse gases and other pollutants, will not produce radioactive material, but also do not need coal or oil and other fossil fuels . . .

Mr. Thomas’s [Darden's] team in the field of power generation reaction of nickel has many years of experience, both sides in respect of technical co-operation in the Chinese market application is fully in line with our industry-oriented and advantages, can unleash America’s most sophisticated technological advantage, hoping the two sides ordered the pace of cooperation and achieve mutual benefit and win-win."

"Recently, the president of the National Academy of planning a low-carbon energy" So the Chinese have a National Academy for that while stupid Americans are busy supporting muslem, Saudi backed terrorist cannibals in Syria (oil shit).

Lol? Most of the oil used in the US is now sourced domestically. You're straight racist.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
Lol? Most of the oil used in the US is now sourced domestically. You're straight racist.

lol wut? If you consider that to be racist then I am one. But the main point of this thread is to let ya'll know that the oil is ending.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
I find this explanation perfect.
from

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgib...ment_blogAndPostId/blog/comment/1337-970-1822



I’m not a geologist or physicist but I am an astrophysicist with a professional interest in nucleosynthesis.
All the elements on the periodic table you saw on the wall in high school chemistry, other than hydrogen and some of the helium, and a tiny amount of lithium, were manufactured by fusion processes in stars. A majority of stars, referred to as main sequence stars such as the sun, are happily fusing hydrogen (H) to helium (He) and releasing huge amounts of energy. They do this for most of their lives. It takes 4 hydrogens to produce 1 helium. If you looked at the atomic masses on those chemistry classroom walls, you would see that a He is 0.7% less massive than 4xH. This missing mass, which is referred to as binding energy, is where the energy that powers the universe comes from via Einstein’s famous equation. The binding energy of atomic nuclei decreases from H to Fe and then increases from Fe (and one Ni isotope) to uranium and beyond.
The problem with Mr Rossi’s e-cat is that fusion only produces energy for elements up to iron (Fe). This is because the mass of elements from from H to Fe is less than the total mass of the lighter elements fused to synthesize them. When stars start producing iron in their cores, their life is over as there are no more energy producing fusion reactions that can take place.
So, you might ask, where do the other elements – cobalt and beyond – come from? The answer is, during the dramatic collapse that occurs when the core stops producing energy in the seconds after iron synthesis begins, the gravitational potential energy of the star is released causing the the internal temperature of the star to spike to hundreds of millions of kelvins and all the heavy elements are produced and then blown out into space in the supernova explosion that ends the stars life. Heavy element synthesis requires energy input! The heavier the element, the more rare it is. Of course heavy elements can produce energy by fission where the reaction products are lighter than the starting nucleus, which is how all nuclear energy on earth is currently produced.
Now to the question of how copper (Cu) is made in nature. it happens in supernova explosions and require a huge energy input. Cu has 29 protons and either 34 or 36 neutrons. It has an standard mass of 63.546 atomic mass units (amu). Nickel has 28 protons and 30, 32, 33, 34 or 36 neutrons with an standard mass of 58.6394 amu. Also, hydrogen has one proton and either 0, 1 or 2 neutrons and an standard mass of 1.00794 amu. So depending on the isotopes involved, Ni can be fused with 1 to 9 H to make Cu. If you do the calculations for the 9 possible fusion reactions to produce Cu from Ni and H, you come up 0.05 amu short. This small mass deficit is made up by the energy input to the reaction to make it run. To put this into perspective, the fusion reaction for 58.6394 grams of nickel plus 4.857g of H to get 63.546g of copper needs an extra 0.05g of energy. Using E=mc^2, the energy requirement is about 4.49 terajoules which is 250 megawatts of power input.
There is no energy output in making copper from nickel. That is of course unless Albert Einstein, Max Planck, Enrico Fermi, Erwin Schrodinger, Richard Feynman and others are wrong and Rossi is right. When Einstein said Newton was wrong about gravity, he was courteous enough to publish a paper in 1905 pointing out the problems with Newtonian gravity and how General Relativity addressed them. Rossi is essentially declaring Quantum Theory and Special Relativity incorrect and has provided nothing to explain why. In a Rossi universe, everything would be uranium or heavier elements as the physical laws as we understand them would not apply.
I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.

I’m not a geologist or physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.


I’m not a physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.


I’m not a physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.


I’m not a physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.

lol. Probably didn't have his iron today.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
I’m not a geologist or physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.


I’m not a physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.


I’m not a physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.


I’m not a physicist but I am an astrophysicist...

I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.

lol. Probably didn't have his iron today.

The Chinese think otherwise. Hence they're building a research park dedicated to
nickel reactor new energy projects and have a govt. commission of planning a low carbon energy. Also, that argument that you are quoting is based on false information. Rossi is not fusing Nickel into Copper. The author of that article is intellectually dishonest by attempting to explain something that is still a trade secret. In fact Rossi has not reveled yet how his reaction works. So there, scream intellectual dishonesty by being intellectually dishonest.
 
Last edited:

videogames101

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2005
6,777
19
81
this thread exists, and that is enough to depress the hell out of me

this is not how real science is done, this is how bullshit is sold to people like the OP
 
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