Pre-Newbie Programming Question

phisrow

Golden Member
Sep 6, 2004
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I've been using OSS for a while now, running it on all my machines, and so on; but I feel like I'm missing out both as a would-be-geek and as a real contributor to Open Source because I know pretty much nothing about coding. I'll probably have some time over the summer, and I want to see what I can do about fixing this problem.

So I ask you: First, what language should I try? Should I just right into C, where much of the OSS is, or should I start with some theoretical language(scheme or whatnot) that will teach me theory, elegance, and good habits?

For the language you recommend, are there resources, books or webpages that I simply must have?

Should I start looking at real world code and trying to figure it out and tinker with it, or will that teach me awful habits and stunt me early? If I should, should I be looking at code from some projects over others, etc?

I'm running a Linux system at the moment; is there an IDE I should be using, or do all real coders do it in textfiles in VI/EMACS (your preference here)?

Anything else I ought to know, forums, sites, words of wisdom?


Short version: Longtime OSS user realizes that he cannot code, feels inferior, seeks advice from people who can.
 

ttown

Platinum Member
Oct 27, 2003
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For a new programmer, I think you should consider Java, c/c++, or visual-basic.

I'd personally recommend Java.
Visual-basic i don't think is an option for linux -- although I may be wrong.
I think c/c++ could be overwhelming for a newbie. If you learned Java and were still interested in programming --making a transition to c/c++ wouldn't be too difficult.

Resources for Java -
For an ide, I'd recommend Eclipse. It is widely used, and free to use. If you know vi, there's a vi plugin Here for free. There's a better one that costs money, but I get by with the free one just fine for basic editing.
For resources, there's a ton of stuff at Sun -- including documentation on everything, code samples and tutorials.

If live education is better for you, you're likely to find classes for java or c/c++ at your local community college.

If you choose vb or c/c++, there's a bunch of stuff at msdn.microsoft.com

Lastly... if you're interested in programming for a living, I'd recommend learning what your employment prospects use. Call the top-5 companies you can think of working for, ask to talk to their Information Services manager, and ask them the question you just asked AT.

good luck
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
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You could get involved in Mozilla or Firefox development... there's a lot of stuff a newbie could do, in JavaScript and C/C++. If you're interested, get an IRC client (chatzilla?) and join #developers on irc.mozilla.org.
 

Ryland

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2001
2,810
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I would have to say Java. Stay away from C# and C++ for now until you have the basics down.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
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One point: you don't feel like you don't contribute just because you don't code. Simply using open source software helps because you spread knowledge about it and you test it (or validate it if it's perfect and you never have any problems ).

If you're looking to get into open source coding though, pick a language for the type of project that interests you. You'll find something for almost any language but you don't want to end up working on something that doesn't give you any pleasure. So if you like operating systems and such then c/c++ are fine (if a little difficult to learn). If you like little desktop apps then find out about the ones that you like and learn their language. There is a huge market for enterprise java stuff (web apps and such). There are also a tonne of simple (or not-so-simple) web apps written in languages like php but it's questionable whether or not we actually need any more of those
 

doornail

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
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I found python (www.python.org) to be both easy to pick up and a joy to work in. I find it a lot easier to make my Linux boxes "do cool stuff" now so it appeals to the hobbyist in me. One of the first programs I wrote lets me change channels on my satellite dish via a serial cable.
 

bofkentucky

Member
Nov 8, 2004
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Python is a great language, but a lot of it doesn't translate well to other, more widely used, langauges. For a budding C/C++/Java programer, perl, php, and javascript are closer in syntax and coding style with lots of examples out there of both good and bad code. I started with Javascript, moved to Perl and picked up C++ rather easily later on.
 

Red and black

Member
Apr 14, 2005
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While I'm not a python programmer ( I use C, Perl, Ocaml, and C++, and have used Java in the past ), from what I've heard/seen python would be a good intro. Java has too much bullshit that gets in the way of accomplishing anything, and Perl, Ocaml, and C++ are rather large and complex languages.

After you get comfortable with the general idea of programming, learning C ( not C++! ) is a good idea, so you can get a better idea of what the hardware is doing.

Oh, and the single best book you can get on programming is "The Practice of Programming" by the Bell Labs guys. I read it after being in the industry for a few years, and wished someone had given it to me freshman year of college. I had spent the previous few years learning the stuff in the book the hard way.

Oh, one more thing: "object orientation" is way over-hyped. Treating things that are different in a uniform manner is actually a pretty unusual need. Typically you need to treat different things *differently*.
 

phisrow

Golden Member
Sep 6, 2004
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Not to close the thread or anything, so if you've something else, please say it; but many thanks for the advice thus far.
 

boran

Golden Member
Jun 17, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red and black
[...]
Oh, one more thing: "object orientation" is way over-hyped. Treating things that are different in a uniform manner is actually a pretty unusual need. Typically you need to treat different things *differently*.

I just have to mention that OOP is much more than that eh. it's about having easily expandable, editable and pluggable code. but I wont go much further into that.

I'd also reccomend a good and easy starting language and then see what to do next.
 

itachi

Senior member
Aug 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Red and black
...Perl, Ocaml, and C++ are rather large and complex languages.
perl is almost as simple as c, nowhere near as complex as c++ can be, and not even one of the prevalent languages today.
After you get comfortable with the general idea of programming, learning C ( not C++! ) is a good idea, so you can get a better idea of what the hardware is doing.
now that's just ridiculous.. c is a high-level programming language, it shouldn't (and doesn't) portray the hardware that it abstracts through syntax.
Oh, and the single best book you can get on programming is "The Practice of Programming" by the Bell Labs guys. I read it after being in the industry for a few years, and wished someone had given it to me freshman year of college. I had spent the previous few years learning the stuff in the book the hard way.
oh yes, let's all just trust your opinion.. mr. c gives insight to the machine-level segmented code running in protected mode, which blocks access to anything below the 0x10000 'physical' address, that won't even really be 0x10000 when the process is given a virtual address space, apparent through C syntax, red and black.
that book is meant for people who already know how to use c/c++/java.. not for people who know nothing.
Oh, one more thing: "object orientation" is way over-hyped. Treating things that are different in a uniform manner is actually a pretty unusual need. Typically you need to treat different things *differently*.
inheritance is only one characteristic achieved through oop.. aside from that, if you plan on doing anything GUI based or if you're using the win32/directx api then it can automatically be assumed that you'll require knowledge of oop.

i'd say start with C++.. the STL makes life a hell of a lot easier when you're learning.. anything further and chances are you'll want to write your own functions/classes to reduce the overhead. the only time i'd say start with C is if you were trying to modify operating system code (which is mostly written in C).
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: itachi
perl is almost as simple as c
Yeah right. How many quoting styles are there in Perl? It's probably the most syntactically-complex popular language around.

[perl is] not even one of the prevalent languages today.

http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=160

1/3 as many projects as C or C++, that looks pretty prevalent to me. Do a search on any job site -- Perl is everywhere. It's the duct tape of the internet. If you magically made all Perl code disappear in an instant, the internet would probably completely fall apart.

After you get comfortable with the general idea of programming, learning C ( not C++! ) is a good idea, so you can get a better idea of what the hardware is doing.

now that's just ridiculous.. c is a high-level programming language, it shouldn't (and doesn't) portray the hardware that it abstracts through syntax.

Not at all? Then why do I have to tell it what size integer to use? Why does the size of a long depend on the machine? Why do floating point numbers have a limited precision that differs depending on the machine? What's the register keyword for? Sure, it's obviously less machine-specific than assembly, but it's not exactly independent from the hardware it's running on. The "high-level" moniker is what has been historically used, but in this day and age, C is pretty low-level, relatively.
 

itachi

Senior member
Aug 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Yeah right. How many quoting styles are there in Perl? It's probably the most syntactically-complex popular language around.
exactly how do all those quoting styles differ? they're not all independent with their output.
1/3 as many projects as C or C++, that looks pretty prevalent to me. Do a search on any job site -- Perl is everywhere. It's the duct tape of the internet. If you magically made all Perl code disappear in an instant, the internet would probably completely fall apart.
1/3 still doesn't put it up there with C, C++, or Java.. and if you magically made all the vhdl/verilog code disappear in an instant, you'd have no video card, chipset, your cell phone would stop working, and all kinds of other sht.
Not at all? Then why do I have to tell it what size integer to use? Why does the size of a long depend on the machine?
that's C++ too buddy.. and longs aren't fully representable on any 32-bit machine.. it requires 2 registers to be used to do any alu uop. once you switch over to a 64-bit os.. the standard int is represented by the size of the largest accessible integer register, which would be 64-bits (rax/rbx/rcx/etc..).
Why do floating point numbers have a limited precision that differs depending on the machine?
what the heck does this have to do with anything?..
precision doesn't differ depending on the machine, it differs depending on the standard. almost all processors will implement the ieee standard floating point format- 1 sign bit 8 exponent bits and 23 significand bits for single precision. anything different from that is based on whether precision is more important or the size of the representable number (and this is available to C++ too)
What's the register keyword for?
again.. what does this have to do with anything? straight C compilers are pretty much non-existant, they're all part of a C++ compiler.. and i haven't heard of any recent compiler having such poor optimization that it would require the introduction of primitive heuristics. use the register keyword, and the compiler will ignore it unless you're using it for semantics other than optimization. and the register keyword is valid for both C and C++.
Sure, it's obviously less machine-specific than assembly, but it's not exactly independent from the hardware it's running on. The "high-level" moniker is what has been historically used, but in this day and age, C is pretty low-level, relatively.
wtf.. wasn't C++ the comparison? well, u haven't made any references to that.. instead you've been babbling on about irrelevant sht that applies to both C and C++.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
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perl is alive and kicking.....very much so. I consider it a "Scripting" language more then a "programming" language, but I think the differences are minor. I could not do my day to day job without perl scripts. Perl is the duct tape of the web, I like that line.

Perl is nice, it's fairly easy to learn, and you can start doing stuff right away (simple admin/automation scripts). I don't program, so I don't know how well it transistions into a compiled language like C or C++.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Red and black
While I'm not a python programmer ( I use C, Perl, Ocaml, and C++, and have used Java in the past ), from what I've heard/seen python would be a good intro. Java has too much bullshit that gets in the way of accomplishing anything, and Perl, Ocaml, and C++ are rather large and complex languages.

After you get comfortable with the general idea of programming, learning C ( not C++! ) is a good idea, so you can get a better idea of what the hardware is doing.

Oh, and the single best book you can get on programming is "The Practice of Programming" by the Bell Labs guys. I read it after being in the industry for a few years, and wished someone had given it to me freshman year of college. I had spent the previous few years learning the stuff in the book the hard way.

Oh, one more thing: "object orientation" is way over-hyped. Treating things that are different in a uniform manner is actually a pretty unusual need. Typically you need to treat different things *differently*.

That's a very limited view of object oriented programming (OOP). Actually, I have no idea what your statementis trying to say?? "Treating things that are different in a uniform manner" I personally find OOP to be a very powerful paradigm.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
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Originally posted by: itachi
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Yeah right. How many quoting styles are there in Perl? It's probably the most syntactically-complex popular language around.
exactly how do all those quoting styles differ? they're not all independent with their output.
1/3 as many projects as C or C++, that looks pretty prevalent to me. Do a search on any job site -- Perl is everywhere. It's the duct tape of the internet. If you magically made all Perl code disappear in an instant, the internet would probably completely fall apart.
1/3 still doesn't put it up there with C, C++, or Java.. and if you magically made all the vhdl/verilog code disappear in an instant, you'd have no video card, chipset, your cell phone would stop working, and all kinds of other sht.

1/3 isn't exactly down in the noise either. Perl is used alot.

Not at all? Then why do I have to tell it what size integer to use? Why does the size of a long depend on the machine?
that's C++ too buddy.. and longs aren't fully representable on any 32-bit machine.. it requires 2 registers to be used to do any alu uop. once you switch over to a 64-bit os.. the standard int is represented by the size of the largest accessible integer register, which would be 64-bits (rax/rbx/rcx/etc..).

AFAIK, int is *always* required to be 32 bits

Why do floating point numbers have a limited precision that differs depending on the machine?
what the heck does this have to do with anything?..
precision doesn't differ depending on the machine, it differs depending on the standard. almost all processors will implement the ieee standard floating point format- 1 sign bit 8 exponent bits and 23 significand bits for single precision. anything different from that is based on whether precision is more important or the size of the representable number (and this is available to C++ too)

Sorry, you're wrong.
On my platform for example, a long is identical to an int (32 bits), but long long is 64 bits. On an IRIX box int is still 32, but now long, and long long are both 64 bits. So you could be in for a nasty suprise if you depend on long being 64 bits on IRIX, then port to x86. Ask me how I know that!

In fact, only 32 bit values are required by the standard. So on some platforms, while a double type exists, it may be identical to a float. More commonly long double is actually a double, but the point is in C/C++ you have more control, but you also have to know what your hardware & environment support. Here's a hint - take a look at stdint.h and sys/types.h and get familiar with sizeof()

Anybody have some exotic platforms out there? What's the output of this program?
I used to have access to SGIs and Alphas, but not at the moment.

#include <stdlib.h>
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

int main(void)
{
cout << "char:\t\t" << sizeof(short) << endl;
cout << "short:\t\t" << sizeof(short) << endl;
cout << "int:\t\t" << sizeof(int) << endl;
cout << "long:\t\t" << sizeof(long) << endl;
cout << "long long:\t" << sizeof(long long) << endl;
cout << "float:\t\t" << sizeof(float) << endl;
cout << "double:\t\t" << sizeof(double) << endl;
cout << "long double:\t" << sizeof(long double) << endl;

return 0;
}

On mine (X86/Linux) its:
char: 2
short: 2
int: 4
long: 4
long long: 8
float: 4
double: 8
long double: 12


What's the register keyword for?
again.. what does this have to do with anything? straight C compilers are pretty much non-existant, they're all part of a C++ compiler..

Actually, I think you may have that backwards. At least historically, many C++ compilers were often frontends to transform C++ code into C. I know that the GCC has independent C and C++ frontends.

and i haven't heard of any recent compiler having such poor optimization that it would require the introduction of primitive heuristics. use the register keyword, and the compiler will ignore it unless you're using it for semantics other than optimization. and the register keyword is valid for both C and C++.
Sure, it's obviously less machine-specific than assembly, but it's not exactly independent from the hardware it's running on. The "high-level" moniker is what has been historically used, but in this day and age, C is pretty low-level, relatively.
wtf.. wasn't C++ the comparison? well, u haven't made any references to that.. instead you've been babbling on about irrelevant sht that applies to both C and C++.

The point is that, while it's nowhere close to assembly, you are much closer to platform specific things in a lower level language like C/C++



We haven't even talked about memory management, type casting, big/little endian etc.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Back to the OP...
Editor/IDE: I just use nedit. It's a PITA, but learn to write makefiles. Or find one you like and hack it up forever to support various projects I've tried Kdevelop, but haven't been happy with it.

Language: If it's wide open, I'd look for projects you are interested in working on, then pick up the language they use.

But you don't have to code to support OSS. Bug reports are valuable. Packaging software for various distros is useful - learn how to build good RPMs. Lot's of smaller projects don't build binaries for a wide variety of platforms, and lots of users won't bother trying a project if they can't just simply drop an RPM onto their box. Spare me the arguments regarding whether this is a good or bad thing

Help with documentation & translations often needed, as are graphics work, etc. If you have more money then time or skill, plenty of organizations take donations. There are lots of ways to help.
 

itachi

Senior member
Aug 17, 2004
390
0
0
Originally posted by: Armitage
1/3 isn't exactly down in the noise either. Perl is used alot.
alrite, i'll drop out of this one..
AFAIK, int is *always* required to be 32 bits
int specifies the standard size of an integer.. for a 64-bit os it won't be 32-bits, since that will constitute half a register. only on a mips architecture (irix) does int stay at 32-bits.
Sorry, you're wrong.
On my platform for example, a long is identical to an int (32 bits), but long long is 64 bits. On an IRIX box int is still 32, but now long, and long long are both 64 bits. So you could be in for a nasty suprise if you depend on long being 64 bits on IRIX, then port to x86. Ask me how I know that!
that's just irix.. under ansi standards, long is a type modifier.. for sgi, they set the size of long as the size associated with the gprs.
i ran into something similar to that.. last semester, i couldn't get on the linux servers so i ended up going on an irix server.. tried to compile my project and ran into all sorts of errors.. fixed it all, then when i could finally get onto linux.. i ran into errors that negated all the crap that i spent my time fixing.
In fact, only 32 bit values are required by the standard. So on some platforms, while a double type exists, it may be identical to a float. More commonly long double is actually a double, but the point is in C/C++ you have more control, but you also have to know what your hardware & environment support. Here's a hint - take a look at stdint.h and sys/types.h and get familiar with sizeof()
the ieee standard for fp numbers states the format for both single and double (extended) precision numbers.. ansi/iso standards states what types are associated with each of the fp formats.. and the compiler decides (depending on the flags used) on whether the format is normal or extended.
side note.. with recent x86 architectures, the fpu has an 80-bit wide stack.. 64-bit numbers (double) are what all fp ops are based off of.. if you declare a fp number as having single precision, the fpu will always automatically convert it to/from a 64-bit number. so you should always use 64-bit fp numbers.
Actually, I think you may have that backwards. At least historically, many C++ compilers were often frontends to transform C++ code into C. I know that the GCC has independent C and C++ frontends.

The point is that, while it's nowhere close to assembly, you are much closer to platform specific things in a lower level language like C/C++
i think u missed my point.. rb stated that learning C (and not C++) will give you a better idea of what the hardware is doing.. my argument is that C++ offers the same functionality that C does in this respect.
 

Red and black

Member
Apr 14, 2005
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I stand by my previous statement that learning C will give you "a better idea of what the hardware is doing" than python will.

As for C++, it has many more features (exceptions, virtual functions, templates, etc.) that happen even though you don't explicitly spell out the behavior in your code. These features can be very convenient for someone who knows C++, but they don't help a newbie understand what is going on in their program.
 

Red and black

Member
Apr 14, 2005
152
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Originally posted by: Armitage

That's a very limited view of object oriented programming (OOP). Actually, I have no idea what your statementis trying to say?? "Treating things that are different in a uniform manner" I personally find OOP to be a very powerful paradigm.

The question is, what do you mean by OOP then?

Here is a recent post ( by a very skilled person ) to the ocaml beginners' list on the topic:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.ocaml.beginners/3144
 

Red and black

Member
Apr 14, 2005
152
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Originally posted by: itachi
Originally posted by: Red and black
...Perl, Ocaml, and C++ are rather large and complex languages.
perl is almost as simple as c, nowhere near as complex as c++ can be, and not even one of the prevalent languages today.

Wow, that's one possibly-correct statement sandwiched between two total howlers.

Originally posted by: itachi
inheritance is only one characteristic achieved through oop.. aside from that, if you plan on doing anything GUI based or if you're using the win32/directx api then it can automatically be assumed that you'll require knowledge of oop.

Fucking widget systems. It's the only example people ever use when they try to advocate OOP. Guess what? Not every program is a widget system. Just because you use an OO widget system doesn't mean you have to structure your whole program that way.

Originally posted by: itachi
i'd say start with C++.. the STL makes life a hell of a lot easier when you're learning.. anything further and chances are you'll want to write your own functions/classes to reduce the overhead. the only time i'd say start with C is if you were trying to modify operating system code (which is mostly written in C).

Yeah, those STL compile errors are *so* newbie friendly!
 

itachi

Senior member
Aug 17, 2004
390
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0
I stand by my previous statement that learning C will give you "a better idea of what the hardware is doing" than python will.
i agree.. but it wasn't python that you used as the comparison =P..
As for C++, it has many more features (exceptions, virtual functions, templates, etc.) that happen even though you don't explicitly spell out the behavior in your code. These features can be very convenient for someone who knows C++, but they don't help a newbie understand what is going on in their program.
exceptions don't occur without the programmers knowledge or intervention.. you have to encapsulate a code block with the try keyword, otherwise the program will never know how far to unwind the stack, and you'll get an error during compilation or at runtime. virtual functions are part of the oo interface.. C++ isn't a pure oopl, and until you start dealing with classes and such.. you won't encounter virtual functions or any feature that falls under polymorphism.
Fucking widget systems. It's the only example people ever use when they try to advocate OOP. Guess what? Not every program is a widget system. Just because you use an OO widget system doesn't mean you have to structure your whole program that way.
that's cos all gui based libraries are written in an oo manner.. but i'm sure you knew that. and if u don't even know how oopl works, then how in the hell would you even be able to interpret the oo based library? or let's say just say that, by some tiny little chance, microsoft decides to write the mfc so that it consists of abstract base classes with methods that must be overridden.. you can't draw a gui-based program without defining your own object.. oh wait, they already did.

learn to use the edit function.. instead of flooding the post with ur crap.
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Going from C++ to java is a lot easier than going from java to C or C++, because you understand pointers if you start with a real language. They're not that hard, but for some reason people like to think they are. If you start in a language without them, it is more painful to pick up the idea though. I know that every time I had to use Java for a class, I lost about 5 IQ points as a result of not using pointers.

I think calling C a low-level language is not unfair, because pretty much nothing goes on that you don't "explicitly spell out" (as Red and Black said). You learn that stuff doesn't just appear when you do "MyFoo bar = new Foo" - you have to understand that you're allocating the memory, and setting up all the members of a struct before you use it. For most C I've written, it would not be hard to translate it line by line into assembly language (this is a key reason why I don't think calling it low-level is bad). If you are comfortable with C, you can pick up assembly language without too much difficult... when I had to do things in assembly on exams, I usually just wrote C and translated it.

The same is not true of C++ - it would be much more difficult to hand-compile C++ programs. Java removes you even farther from the real system by adding stuff like GC, which results in you knowing *nothing* at all about the memory system.

Personally, if you're motivated and at least somewhat intelligent, I think C or C++ would be best. From those two, you can switch to pretty much every normal language easily. If you're just looking for quick results, however, it might be easier to start off in Java, because creating a graphical application in C / C++ isn't always easy.

Another option to consider is PHP, if you're interested in writing web applications. I wrote this very crappy forum in a couple weeks, while learning PHP... it's easy to get real results quickly

Perl is a VERY poor choice of starting language. It looks very ugly, and even simple things can be hard to read. It's great for scripting, but not if you want to write something useful or interesting up front. I write it almost daily at work (most of my coworkers do), and use stuff written in perl constantly, but I wouldn't suggest looking at it until you understand the basics of programming
 
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