Power Supply Upgrade

May 20, 2006
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I'm upgrading my power supply because I'm getting a new video card. Do motherboards have a wattage limit?

Right now I have a Dell Dimension 8200 with an Intel 850 chipset and a 250W power supply. (I need 300W for my new card)
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
The wattage rating (as honest as it may or may not be) specifies the maximum power the supply will deliver. The amount of power actually used is a property of the system.
 

pkme2

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2005
3,896
0
0
You could do better if you went up to 450W PSU. Those Dells are nororious for using underpowered PSUs. To protect your mobo, CPU, and other computer components from burnout, get a better PSU. By the way, not those cheap $10-35 PSUs.

Since your warranty has expired, it Ok to do the upgrades, so upgrade to your heart's content.
 

Ken90630

Golden Member
Mar 6, 2004
1,571
2
81
I assume you know that Dell is known for using proprietary power supplies. You can't just go & buy any PSU on the market & replace your stock Dell unit. Dell uses proprietary connectors & wiring schemes and, AFAIK, you only have two options:

1) Buy your replacement PSU directly from Dell; or

2) Buy one from PC Power & Cooling. They make Dell replacement PSUs (on their own -- not by any arrangement with Dell). You can check 'em out at PCPowercooling.com. I'd go with this option if I were in your shoes.

Good luck.
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
2,913
1
0
Originally posted by: pkme2
You could do better if you went up to 450W PSU. Those Dells are nororious for using underpowered PSUs. To protect your mobo, CPU, and other computer components from burnout, get a better PSU. By the way, not those cheap $10-35 PSUs.

Since your warranty has expired, it Ok to do the upgrades, so upgrade to your heart's content.

Dell is very well known for marking their power supplies with a rating well below what they can actually manage.

Originally posted by: Ken90630
I assume you know that Dell is known for using proprietary power supplies. You can't just go & buy any PSU on the market & replace your stock Dell unit. Dell uses proprietary connectors & wiring schemes and, AFAIK, you only have two options:
FWIW newer Dells use completely standard power supplies. A quick search indicates the Dimension 8200 probably uses a standard ATX supply.
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
Welcome to the AT Forums.

Dell is using the standard connectors on the later models. But sometimes Dell or HP use a compact form-factor like PS/3 because of the compact cases they use, and it's hard to get high-wattage PSUs in the PS/3 form factor from the better makers. You could measure the PSU that's in there - standard ATX/PS2 PSU measures ~5.9"wide x ~3.4" high, by ~5.5" deep.

You could put that kW PCP&C unit in your Dell if it would fit. But a quality brand 400-450 watter should do just dandy.

.bh.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
This probably won`t help very much but PC Power & Cooling makes PSU`s that will fit a Dell machine..

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/home/

Silencer 360 Dell -- $79.00
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=S36D

Silencer 410 Dell-1 -- $99.00
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=S41D1

Silencer 410 Dell-2 -- $119.00
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=S41D2

Silencer 470 Dell $149.00
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=S47D

Dell Power Supply Selector
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/power_supplies/selector/dell.htm

I have no idea whether this will help or not.....prices might be out of your ballpark..
Also I could be wrong but possibly these are rebadged and have been made by Seasonic...I could be wrong!!

Also Idid not check to see if there are other companies that make PSU`s for Dell Units!!

Good Luck!!

 

Ken90630

Golden Member
Mar 6, 2004
1,571
2
81
Originally posted by: Zepper
Dell is using the standard connectors on the later models.

You could put that kW PCP&C unit in your Dell if it would fit. But a quality brand 400-450 watter should do just dandy.

If Dell has switched over to 'standard' PSUs, it must be something relatively new. It's been common knowledge for a long time that their PSUs were proprietary in terms of their wiring & connectors. I'd call Dell & ask if it were me, but it's your call.

You also don't really need a 450-watt PSU. Very few systems, except for maybe the highest-end P4 rigs running very CPU-intensive apps, will ever draw more than 250 watts or so. And that's at peak -- at idle or 'normal' usage, the draw will likely be well under 200 watts. See here for supporting evidence. I'm continually amazed at people buying ridiculously overpowered PSUs because they think it's the "safe" thing to do. Considering that many high-powered PSUs actually perform more poorly from an efficiency standpoint if the power load on them is too low in relation to their output capacity, buying an overpowered PSU can actually result in poorer performance than buying an appropriately powered one for a given rig. (Note, however, that some PSUs, like Seasonic's S12 series, reportedly perform well across the board even when they're not being "pushed" near their limit.) Waste your money if you want, but all but the most high-end computers on earth will actually run just fine on a high quality 350- to 400-watt PSU. And even then you'll still have GOBS of the proverbial "headroom" for near-future upgrades.

Now, if you plan on keeping this PSU for, say, 5 or 10 years or something and want to "future proof" yourself for what may come down the pike -- things that none of us know about right now -- maybe a case could be made for buying a monstrously powered PSU. It's always a guessing game with this stuff -- if only we had crystal balls and could see what the future was gonna hold, it would make a lot of these equipment buying decisions a heckuva lot easier.

As far as actually building a 'regular' desktop computer now that could even require 300 watts though, good luck. It ain't gonna happen. So what's the point of wasting money on a gonzo-powered PSU?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
Originally posted by: Ken90630
Originally posted by: Zepper
Dell is using the standard connectors on the later models.

You could put that kW PCP&C unit in your Dell if it would fit. But a quality brand 400-450 watter should do just dandy.

If Dell has switched over to 'standard' PSUs, it must be something relatively new. It's been common knowledge for a long time that their PSUs were proprietary in terms of their wiring & connectors. I'd call Dell & ask if it were me, but it's your call.

You also don't really need a 450-watt PSU. Very few systems, except for maybe the highest-end P4 rigs running very CPU-intensive apps, will ever draw more than 250 watts or so. And that's at peak -- at idle or 'normal' usage, the draw will likely be well under 200 watts. See here for supporting evidence. hardly the definitive authority on the subject.
I'm continually amazed at people buying ridiculously overpowered PSUs because they think it's the "safe" thing to do.
You use the word over powered...how are these PSU`s over powered?
How are these PSU`s unsafe?
Enquiring minds want to know....

Considering that many high-powered PSUs actually perform more poorly from an efficiency standpoint
Thats just not a true statement!! ER is not the definitive criteria for buying a PSU!!
There are many other things that define what a go0od PSU us.



if the power load on them is too low in relation to their output capacity, buying an overpowered PSU can actually result in poorer performance than buying an appropriately powered one for a given rig.
Again just not a factual statement. You make it sound as if all high powered PSU`s are unsafe to use.
Most PSU`s now days except for a few generic low quality PSU`s accross the board are pretty descent PSU`s. \Do you have any supporting links to support your argument?


(Note, however, that some PSUs, like Seasonic's S12 series, reportedly perform well across the board even when they're not being "pushed" near their limit.) **Note** This person actually believes that ER is everything when choosing a PSU!!
There are many many other brands besides Seasonic that perform well accross the board even when they are NOT being pushed!!

Waste your money if you want, but all but the most high-end computers on earth will actually run just fine on a high quality 350- to 400-watt PSU. And even then you'll still have GOBS of the proverbial "headroom" for near-future upgrades.

For that high quality 350 - 400 watt PSU you will pay the same as a high quality 500-600 watt PSU!! Also the problem with most 350 - 400 watt PSU`s is the 12v rail is nowhere near what it needs to be to power these machines!

Now, if you plan on keeping this PSU for, say, 5 or 10 years or something and want to "future proof" yourself for what may come down the pike -- things that none of us know about right now -- maybe a case could be made for buying a monstrously powered PSU. It's always a guessing game with this stuff -- if only we had crystal balls and could see what the future was gonna hold, it would make a lot of these equipment buying decisions a heckuva lot easier.
It still makes alot of sense regardless!

As far as actually building a 'regular' desktop computer now that could even require 300 watts though, good luck. It ain't gonna happen. So what's the point of wasting money on a gonzo-powered PSU?

When was the last time sombody told you its not about the watts at all?
Its about the various amps needed to run the rigg.....
 

Ken90630

Golden Member
Mar 6, 2004
1,571
2
81
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Ken90630
Originally posted by: Zepper
Dell is using the standard connectors on the later models.

You could put that kW PCP&C unit in your Dell if it would fit. But a quality brand 400-450 watter should do just dandy.

If Dell has switched over to 'standard' PSUs, it must be something relatively new. It's been common knowledge for a long time that their PSUs were proprietary in terms of their wiring & connectors. I'd call Dell & ask if it were me, but it's your call.

You also don't really need a 450-watt PSU. Very few systems, except for maybe the highest-end P4 rigs running very CPU-intensive apps, will ever draw more than 250 watts or so. And that's at peak -- at idle or 'normal' usage, the draw will likely be well under 200 watts. See here for supporting evidence. hardly the definitive authority on the subject.
I'm continually amazed at people buying ridiculously overpowered PSUs because they think it's the "safe" thing to do.
You use the word over powered...how are these PSU`s over powered?
How are these PSU`s unsafe?
Enquiring minds want to know....

Considering that many high-powered PSUs actually perform more poorly from an efficiency standpoint
Thats just not a true statement!! ER is not the definitive criteria for buying a PSU!!
There are many other things that define what a go0od PSU us.



if the power load on them is too low in relation to their output capacity, buying an overpowered PSU can actually result in poorer performance than buying an appropriately powered one for a given rig.
Again just not a factual statement. You make it sound as if all high powered PSU`s are unsafe to use.
Most PSU`s now days except for a few generic low quality PSU`s accross the board are pretty descent PSU`s. \Do you have any supporting links to support your argument?


(Note, however, that some PSUs, like Seasonic's S12 series, reportedly perform well across the board even when they're not being "pushed" near their limit.) **Note** This person actually believes that ER is everything when choosing a PSU!!
There are many many other brands besides Seasonic that perform well accross the board even when they are NOT being pushed!!

Waste your money if you want, but all but the most high-end computers on earth will actually run just fine on a high quality 350- to 400-watt PSU. And even then you'll still have GOBS of the proverbial "headroom" for near-future upgrades.

For that high quality 350 - 400 watt PSU you will pay the same as a high quality 500-600 watt PSU!! Also the problem with most 350 - 400 watt PSU`s is the 12v rail is nowhere near what it needs to be to power these machines!

Now, if you plan on keeping this PSU for, say, 5 or 10 years or something and want to "future proof" yourself for what may come down the pike -- things that none of us know about right now -- maybe a case could be made for buying a monstrously powered PSU. It's always a guessing game with this stuff -- if only we had crystal balls and could see what the future was gonna hold, it would make a lot of these equipment buying decisions a heckuva lot easier.
It still makes alot of sense regardless!

As far as actually building a 'regular' desktop computer now that could even require 300 watts though, good luck. It ain't gonna happen. So what's the point of wasting money on a gonzo-powered PSU?

When was the last time sombody told you its not about the watts at all?
Its about the various amps needed to run the rigg.....

Gosh ... where do I start here? I'm tempted to answer each of JediYoda's flawed arguments tit for tat, but what would be the point? This guy is well known on this site for his scatter-brained postings that are all over the map and that drift in and out of rationality. Sometimes they make some semblance of sense, while other times they ... well, you know ....

I've been restraining myself and trying to be nice until now, but I just gotta say some things I know a lot of us have been wanting to say. I don't know how old this guy is -- 14? 15? -- but he's got to be one of the most immature people on this site. Constantly arguing with other posters, twisting others' words around, fanboying, making nonsensical statements, seemingly trying to disprove everything others say as if he's some computer know-it-all, and generally alienating just about everybody. And I also gotta ask: What the h*ll is with your silly overuse of exclamation marks in so many of your posts, Mr. "Jedi"? Your writing and grammar are very poor, and you really need to learn how to use proper punctuation. In the English language, 'regular' sentences are generally punctuated with a period, not exclamation marks. Exclamation marks have a purpose, but not the way you use them.

As for your arguments re power supplies, I'll simply offer the following:

I used the term "overpowered" to describe PSUs that are more powerful than a person needs for his/her rig or is likely to need in the forseeable future. Buying a 500-watt PSU, for example, for a computer that will run perfectly on, say, a 380-watt PSU makes the aforementioned PSU "overpowered." Period. Yet we all see posts on these forums all the time (and rig profiles in people's sigs) that show modest systems with, for example, 480- or 500-watt PSUs or something when a good 380- or 400-watt PSU with sufficent amps on the 12V rail would be more than adequate. These PSUs are overpowered for what the person needs. It's that simple.

Is this a crime? Of course not. Does the person have a right to choose any PSU he/she wants? Sure. Does it harm anything? No, but the PSU may, depending on its quality, run less efficiently and therefore generate more heat than a lower-powered one in the same rig. Is it wise? Prolly not.

As for "safety," you misinterpreted what I said (as you so often do on these forums). When I said people buy PSUs that are more powerful than they need because they think it's the "safe" thing to do, I mean that they don't know how to do a wattage calculation (or
amps, if you prefer), so they just buy a gonzo-powerful PSU thinking they'll be "safe" in terms of having enough power. They really don't know how powerful a PSU to get, so they just get a gonzo-powerful one thinking they'll have all bases covered. The "safe," choice, if you will. Rather than questioning the validity of what I said and quickly assuming I was wrong (again, like you so often do on these forums), you might have asked what I meant before jumping to one of your trademark false conclusions.

Regarding the issue of efficiency and the related issues, you obviously have not read the excellent article from SPCR that I linked to earlier. If you had, you would know that what I said is not merely my opinion, but fact supported by scientific, credible testing. Now, if you wanna question the credibility of Mike Chin and the other lads at SPCR, that's your prerogative. I, for one, have found SPCR's work to be generally pretty good. Given the choice of whether to believe them or you, I think you know what my choice will be.

READ the article. ALL of it, and particularly the section called "Correct PSU Sizing for Best Energy Efficiency." Which part of that don't you understand? I'll await your apology.

Normally I might take more offense at your post and obvious trolling, but I won't because I realize you do this all the time to others on this site as well. I don't know what the source of your hostility and insecurity is, or why you feel the need to instigate trouble and argue with everyone all the time, but I'm not gonna waste my time with you. You're entitled to your opinion, as are the rest of us, and I can't keep you from posting those opinions on this site. If I can offer a bit of advice, however, you might consider the following suggestions:

1) Get a life beyond computers.

2) Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions about what others post or what you think they meant. Instead of just assuming everyone but you is an idiot, consider their point of view a little more before instantly going into attack mode.

3) Admit that you don't know it all. None of us do (and that includes me).

4) Realize that this site should be about sharing information and, generally, supporting each other. This hostility and tearing down of others that you engage in so often accomplishes nothing. (And I'm referring to your general habits, not just this one thread or posting.) There are ways to question the validity/accuracy of others' opinions/statements, and engage in constructive debate/discussion, without being overtly hostile or provocative. Generally speaking, you can expect others to treat you the way you treat them. Try being nice (or at least tactful) -- you might be surprised how much a difference it can make.

Edited to change my original intention to bow out of this thread. I'll happily discuss this subject further with members who, like Jack, wanna participate with civil dialogue. Who knows -- this could turn out to be an informative discussion after all.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
There are reasons to buy an "overpowered" PSU. All PSUs lose capacity with temp rise and age. If your rig is not in an airconditioned enviornment, it may help. If you intend to keep the PSU for a few years, it can decline and still be effective. It is also sometimes necessary to buy a larger capacity PSU to get what you need on the rails, as it may not be offered on lesser units. It is also "future-proofing" of sorts as you may add additional, power-hungry components down the road. So, buying an overpowered unit may sometimes have merit. It is certainly not a black and white issue.
 

Ken90630

Golden Member
Mar 6, 2004
1,571
2
81
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
There are reasons to buy an "overpowered" PSU. All PSUs lose capacity with temp rise and age. If your rig is not in an airconditioned enviornment, it may help. If you intend to keep the PSU for a few years, it can decline and still be effective. It is also sometimes necessary to buy a larger capacity PSU to get what you need on the rails, as it may not be offered on lesser units. It is also "future-proofing" of sorts as you may add additional, power-hungry components down the road. So, buying an overpowered unit may sometimes have merit. It is certainly not a black and white issue.

See, there's an example of a reasonable response and civil disagreement. As such, I'll respond to Jack:

I've heard that PSUs can lose "capacity" with temp rise and age. I'd argue, however, that with a good, high quality PSU, such decline should be marginal at best. One of the things I like about PC Power & Cooling is that they rate their PSUs' outputs at realistic temperatures like 50 degrees Celsius rather than the unrealistic 25 degrees (Celsius) that many PSU mfgrs use to 'fudge' their output ratings. I'd argue that if a person buys an appropriately powered PSU from a top-tier mfgr, "capacity" loss with temp and age should not be significant. If anyone can cite credible supporting evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to reconsider my stance.

Now, let's say there is some dropoff of output with temp rise in a particular PSU anyway. When are PSUs ever taxed right up to their maximum output capacity? Rarely, if ever (assuming the person isn't using some hopelessly underpowered PSU in the first place). The fact is that most PSUs in most high quality computers out there have GOBS of headroom to manage peaks and sustain themselves when operating at higher temps than at idle. If you refer to the article I linked to earlier, you will see that even the high-end P4 rig running a high-end video card and PCMark 04 and Folding @ Home -- 2 very demanding apps -- barely drew more than 200 watts. And that was at PEAK. So even if you factor in some "headroom" accounting for temp rise, or age, you'd still be nowhere near taxing, say, a good 400-watt PSU's capabilities (assuming the 12V rail is adequate, and unless it's a junky PSU, why wouldn't it be?). Right? Or am I missing something here?

It is also sometimes necessary to buy a larger capacity PSU to get what you need on the rails, as it may not be offered on lesser units.
I've heard this before too, and while I'm sure there are prolly instances in which it's true, I doubt if it happens all that often except with very high-end gaming rigs. I've been careful to confine my examples and references to high quality PSUs. High quality PSUs from the likes of Seasonic, PC P&C, Antec, Enermax, Zippy and maybe a couple others are not likely to be significantly lacking on any rails. Now, Crossfire and/or SLI are different situations, of course, but I believe I mentioned that in my original post in this thread. I'm talking about 'mainstream' computers here, not the highest of the high end.

It is also "future-proofing" of sorts as you may add additional, power-hungry components down the road.
I can agree with that. Per the SPCR article I linked to, however, there can very possibly be a tradeoff in efficiency for that "future proofing." Depends on the PSU. I guess it depends on the buyer's priorities. What I question though is that many of the "What PSU should I buy?" threads I see on this site rarely mention "future-proofing." Usually it seems like the person is trying to figure out what PSU they need now based on their video card & CPU (primarily), and I just kinda shrug my shoulders when they opt for a 500-watt mega-dollar model when a 380-watt or 400-watt would do the job just fine -- WITH gobs of headroom and, therefore, some future-proofing as well. I mean, how much headroom is enough? Really -- how much? What's the number? Why does a person need, say, an extra 200 watts beyond what a given machine is physically capable of demanding? This is silly, IMHO.

So, buying an overpowered unit may sometimes have merit. It is certainly not a black and white issue.
Agreed. I guess it comes down to how much "overpowering."

Here's what I'd like to see in order for us all to get past opinion and conjecture:

Someone post two computer profiles. Each should be a mid- to high-level gaming rig with a high-end P4 chip and high-end video card (no dual cards though). I'll even allow a bit of overclocking. :Q Also list the rest of the machine's components and their reasonably approximate power draws on the PSU. Two hard drives will be allowed. Add 'em all up, then figure on putting, say, a Seasonic S12-380 or S12-430 PSU, or a comparably powered PC P&C or Antec in said machine and explain to me -- with numbers -- why that PSU won't be enough and why a more powerful PSU will be required instead. Consider this a challenge. :evil:

I eagerly await responses. And yes, I'll be happy to eat my words if proven wrong.
 
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