Powerline Networking and Aluminum Wiring

[mfeller2]

I have "Googled" this, but so far have not found guidance:

Will powerline networking work with aluminum wiring, perhaps degraded, or is it something to avoid altogether?

My home was built at a time when aluminum wiring was common practice.

 

[MongGrel]

Aluminum wiring usually a bad idea I'd think.

Had a buddy his house burnt down using it actually.

*shrug*

 

[mfeller2]

I have heard from multiple electricians that aluminum is okay (but not current code). Switches, receptacles, etc., need to be of the type that support it. Otherwise, there are fire hazards. My house has all of the aluminum-compatible stuff.

 

[John Connor]

I would imagine it wouldn't matter really so long as the signal is being sent and received. I too have AU wiring and when you replace a switch or outlet make sure you use the AU/CU type rated outlets. etc. It's the difference in metals that will generate heat. AU was the worst decision they ever made! I hate the stuff!

 

[MongGrel]

Sorry I read that wrong to begin with, didn't realize it was all ready there.

Yeah I'd be careful,but you looked into that, more or less.

My bad.

 

[JackMDS]

Just like switches and other devices have to be compatible with the Aluminum Wiring it might be that regular Powerline Devices that meant to work on regular Copper wires are Not compatible with the Aluminum and can start a Fire (in general Powerline s*ck even with copper).

I think you should check with the senior support of the brand that you plan to buy.

 

[John Connor]

How can a transceiver start a fire?

 

[imagoon]

Yeah I agree a fire is not likely at all. As long as the outlet is AL/CU the transceiver will never touch the AL. It also isn't a high current device.

 

[JackMDS]

Well may the Benevolent contributors of info that they are Not sure about, are willing to put in writing to the OP that they assume the expense of the damage if a Fire do occur. - .

 

[imagoon]

Well may the Benevolent contributors of info that they are Not sure about, are willing to put in writing to the OP that they assume the expense of the damage if a Fire do occur. - .

Not sure what you are talking about Jack. If the receptacle is CU/AL it is legal and is code compliant. It is also safe if installed correctly. Hell they use a ton of AL wire even today in high voltage and building risers.

 

[RLGL]

How can a transceiver start a fire?

The transceiver itself may not start a fire but the corrosion that can occur between dissimilar metals can. The bare al wire needs to be coated with oxide inhibitor that is intended for aluminum wiring. Also it needs to be terminated with with lugs, crimp sleeves, screw terminals, and other devices that are made of materials that are compatible with aluminum .

 

[imagoon]

The transceiver itself may not start a fire but the corrosion that can occur between dissimilar metals can. The bare al wire needs to be coated with oxide inhibitor that is intended for aluminum wiring. Also it needs to be terminated with with lugs, crimp sleeves, screw terminals, and other devices that are made of materials that are compatible with aluminum .

I think the point was that this was assumed. Just plugging in the transceiver won't cause a fire. Now if someone swapped the receptacle with an incompatible one, the chances that the load of the transceiver isn't all that likely to cause enough heat to cause a fire either. The heat is caused by resistance in the circuit between the wire and the lugs so a couple of watt transceiver is unlikely to cause a problem while still allowing it to actually work.

 

[John Connor]

Yeah, a damn transceiver isn't going to do anything. I run an electric heater plugged into an outlet that uses aluminum wiring. So ling as the outlet is aluminum compatible you will not have any trouble.

There are houses with AL wiring and have a dryer plugged in to the AL wiring for gods sake! The last place I lived in had just that!

 

[azazel1024]

Yes, it'll work fine. Or at least it will work no better or worse than if there was CU wiring.

Unless it was wired improperly the wiring is going to have rougly the same impedence in an AL wired house as a CU wired house. The terminations will be roughly comparable, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Yes, AL is not generally great to have in a house because of the extra hassle if you need to replace any hardwired piece of the electrical system. On top of that is the additional worry that whoever wired it did it wrong (inspection or no inspection), or any home owners over time wired something incorrectly or that you don't wire it properly.

AL isn't necessarily a terrible idea. AL is what is used in powerline wiring and its what comes in to your house to your breaker box. Its generally more cost effective for larger gauge wiring. The issue is, it is not as flexible, it has a higher coefficient of expansion than aluminum, which means that terminals and wire nuts can come loose over time, especially if they were not made for AL connections. Since no one had worked with AL (not really) previously, all the experience was in CU terminations and wiring so there were a lot of problems when AL took over in the 70's and then sanity and metal prices changes and everyone switched back to CU wiring.

If you want to find something real crazy, look at the plumbing in my 1961 house for the exact opposite metal price experience. It isn't iron, it isn't steel, it isn't clay it isn't PVC or ABS...its Copper. Because in the early 1960's copper was dirt cheap and its easy to work with...so why not use 4" copper drain pipes (I probably have well over a $1,000 in CU drain pipes in my house at current scrap prices)!

 

[alkemyst]

Yes, it'll work fine. Or at least it will work no better or worse than if there was CU wiring.

Unless it was wired improperly the wiring is going to have rougly the same impedence in an AL wired house as a CU wired house. The terminations will be roughly comparable, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Yes, AL is not generally great to have in a house because of the extra hassle if you need to replace any hardwired piece of the electrical system. On top of that is the additional worry that whoever wired it did it wrong (inspection or no inspection), or any home owners over time wired something incorrectly or that you don't wire it properly.

AL isn't necessarily a terrible idea. AL is what is used in powerline wiring and its what comes in to your house to your breaker box. Its generally more cost effective for larger gauge wiring. The issue is, it is not as flexible, it has a higher coefficient of expansion than aluminum, which means that terminals and wire nuts can come loose over time, especially if they were not made for AL connections. Since no one had worked with AL (not really) previously, all the experience was in CU terminations and wiring so there were a lot of problems when AL took over in the 70's and then sanity and metal prices changes and everyone switched back to CU wiring.

If you want to find something real crazy, look at the plumbing in my 1961 house for the exact opposite metal price experience. It isn't iron, it isn't steel, it isn't clay it isn't PVC or ABS...its Copper. Because in the early 1960's copper was dirt cheap and its easy to work with...so why not use 4" copper drain pipes (I probably have well over a $1,000 in CU drain pipes in my house at current scrap prices)!

Last week I was under an older building that had tons of big copper pipes as well. It was insane. Everything newer was iron then PVC.

 

[Eug]

I've read that aluminum itself is fine, if properly checked, but I'll defer to azazel1024. However, some aren't properly checked. Also, it may affect resale, because people (and a few insurance companies' reps) will panic if they hear aluminum even it's all fine.

As for power line networking, I can't say I know anyone who has tried or posted here with aluminum wiring. However, azazel1024 says it's fine, and I believe him, and power line networking is so variable anyway that a few posts of saying it worked or not worked wouldn't help us anyway. Would the types of breakers used affect anything? Just give it a shot and tell us what you get.

As for copper, most of my house is plumbed with copper, and it was (re-)built in the 90s. When I did my basement reno we used mainly pex though. That made bonding to pipes (for ground) problematic, so we had to add a few extra wires.

 

[imagoon]

Also it is nearly 100% likely you have aluminum house feeds. The power companies generally use it exclusively so you have aluminum wire at the fuse / break panel. It is only bad when installed incorrectly. Same with copper really. I have seen plenty of 20amp breakers on 14 gauge copper amd loose terminations etc.

 

[JackMDS]

It is Not the wire per-se it is the way those systems at the time were installed.

Most of the problem occurs at the connections and the terminations which is the Enemy of Powerline too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_wire

That said, when it comes to forum the experience of One becomes the Law (a type of wishful thinking syndrome).

Many years ago when I was working on Air Force's Control Tower transmitters the insulation of my Volt meter leads were cracked. I measured the Voltage of the Out put Power Tubes and got a Jolt of 1200 V.D.C. It was a "shocking" experience but I survived.

That does not mean the it is safe to touch 1200 V.D.C.

 

[bruceb]

I do not want or trust aluminum wiring for inside my home. But as said, the power cable from the utility and into your panel board is aluminum. They have to put a special coating on the wire before it is put under the screws in the panel board, and it must be tightened with a torque wrench to a specific value.

 

[ccbadd]

Besides all the AL vs CU stuff on this threat, how about the question? Do these powerline adapters work when plugged into houses with AL wire? I don't know what frequencies they use and if that might not be compatible with AL wire.

 

[John Connor]

It should be no different than CU. YMMV depending on wiring in the house.

 

[imagoon]

Besides all the AL vs CU stuff on this threat, how about the question? Do these powerline adapters work when plugged into houses with AL wire? I don't know what frequencies they use and if that might not be compatible with AL wire.

There isn't enough of a difference in the frequency response to matter inside a home. The other stuff attached to the wire is going to cause more issues than AL vs CU.

 

[azazel1024]

It should work fine with no differences.

Of course crap terminations could change that, but you are more likely looking at the house burning down if the terminations are really that bad.

Me personally, I wouldn't want to buy a house wired with aluminum either, because I'd have no clue if the original electrician terminated it properly or if a previous home owner didn't screw something up. However, if I already had the house, so be it (TBH, I'd probably check every termination I knew about, but I am a paranoid individual).

The only time a breaker is going to cause a powerline issue is if it is an AFCI breaker, which isn't likely in a house old enough to have aluminum wiring, unless its a retro...in which case check all terminations in the house (because no idea if someone who did the work didn't do something else and screw it up).

Of course it doesn't have to be AL that burns your house down. 2 weeks after moving in to my place, a broken outlet in my basement nearly burned my house down when my wife plugged something in to it. The outlet was loose in the box a bit and when she plugged something in, it shifted it enough that an arc formed between the outlet terminals and metal outlet box. It took about a day for me to notice the "hot glue gun" smell and realize my wife didn't still have her hot glue gun plugged in and notice the charing on the outlet box.

Since, I've been replacing every outlet box when I have the chance with plastic ones. Just in case. Also all of the old 12/14 and 14/16 fabric wrapped wiring when I have access (its the old 14 gauge with 16 gauge ground, or 12 gauge with 14 gauge ground). So almost all of my basement wiring has been replaced and all of the basement outlet boxes, because I had access and I've also renovated almost all of my basement. A little of the main level stuff has been replaced too.

 

[SecurityTheatre]

I have "Googled" this, but so far have not found guidance:

Will powerline networking work with aluminum wiring, perhaps degraded, or is it something to avoid altogether?

My home was built at a time when aluminum wiring was common practice.

I had a wire smoke out in an old house with aluminium wiring. Made scorch marks all the way down the wall and all around the socket. Probably 30 seconds longer and it would have burnt the house down if I hadn't run to the back room to hit the breaker. I can't imagine if I was sleeping.

And the only thing plugged in to it was a small desk lamp (40 watt).

Aluminum can corrode, get brittle and then fail, resulting in fire. Do avoid.

That said, I don't have an answer to your original question, sorry. Why not wireless? It is usually just as reliable and far more flexible.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

The transceiver itself may not start a fire but the corrosion that can occur between dissimilar metals can. The bare al wire needs to be coated with oxide inhibitor that is intended for aluminum wiring. Also it needs to be terminated with with lugs, crimp sleeves, screw terminals, and other devices that are made of materials that are compatible with aluminum .

Really? I thought one of the nifty features of Al is that it develops a thin oxide layer and then stops there and prevents further oxidation.

BTW, many, many homes in the USA have Al in use as their service entrance wiring, which is rated 0 to 0000, including my home and every home serviced by my electrical coop. I've had it for +12 years and not an incident. Of course the Al service entrance ends at the electrical panel in my basement.