Prebuilt PC cheaper than building

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
So why should I build?

A prebuilt gaming PC (Ryzen 1400, 8gb, rx580, MSI B350M, tempered glass case with full RGB) is $750 at Best Buy. It does have a spinning drive and a low wattage PSU, both of which I'll be replacing. It includes a junk gaming keyboard and mouse, which I won't be using.

Trying to build the same build on PCPartpicker comes out to over a thousand - if you can even source a GPU! So why should I build it myself again?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,453
10,120
126
You don't have to build. Nobody's gonna pull your Nerd Card if you buy a pre-built. Especially if you're going to customize it. I've seen some decent deals on Ryzen pre-builts myself.

PS. Got a link for that rig?

I built a few Ryzen 5 1600 rigs, but none in "pretty" cases, no RGB LED bling or anything like that.

I think I paid like $205-220 (CPU), $85-90 (mobo), and $100-120 (16GB DDR4-2400 RAM), then add case/PSU/SSD, and Windows.

Edit: More specifically,
AMD Ryzen 5 1600 $223
ASRock AB350M Pro4 $93
16GB Team Dark DDR4-2400 14-16-16-37 1.20V $115
Rosewill FBM-05 micro-ATX case (120mm intake, 80mm exhaust) $23
EVGA 600W ATX PSU (dual PCI-E 6+2 pin) $55
Adata 128GB 3D TLC NAND SATA SSD 2.5" $69
NVidia GTX1050ti 4GB GDDR5 (various vendors) $160
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit $140
total: $878
Build fee: $100
Shipping: $50-60
Grand Total: $1028

If you wanted to buy one of mine, I'd sell it for $1000 shipped.

Edit: I would advise getting a Ryzen 5 1600 or 1600X as the minimum for gaming.
 
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Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
Nah, sorry, not paying $1000 for $870 worth of hardware, when I can get $1000 worth of hardware for $750.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/cyberpo...-1tb-hard-drive-black/5833100.p?skuId=5833100

A 1400 is fine for 1080p. If I need more, I could always buy a 1600x later.

Edit: Especially considering I already have a 512gb SSD (will swap from my laptop) and a good 650w PSU to put into it when I buy it next week. Plus I've been wanting a tempered glass case for some time now. Otherwise, I wouldn't even buy a case and just use this ancient Kingwin aluminum one I have lying around.

Edit2: Here's what it would cost to build it myself, assuming I could source the GPU
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: AMD - Ryzen 5 1400 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($157.49 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: MSI - B350M BAZOOKA Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($87.89 @ OutletPC)
Memory: Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($59.88 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($47.88 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Gigabyte - Radeon RX 580 4GB Gaming 4G Video Card ($398.89 @ OutletPC)
Case: Phanteks - ECLIPSE P400S TEMPERED GLASS ATX Mid Tower Case ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Corsair - CXM 450W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($54.99 @ Amazon)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit ($89.89 @ OutletPC)
Wireless Network Adapter: TP-Link - TL-WDN4800 PCI-Express x1 802.11a/b/g/n Wi-Fi Adapter ($35.69 @ Amazon)
Keyboard: Cooler Master - Devastator II Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($26.88 @ OutletPC)
Mouse: Redragon - Centrophorus M601 Wired Optical Mouse ($11.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1046.46
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-07-15 00:19 EDT-0400

And cutting out the shit I don't need, and censored I already have:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: AMD - Ryzen 5 1400 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($157.49 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: MSI - B350M BAZOOKA Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($87.89 @ OutletPC)
Memory: Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($59.88 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Gigabyte - Radeon RX 580 4GB Gaming 4G Video Card ($398.89 @ OutletPC)
Case: Phanteks - ECLIPSE P400S TEMPERED GLASS ATX Mid Tower Case ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit ($89.89 @ OutletPC)
Total: $869.03
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-07-15 00:20 EDT-0400


No four letter words in the tech boards.

AT Moderator ElFenix
 
Last edited by a moderator:

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,453
10,120
126
Thanks for the breakdown parts lists.

Looks like that's actually a decent deal at BestBuy.
 

cfenton

Senior member
Jul 27, 2015
277
99
101
It only looks like a good deal because 580's are so absurdly over priced at the moment. You could buy a 1070 at Newegg for about $50 more and have a much better card. The 1400 is also not a great choice when you can get the 1600 for $50 more or the 1700 for $100 more. If you're looking at it from a pure value of parts perspective, it's not a bad deal, but I think you can get much better parts for only a bit more money and have a much better computer in the end.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
It only looks like a good deal because 580's are so absurdly over priced at the moment. You could buy a 1070 at Newegg for about $50 more and have a much better card. The 1400 is also not a great choice when you can get the 1600 for $50 more or the 1700 for $100 more. If you're looking at it from a pure value of parts perspective, it's not a bad deal, but I think you can get much better parts for only a bit more money and have a much better computer in the end.
Yeah, but then the shipping, and the waiting, and the probably missing the package(s) because I work overnights and sleep during the days, and the having to put it together, and maybe getting a case with a broken side panel, or a doa part, and then more shipping and waiting, etc.

If that PC doesn't work, I throw it back in the truck and exchange it 20 minutes later.

Is is the best parts? No. Are there compromises? Absolutely. Am I fine with them? For the convenience of being able to haul the thing back to Best Buy for a return or exchange with minimal fuss? Absolutely.

I know I can get a bit more machine for a bit more money, but it's like when I bought my laptop. I paid over $1100 for it - I could've built a nasty desktop for the same price back in February '16. But I wanted a laptop so I could game when I go home. So I compromised. Plus, it's not like I couldn't put in a 1600x and 1070 later if I really wanted to. Or could afford to.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
It used to be you built your own to save money and get exactly what you wanted. Now, if a person watches for sales, keeps an eye on Dell Outlet when they have a good 30% - 35% off coupon, or uses a site like Slickdeals, there are pre-built PCs that people cannot build on their own cheaper. Now it's really just about building exactly what you want.

However, I will say the last couple of pre-builds I bought, you can be very limited on what you can do for it in the future. Each system is different, so sometimes the trade-offs aren't so bad, while sometimes you are extremely limited on future options/upgrades. I'm not sure how much more into the future I will continue to build my own computers, but I will likely buy a pre-built system going forward at some point.

I tried to do this with my last build a couple of years ago, but the HP system was not very good. It had a great price, so I gave it a shot. The motherboard in it (Pegatron) was very limited, and the case was cramped with very bad airflow that caused the fans to be noticeable. I had to remove almost everything (including the video card) just to add in an extra SSD. Plus, the onboard sound was really low end, and there was no space inside to install a sound card. So I bought a case and motherboard, and installed the rest of the components in it. I ended up liking it much better by doing this.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
To quote Jim Carrey's parody of Matthew McConaughey's Lincoln commercials:
"You don't build because it makes sense. You do it because you love it."

Quite frankly, many apologists of building cannot separate the fun justification of building from the economical or pragmatic justifications in doing so, as there are scenarios where building is absolutely not an economically wise decision.

Many builders are "assemblers" who are assumers who think they know when they are actually just lapping up their incomplete interpretations of actual expert reviewers; this is extremely prevalent regarding power supplies. Hard to blame them either. It's not like interpreting benchmarks are found in books.

Something like "Prescott slower than Northwood in terms of IPC?" will happen. I bought a Prescott chip when I was much greener regarding computer hardware and just wanted to upgrade the old dog of a Celeron in 2012. That only cost me 5-10 bucks.
 

bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
39,156
12,028
146
I love to build my own PCs. I pick out all the parts after researching my options. Almost everything in my build will be better than an OEM and cheaper (for the same parts). I am my own tech support and I have connections so I don't have to pay for an OS or software. Part of the fun is planning it out, which I do months in advance. No sense buying OEM if I just want to replace the power supply, case fans, CPU cooler, case. OEMs cheap out on anything and everything.

My friend bought a craptastic OEM computer last month. Of course, I'm cleaning up all the bloatware and installing all the software that should have come on there. Stupid proprietary design made it difficult to get inside. Broke some tab that I was able to get back together. Wife walks by and comments that it looks like a toaster! She is not a techie and can still see how awful OEMs are. There's more to a case than to house the parts inside. There's ease of maintenance, cooling, expansion, noise suppression, I/O.

To the OP, if you only care about function, why have a tempered glass case and RGB? Do away with those options and save even more money. Cuz nothing says you're a gamer like tempered glass and RGB! amirite?
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
I love to build my own PCs. I pick out all the parts after researching my options. Almost everything in my build will be better than an OEM and cheaper (for the same parts). I am my own tech support and I have connections so I don't have to pay for an OS or software. Part of the fun is planning it out, which I do months in advance. No sense buying OEM if I just want to replace the power supply, case fans, CPU cooler, case. OEMs cheap out on anything and everything.

My friend bought a craptastic OEM computer last month. Of course, I'm cleaning up all the bloatware and installing all the software that should have come on there. Stupid proprietary design made it difficult to get inside. Broke some tab that I was able to get back together. Wife walks by and comments that it looks like a toaster! She is not a techie and can still see how awful OEMs are. There's more to a case than to house the parts inside. There's ease of maintenance, cooling, expansion, noise suppression, I/O.

To the OP, if you only care about function, why have a tempered glass case and RGB? Do away with those options and save even more money. Cuz nothing says you're a gamer like tempered glass and RGB! amirite?
Well, you could have done everyone a big favor and tell us what specific brand and model PC we are dealing with, since there are many lines of computers from many companies.

Aesthetic appeal has little to do with quality. She still knows nothing. She only has an opinion looks like a toaster.

Breaking tabs is always on the guy fiddling on the computer; I've broken the RAM and PCI-E tabs and I hold myself accountable for not being careful. . Some OEM computers are screw free and those that are not sometimes do come with fat thumbscrews.

Also, if anyone bothered to look, it is a Cyberpowerpc being sold on Best Buy. CPP is all about flash over quality(unlike big old dogs like Dell or HP), and the OP is wise to change out the PSU if it is indeed some "Xtremegear" or whatever Chinese no namer that is super light is put on there as CPP's typical base option. But the semi-knowledgeable "gamer-builder" lap up their flash and marketing like they are better due to their superior aesthetics.
 

bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
39,156
12,028
146
Aesthetic appeal has little to do with quality. She still knows nothing. She only has an opinion looks like a toaster.

She was dead on. For a novice, she can see what is quality and what is an appliance. Her comment showed a lot more wisdom than it appears on a message board. I knew exactly what she meant and was surprised to hear it from her.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
To the OP, if you only care about function, why have a tempered glass case and RGB?
Where did I say I was only interested in function? I want tempered glass and lighting so I can see into my case. If I didn't care about function, I would just throw everything into the plain black 10 year old aluminum case sitting here at my feet. I went from flashy, painted cases with windows and LED fans, to plain simple cases, and now tempered glass cases are so gorgeous that I want one. The RGB lighting will either be red or white, maybe blue... but then again, my RGB mouse's logo has a shifting color pattern, lol.

Now it's really just about building exactly what you want.
Yes, exactly. I was going to build a white PC using all white components inside a white tempered glass case with white or blue RGB lighting, but the cost just never came into line with what I wanted, and then the GPUs disappeared, so I dropped it.

I have connections so I don't have to pay for an OS or software
Must be nice, but you're probably one in 100,000. The rest of us mortals have to either steal things and use cracks or pay for it.

As for the specs inside the CPP, I can get an HP Omen with an i5 7400 and GTX1060 for $60 more(new) or $6 less (open box), but it comes in a proprietary case with unknown sized PSU, a laptop-like DVD drive, and probably using SODIMMs for ram. It looks like it's also using the BTX form factor. There is a very distinct lack of pictures of the inside of this model.

Edit: Damn, the HP Omen gaming desktop is ugly inside.
https://bestbuy.ugc.bazaarvoice.com/3545w/1005212/photo.jpg
 
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UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
As for the specs inside the CPP, I can get an HP Omen with an i5 7400 and GTX1060 for $60 more(new) or $6 less (open box), but it comes in a proprietary case with unknown sized PSU, a laptop-like DVD drive, and probably using SODIMMs for ram. It looks like it's also using the BTX form factor. There is a very distinct lack of pictures of the inside of this model.

Edit: Damn, the HP Omen gaming desktop is ugly inside.
https://bestbuy.ugc.bazaarvoice.com/3545w/1005212/photo.jpg

It probably will come with a 500w bronze Delta PSU (mine did anyways with the GTX 970), which isn't that bad of a unit, actually. However, I don't think it has an internal fan, so the only exhaust you will get is from the 80mm exhaust fan. My CPU, case, and video card fan had to run at higher RPMs, so I heard them a lot more in my quiet home office. When I added a SSD, I had to remove the video card support bracket sections, and the video card to have access to the SATA ports.

Plus, the pic you linked to of the case looked similar to the one I ordered (750-175se CTO):

 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
106
"So why should I build?"

Key advantages are ability to customize, far better warranties and reduce "buy cheap, buy twice" false compromises.

Some observations:-

- OEM's pay Microsoft far less for each bulk Windows license than the end user retail price of $90 per PC. That's what skews much of the "OEM vs self build same component" price comparisons. If you already had a legal retail (non-OEM) Windows 10 license that could be transferred across hardware upgrades, your $870 self-build price would fall by $90 to $780 whilst you may only see a $20-$30 reduction for the OEM if a "bare" OS-less OEM version were to be made available.

- Cheap & nasty fans. As usual for OEM's, they stick high RPM 3-pin fans in with poor fan control. Example reviews from the PC you selected : "Hello I purchased this computer. But the fans are super loud" / "The way this PC is built is the result of the noise. The fan thats so loud is a case fan. It is a 3 pin connected directly to the power supply, meaning it runs full speed always. Now if it was a 4 pin you could hook it to the motherboard, and then control the speed through the BIOS and things like that." OEM's are literally plagued with dumb design decisions like this that "over-err" on the side of caution.

- Cheap & nasty CPU cooler : "Does this come with the stock Wraith Spire CPU cooler that normally comes with the Ryzen 5 1400 CPU?" / "No it doesn't. I was a little disappointed by this. It just comes with a cheap tiny heatsink and fan. No brand name on it." / "On a side note: I'm extremely disappointed with this computer, because of the building flaws, the cheap CPU fan (non Ryzen), the outdated Bios" / "the Bios will give you a CPU temperature that is inaccurate"

- Poor warranty. Basically 1yr (all components inc PSU) which is voided for the whole rig if you overclock. Compare that to retail components where you'll often get 3yr for MSI motherboard, lifetime RAM, etc.

- 1x single 8GB chip means no dual-channel, plus increasing low RAM problems on the latest (and future) increasingly bloated games. Buying another 8GB RAM chip in 6-18 months time then "forgetting" to price it in is not being honest as to the real TCO vs a self-build that starts out with 16GB RAM.

- Cheap Bronze rated Corsair "CX" PSU's are just not that good. You already know this as you (wisely) plan to replace that too, but again "forget" to price in what you've already spent. Decent 7-10 yr warranty Gold rated PSU's with 105c rated caps are far more likely to last 10 years whereas this CX PSU and cheapo 85c caps may only last 3-5 years (hence the massive disparity in 3yr vs 10yr warranties).

This whole PC (inc PSU) has just a 1 year warranty and since it's sold as a pre-built, quite often OEM PSU's have visibly different designs or labels on that cause manufactures to reject them if returned faulty as a retail after the 1yr OEM warranty is up. How much did you pay for your "good 650w PSU" and how long is the warranty? Or alternatively, price in a second spare CX to compensate. It's all this stuff that highlights the false economy of 1:1 comparisons of cheap OEM components vs much better retail components with much higher reliability and 10x longer warranties.

- A $36 Wi-Fi "N" adaptor which doesn't even have AC isn't a particularly good buy in 2017. When I bought an Asus B150I motherboard, there was less than £10 premium between the Wi-Fi and non Wi-Fi versions, and that was for 2x2 AC (866Mbps) that's double the speed of 3x3 "N" (450Mbps).

- You also may not need exactly the same model of components if another cheaper one will suffice. Eg, you picked a motherboard with 4x RAM slots then stuck 1 RAM chip in it. Another board that's cheaper with only 2x slots may still be perfectly acceptable. Another $10-$15 saved off the self-build version.

- $400 for 4GB VRAM mid-range GPU's is just a silly buy at the moment. There was at least one "In Stock" EVGA GTX 1060 6GB listed on ncixus earlier for $290, so that's $110 saved off the self-build. If you can't find sanely priced cards when they pop-up (typically faster than PCPartPicker tracks them), then you'd be far better off spending money on stuff that isn't wildly over-inflated due to the current "mining tax inventory starvation" thing, like 16GB RAM, a better CPU, bigger SSD, etc, now and then buying a GPU later on in the year once inventory issues have eased up and prices return to normality.

So far just reading the user reviews you'll need to at least factor in and replace new PSU, case fans and buy a decent CPU cooler (on top of replacing the HDD with an SSD and maybe the "N only" Wi-FI with AC), and hope that the motherboard uses the standard BIOS and not an OEM-specific one before finally accepting a warranty that's 3-10x shorter than what buying same components retail provides. And don't overclock if you want to keep it. Suddenly the $120 savings (or just $30 if you already own W10 retail) don't sound particularly "cheap"...
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
She was dead on. For a novice, she can see what is quality and what is an appliance. Her comment showed a lot more wisdom than it appears on a message board. I knew exactly what she meant and was surprised to hear it from her.
"Appliance" is synonymous with boring and functional. Something that is poor quality is going to have issues with function at some point down the line. If are trying to use the word appliance in a derogatory sense, you are not doing a good job. Appliances are bashable because they are perceived as mundane, forgettable objects that just do what they are supposed to do reliably and without fuss. Appliances can be made beautiful and feature rich, and with the hidden cost that extra features can mean extra crippling failure points, especially in refrigerators or dishwashers. They also can operate poorly, making them memorable for all of the wrong reasons.

Some appliances are quality. Others are garbage. An old refrigerator from the 60s can still run to this day. The new ones, despite their fancy exterior, will likely die in 10-15.

Even if we assume you statements to be true, your friend's system remains a mere single data point and not something that can be generalized to all OEMs, especially if the supporting reason is that someone says "it looks like a toaster". No proper examination, and certain no peer review to establish a consensus to account for biases.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
Key advantages are ability to customize, far better warranties and reduce "buy cheap, buy twice" false compromises.

Some observations:-

- OEM's pay Microsoft far less for each bulk Windows license than the end user retail price of $90 per PC. That's what skews much of the "OEM vs self build same component" price comparisons. If you already had a legal retail (non-OEM) Windows 10 license that could be transferred across hardware upgrades, your $870 self-build price would fall by $90 to $780 whilst you may only see a $20-$30 reduction for the OEM if a "bare" OS-less OEM version were to be made available.

Well, I don't have retail OSes of any kind. OEM copies are always cheaper. Also, I think that saying "OEMs pay this much for Windows" isn't really relevant. It's always going to add to the cost of a self-build if you buy a new copy.

- Cheap & nasty fans. As usual for OEM's, they stick high RPM 3-pin fans in with poor fan control. Example reviews from the PC you selected : "Hello I purchased this computer. But the fans are super loud" / "The way this PC is built is the result of the noise. The fan thats so loud is a case fan. It is a 3 pin connected directly to the power supply, meaning it runs full speed always. Now if it was a 4 pin you could hook it to the motherboard, and then control the speed through the BIOS and things like that." OEM's are literally plagued with dumb design decisions like this that "over-err" on the side of caution.

- Cheap & nasty CPU cooler : "Does this come with the stock Wraith Spire CPU cooler that normally comes with the Ryzen 5 1400 CPU?" / "No it doesn't. I was a little disappointed by this. It just comes with a cheap tiny heatsink and fan. No brand name on it." / "On a side note: I'm extremely disappointed with this computer, because of the building flaws, the cheap CPU fan (non Ryzen), the outdated Bios" / "the Bios will give you a CPU temperature that is inaccurate"

Honestly doesn't concern me much. I'd be replacing these anyway, or buying them period, plus I have unused NIB fans lying around anyway.

- Poor warranty. Basically 1yr (all components inc PSU) which is voided for the whole rig if you overclock. Compare that to retail components where you'll often get 3yr for MSI motherboard, lifetime RAM, etc.
I've used a warranty exactly once in my life, when I had my defective S7e replaced.

- 1x single 8GB chip means no dual-channel, plus increasing low RAM problems on the latest (and future) increasingly bloated games. Buying another 8GB RAM chip in 6-18 months time then "forgetting" to price it in is not being honest as to the real TCO vs a self-build that starts out with 16GB RAM.
I already have an 8gb stick on the way.

- Cheap Bronze rated Corsair "CX" PSU's are just not that good. You already know this as you (wisely) plan to replace that too, but again "forget" to price in what you've already spent. Decent 7-10 yr warranty Gold rated PSU's with 105c rated caps are far more likely to last 10 years whereas this CX PSU and cheapo 85c caps may only last 3-5 years (hence the massive disparity in 3yr vs 10yr warranties).

This whole PC (inc PSU) has just a 1 year warranty and since it's sold as a pre-built, quite often OEM PSU's have visibly different designs or labels on that cause manufactures to reject them if returned faulty as a retail after the 1yr OEM warranty is up. How much did you pay for your "good 650w PSU" and how long is the warranty? Or alternatively, price in a second spare CX to compensate. It's all this stuff that highlights the false economy of 1:1 comparisons of cheap OEM components vs much better retail components with much higher reliability and 10x longer warranties.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151118

- A $36 Wi-Fi "N" adaptor which doesn't even have AC isn't a particularly good buy in 2017. When I bought an Asus B150I motherboard, there was less than £10 premium between the Wi-Fi and non Wi-Fi versions, and that was for 2x2 AC (866Mbps) that's double the speed of 3x3 "N" (450Mbps).
Irrelevent, as I'd be removing this and throwing it in a box. Wireless sucks.

- $400 for 4GB VRAM mid-range GPU's is just a silly buy at the moment. There was at least one "In Stock" EVGA GTX 1060 6GB listed on ncixus earlier for $290, so that's $110 saved off the self-build. If you can't find sanely priced cards when they pop-up (typically faster than PCPartPicker tracks them), then you'd be far better off spending money on stuff that isn't wildly over-inflated due to the current "mining tax inventory starvation" thing, like 16GB RAM, a better CPU, bigger SSD, etc, now and then buying a GPU later on in the year once inventory issues have eased up and prices return to normality.
GPUs are hard to find. I don't want to buy one and risk it getting sent back or stolen because I missed the package.

So far just reading the user reviews you'll need to at least factor in and replace new PSU, case fans and buy a decent CPU cooler (on top of replacing the HDD with an SSD and maybe the "N only" Wi-FI with AC), and hope that the motherboard uses the standard BIOS and not an OEM-specific one before finally accepting a warranty that's 3-10x shorter than what buying same components retail provides. And don't overclock if you want to keep it. Suddenly the $120 savings (or just $30 if you already own W10 retail) don't sound particularly "cheap"...

All accounted for already. SSD, PSU and fans are already sitting here unused ready to go. RAM is on order (hopefully I don't miss the package), and CPU cooler will be on order depending on how bad the included one is.

All very good points. Thanks you BSim500. This is the kind of post I was looking for.

The main thing about this PC is the convenience of it. I don't have to wait for shipping, I don't have to wait for GPUs to come in stock, and I don't have to deal with a full assembly myself, and I get a PC significantly better than my laptop that is capable of upgrading further down the line.
 
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Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
Key advantages are ability to customize, far better warranties and reduce "buy cheap, buy twice" false compromises.

Some observations:-

- OEM's pay Microsoft far less for each bulk Windows license than the end user retail price of $90 per PC. That's what skews much of the "OEM vs self build same component" price comparisons. If you already had a legal retail (non-OEM) Windows 10 license that could be transferred across hardware upgrades, your $870 self-build price would fall by $90 to $780 whilst you may only see a $20-$30 reduction for the OEM if a "bare" OS-less OEM version were to be made available.

- Cheap & nasty fans. As usual for OEM's, they stick high RPM 3-pin fans in with poor fan control. Example reviews from the PC you selected : "Hello I purchased this computer. But the fans are super loud" / "The way this PC is built is the result of the noise. The fan thats so loud is a case fan. It is a 3 pin connected directly to the power supply, meaning it runs full speed always. Now if it was a 4 pin you could hook it to the motherboard, and then control the speed through the BIOS and things like that." OEM's are literally plagued with dumb design decisions like this that "over-err" on the side of caution.

- Cheap & nasty CPU cooler : "Does this come with the stock Wraith Spire CPU cooler that normally comes with the Ryzen 5 1400 CPU?" / "No it doesn't. I was a little disappointed by this. It just comes with a cheap tiny heatsink and fan. No brand name on it." / "On a side note: I'm extremely disappointed with this computer, because of the building flaws, the cheap CPU fan (non Ryzen), the outdated Bios" / "the Bios will give you a CPU temperature that is inaccurate"

- Poor warranty. Basically 1yr (all components inc PSU) which is voided for the whole rig if you overclock. Compare that to retail components where you'll often get 3yr for MSI motherboard, lifetime RAM, etc.

- 1x single 8GB chip means no dual-channel, plus increasing low RAM problems on the latest (and future) increasingly bloated games. Buying another 8GB RAM chip in 6-18 months time then "forgetting" to price it in is not being honest as to the real TCO vs a self-build that starts out with 16GB RAM.

- Cheap Bronze rated Corsair "CX" PSU's are just not that good. You already know this as you (wisely) plan to replace that too, but again "forget" to price in what you've already spent. Decent 7-10 yr warranty Gold rated PSU's with 105c rated caps are far more likely to last 10 years whereas this CX PSU and cheapo 85c caps may only last 3-5 years (hence the massive disparity in 3yr vs 10yr warranties).

This whole PC (inc PSU) has just a 1 year warranty and since it's sold as a pre-built, quite often OEM PSU's have visibly different designs or labels on that cause manufactures to reject them if returned faulty as a retail after the 1yr OEM warranty is up. How much did you pay for your "good 650w PSU" and how long is the warranty? Or alternatively, price in a second spare CX to compensate. It's all this stuff that highlights the false economy of 1:1 comparisons of cheap OEM components vs much better retail components with much higher reliability and 10x longer warranties.

- A $36 Wi-Fi "N" adaptor which doesn't even have AC isn't a particularly good buy in 2017. When I bought an Asus B150I motherboard, there was less than £10 premium between the Wi-Fi and non Wi-Fi versions, and that was for 2x2 AC (866Mbps) that's double the speed of 3x3 "N" (450Mbps).

- You also may not need exactly the same model of components if another cheaper one will suffice. Eg, you picked a motherboard with 4x RAM slots then stuck 1 RAM chip in it. Another board that's cheaper with only 2x slots may still be perfectly acceptable. Another $10-$15 saved off the self-build version.

- $400 for 4GB VRAM mid-range GPU's is just a silly buy at the moment. There was at least one "In Stock" EVGA GTX 1060 6GB listed on ncixus earlier for $290, so that's $110 saved off the self-build. If you can't find sanely priced cards when they pop-up (typically faster than PCPartPicker tracks them), then you'd be far better off spending money on stuff that isn't wildly over-inflated due to the current "mining tax inventory starvation" thing, like 16GB RAM, a better CPU, bigger SSD, etc, now and then buying a GPU later on in the year once inventory issues have eased up and prices return to normality.

So far just reading the user reviews you'll need to at least factor in and replace new PSU, case fans and buy a decent CPU cooler (on top of replacing the HDD with an SSD and maybe the "N only" Wi-FI with AC), and hope that the motherboard uses the standard BIOS and not an OEM-specific one before finally accepting a warranty that's 3-10x shorter than what buying same components retail provides. And don't overclock if you want to keep it. Suddenly the $120 savings (or just $30 if you already own W10 retail) don't sound particularly "cheap"...
The GUA2600BST does have Wireless-AC. It's right in the description.

CyberPowerPc seems like a strict assembler of parts as well, and hence the boards they used are from third parties and not custom made.

If you had read the most helpful review, the fans can be quieted down with a small tweak, a tweak any builder should not be afraid to do:
Pros. This is priced equivalent of what I see PCPartPicker shows for the parts individually. The parts are actual name brand consumer products and as such are higher quality than many manufacturers parts. Kudos for that. Keyboard and mouse have not been tried as I have my own but they seem nice enough.
Cons. The fans are noisy. For some reason they went with DC fans instead of PWM and removed the fan controller from the standard case setup. The BIOS is set as PWM and the case fans are wired to the power supply using adapters. Easy enough to fix. Unhook the case fans and connect them to the motherboard headers. Go into BIOS and set the CPU and System fans to DC with Smart Fan on. This will quiet the machine down a ton. Before it sounded like a jet engine. Now it is much quieter when it runs. I knocked off the one star as I see others have also questioned the fans and this is the type of thing that should have been caught in quality control. It is abnormal to use non-PWM fans on a CPU and even more abnormal to not set the fans up for proper DC control when you do use DC fans.
The difference between OEM PSUs and retail varies on what the decides to put in there. But the difference is moreso whether it get to dies on its own accord in 7 years or the user intentionally retires it despite paying a premium for something that should last 2 decades. I don't believe CPP uses the CX series though, but something worse called Xtremegear.

He priced out wholle system completely on PcPartPicker and it came out to 1046 dollars. His expense starts at $750, giving him $300 of room to upgrade stuff if he so desires.
 

bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
39,156
12,028
146
"Appliance" is synonymous with boring and functional. Something that is poor quality is going to have issues with function at some point down the line. If are trying to use the word appliance in a derogatory sense, you are not doing a good job. Appliances are bashable because they are perceived as mundane, forgettable objects that just do what they are supposed to do reliably and without fuss. Appliances can be made beautiful and feature rich, and with the hidden cost that extra features can mean extra crippling failure points, especially in refrigerators or dishwashers. They also can operate poorly, making them memorable for all of the wrong reasons.

Some appliances are quality. Others are garbage. An old refrigerator from the 60s can still run to this day. The new ones, despite their fancy exterior, will likely die in 10-15.

Even if we assume you statements to be true, your friend's system remains a mere single data point and not something that can be generalized to all OEMs, especially if the supporting reason is that someone says "it looks like a toaster". No proper examination, and certain no peer review to establish a consensus to account for biases.

Appliance, as in throw away. That's what OEMs build.
 

bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
39,156
12,028
146
Now, boutique would be different. They're pretty much on the same level as me. It's the "Do I want to pay someone else to do the activiity that I love?" decision. That's a toughie.
 
May 13, 2009
12,333
612
126
You likely won't be able to overclock even with a better cpu cooler. The motherboard in that thing is likely garbage.
That in of itself is value you aren't including. Quality isn't cheap. I don't buy prebuilt because computers are a passion of mine and I can easily justify a couple hundred to have a quality build.
Also the video card is likely oem which I don't do either. I much prefer aftermarket. Quiet, cooler, better oc ing.
 
Reactions: VirtualLarry

bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
39,156
12,028
146
You likely won't be able to overclock even with a better cpu cooler. The motherboard in that thing is likely garbage.
That in of itself is value you aren't including. Quality isn't cheap. I don't buy prebuilt because computers are a passion of mine and I can easily justify a couple hundred to have a quality build.
Also the video card is likely oem which I don't do either. I much prefer aftermarket. Quiet, cooler, better oc ing.

Agreed for the most part. The motherboard isn't that bad. Asus Prime B350M-A. It's just not an enthusiast board. The OP says he doesn't love building PCs any longer. So, it's not worth the hassle to him.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
Appliance, as in throw away. That's what OEMs build.
I can agree partially. PCs that are built to die with unrepairable failures that a partswapper cannot fix can be considered to be made a throwaway. But for something that dies but the user just doesn't know how to repair or doesn't want to repair to continue using it, such as replacing a PSU or hard drive, such PCs are prematurely thrown away before the mobo reached the end of its life partially because of ignorance about computers.

Higher grade workstations and desktops are more likely to be endowed with better hardware and can last just as long as a built computer with a $100 motherboard.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
This computer was actually $650 around the end of June since I found an old thread on Slickdeals.
 
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