Originally posted by: VIAN
Link
All I have to say about this is: Gabe Newell is a D|ck.
Possibly ATI too.
Given the fact that even high end NVIDIA cards would have been A JOKE regarding performance in HL2, Valve had to postpone their release.
Did the voucher come with the 9600XT or not?
So initially the leak was the problem but things changed, mainly as a result of the leak. So what? Release dates change all the time. The voucher thing probably was a little over the top but fundamentally this isn't all that strange.
In any case I love it how nVidia fanboys are now using this to discredit Gabe and call him a liar about his anti-nVidia comments. Make no mistake, nVidia was cheating at the time (and are possible doing so today as well) and ATi's SM 2.0 performance was superior across the board. The fact that the game slipped makes no difference to the fact that Gabe knows what he's talking about when it comes to 3D coding.
And finally, this topic should be in software since it has absolutely nothing to do with video. Yet again VIAN is using the forum as his personal dumping ground.
So if there was no leak the team wouldn't have been demoralised and the game would have been finished sooner. So in actual fact the entire news commentary is founded on a contradiction since the leak did cause a problem.
Well reasoned comments and I'm of the exact same mind on this matter. BTW, Team Fortress 2 is going to be out rather quickly after the game hits if you take this quote from the gamefusion article.Originally posted by: Genx87
Did the voucher come with the 9600XT or not?
Came with the 9600 Pro AIW. I know because I have it sitting in my desk awaiting to be used
But I knew from the start there was little to no way I was getting HL2 when I got it for Christmas. But I think many people really believed their 9800XTs would be playing HL2 soon and that is the sad thing.
You can almost liken it to a scam given the recent interview. When Gabe tried to sell people on the R3.xx he knew full well that game was nowhere near shipping. I think for me the clue that gave it away was that nobody was allowed to do anything at shadey days except ask for a predesigned script to be run and note the results. That is not objective in the least and chances are it would have cracked if you actually played it.
So initially the leak was the problem but things changed, mainly as a result of the leak. So what? Release dates change all the time. The voucher thing probably was a little over the top but fundamentally this isn't all that strange.
Come on now are you telling me if the leak didnt happen that Valve could have released the game on the 28th of Sept like they were saying at Shadey days? Even you cant possibly come to the conclusion they simply made the mistake of not knowing they needed a year to get the thing ready with only about 20 days till release at shadey days.
In any case I love it how nVidia fanboys are now using this to discredit Gabe and call him a liar about his anti-nVidia comments. Make no mistake, nVidia was cheating at the time (and are possible doing so today as well) and ATi's SM 2.0 performance was superior across the board. The fact that the game slipped makes no difference to the fact that Gabe knows what he's talking about when it comes to 3D coding.
Was superior at what? Shadermark? Since then the whole slew(lol) of DX9 games(Tomb Raider, Halo, and Far Cry) have hit the market and neither card runs them terribly well. And for the most part the games tend to be a hell of a lot closer than the 70% Gabe was trying to show us. So I guess we really should question whether Gabe "does" know how to program. Becuase looking at his game it isnt anything spectacular compared to the things coming out and the things coming have the 5900 series and 9800 series pretty close. Certainly a lot closer than old Gabe could get them.
And finally, this topic should be in software since it has absolutely nothing to do with video. Yet again VIAN is using the forum as his personal dumping ground.
Come on now we all know you ATI fanbois want this to be buried but this is a video card issue because many video cards were sold because of Gabes comments.
So if there was no leak the team wouldn't have been demoralised and the game would have been finished sooner. So in actual fact the entire news commentary is founded on a contradiction since the leak did cause a problem.
Sept 28th release date. Shadey days was on what, the 10th of Sept? That gives them ~18 days till release and now we are going to be looking at a Sept 2004 release date? You have to be kidding if you think the "demoralization" of the employees(lol) was the reason for a 1 year delay. I see it like ATIs marketing dollars came a calling with the 9800 XT and it was time to cash in the chips.
This is why I have lost total respect for Valve. They knew full well the game was not going to ship anytime soon yet they still went out and made this huge to do about it and tried selling ATI video cards. If they would have just come out and said we have issue with Nvidia cards at the moment I would not have had a problem. But coming out like a child and throwing a temper tantrum then making up graphs with which cards provide the best bang for the buck. That is not being informative, that is being a paid lackey.
The most ironic thing about it is he blasted Nvidia for driver optimization\cheats while lieing through his teeth about the release dates. I mean talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
I will probably get HL2 but not for the game but for the mods I am sure will come out eventually. And the fact I got it for free with my 9800 Pro AIW card. But in future Gabe would be wise to act like John Carmack and dont make an ass of yourself in a public forum.
I won't be a bit surprised if the moment HL2 sales start to slip TF2 hits the shelvesValve is working furiously to meet its deadlines, but Gabe is already planning ahead. ?We?re still working on Team Fortress2,? he reveals, talking about the sequel to the much-loved class-based online shooter. ?When we first showed it, it was on the Half-Life tech, and the Half-Life team was already halfway down the road to building the HL2 technology. So when the TF team saw what the new engine was capable of, they decided they wanted to use it too. The problem then was, how do we talk about TF2 without talking about HL2? We kind of screwed ourselves there, so we decided to say nothing more on it till we announced HL2.?
Originally posted by: Dean
The only people who have a right to be p*ssed off are the people with the vouchers. It seems the only ones truly upset are the ones that do not have the vouchers. Why is that?
Originally posted by: Dean
The only people who have a right to be p*ssed off are the people with the vouchers. It seems the only ones truly upset are the ones that do not have the vouchers. Why is that?
Well reasoned response. My only dispute with it is that I will respectfully keep my own council on what to get "my nose out of joint" over, and the infusion of capital the voucher deal resulted in was conducted under false pretense as confirmed by Gabe stating that they already knew it wouldn't be ready by that time. Nothing I've seen or read has thus far successfully refuted that point, quite the opposite in fact, Gabe admitted to it, and since some of us believed just that months ago it appears collusion to drum up some cash was a motivation for the announcements. You are a lawyer, you can argue anything, but it doesn't mean if I am the jury I'd go your way on the verdictOriginally posted by: Don_Vito
Anyone who gets their nose out of joint and develops elaborate conspiracy theories about the release date of a video game needs something more important to focus on IMO.
I did not buy an ATi card because of HL2 (I already had a 9700 Pro, which was my first non-nVidia card in years). That said, I will definitely buy HL2 when it comes out - I could have told you that in December 1998 - and so I would be happy to have a voucher for it, regardless of what video card I was playing it on (and I think I will probably be playing it on the aforementioned 9700p).
If I had received a HL2 voucher when I bought my 9700p (or for that matter, the GF3ti200 I replaced with it), I would consider it effectively a $50 discount, because, again, it would have the effect of saving me $50. I would not feel ripped off in any way.
I guess I can understand people's impatience with Valve, but I think it's important to keep in mind that the time since Sep 03 has been spent perfecting one of the most anticipated games in history. If they had rushed HL to market, it would have been a totally different experience than what we got (which was, IMO, perhaps the best single-player experience ever), because they scrapped a nearly-complete build of the game after feeling it was not up to their standards. I would rather they focus on quality, regardless of how long it takes, to ensure that HL2 can live up to its name.
Originally posted by: superbooga
Originally posted by: Dean
The only people who have a right to be p*ssed off are the people with the vouchers. It seems the only ones truly upset are the ones that do not have the vouchers. Why is that?
Just read the forumplanet post I linked, it explains why ppl are pissed at Valve (and have a right to, I guess). A company should treat it's fanbase with a light a bit of integrity!
I keep getting the impression the nV fanboy label is being directed at me, if so care to find where I bash ATi? I have a 320m IGP notebook and 9800pro, I love it, I do not complain about the drivers. In fact I have stated that I didn't so much as follow the SOP for removal of Det's and install of Cat's and then Omegas yet my system has been flawless. Thogught I had a AA problem, it turned out I was a dumbass, I readily admit that too.Originally posted by: Dean
Originally posted by: superbooga
Originally posted by: Dean
The only people who have a right to be p*ssed off are the people with the vouchers. It seems the only ones truly upset are the ones that do not have the vouchers. Why is that?
Just read the forumplanet post I linked, it explains why ppl are pissed at Valve (and have a right to, I guess). A company should treat it's fanbase with a light a bit of integrity!
OK I can see why some people may be upset regarding Valve not keeping them updated. What i'm questioning is why there seems to be Nvidia fans trying to tie this in with ATI? Grabbing for straws anyone? Valve could have very well had full intentions of releasing the game when they first announced it but ran into road blocks.
There are people out there trying to turn this into some Valve+ATI conspiracy. Valve stated way back then that the NV30 class hardware ran Halflife 2 badly. That was the issue everyone seems to have a problem with but it was the truth. For all we know Valve could have used ATI for the extra developement money, who knows.
No, customers bought cards including a voucher for the game providing capital which reimbursed ATi for their outlay to Valve, so the customers in essence wrote that check, or most of it anyways. The customers help fund this. Does Valve own me anything? No. Should they have used underhanded tactics to acquire the money they so badly needed for continued development costs? No. I believe if they went public and stated they were strapped for cash, the game was taking too long, the code theft exacerbated the situation, and they were hoping the gaming community would be willing to engage in a lengthy preorder to help fund completion of the project that they would have gotten all the help they could handle and then some. I for one, would have preordered.Originally posted by: Killrose
The extended delays of HL2 will no doubt make it a better game, with enhancements to code allowing it to run better on hardware (both nVidia and Ati). I can't beleive some of the comments here and elsewhere on this issue. Some of you act like Valve owes you something, just because you bought the origional HL and got your free CS expansion.
The delay of HL2 is costing Valve huge amounts of $'s. The only people I see who are getting the short end of the stick are the people who bought Ati hardware with the FREE (did it not say free on the box?) HL2 voucher and, hold on to your hats boyz n Gilrz, Ati themselves. After all, at this point, is'nt Ati the only people who have actually written a check to Valve? Hmmmm?
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
i find it funny how large this thread has been grown.. this had been aruged in particular weeks ago (there was a pub in a german mag), and in general for months, heh..
Originally posted by: tazdevl
nemesismk2
"I just sent an email to ATI PR department asking a few questions about their Half Life 2 marketing. I doubt I will get a reply because I used words like dubious, marketing and scam in one sentence. I also asked them why their new video cards are technologically retarded compared to the advanced geforce 6800 range."
Don't be an a$$hat. ATI had the wool pulled over their eyes by Valve like the rest of us and are trying to make the best of a crappy situation. Their announcements and the HL2 voucher program were based on information they received from Valve.
As to the whole "technologically retarded" statement, that alone tells me how clueless you are.
Excellent post... Couldn't have said it better myself.Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Lying about a game being released and including a voucher to sell people ATi cards and generate revenue to keep Valve's ship afloat, while slandering the competition in the same breath is worse than cheating on a synthetic bench IMO. I've posted before I believe they scammed people for those very purposes, so I'm not at all surprised they lied and cheated the public and their faithful customers. I hope the wheel of Karma kicks 'em right in the nuts.
Originally posted by: Killrose
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
i find it funny how large this thread has been grown.. this had been aruged in particular weeks ago (there was a pub in a german mag), and in general for months, heh..
Well at least it has degenerated into a thread on how "big" Gabe has gotten
Yet
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
No, customers bought cards including a voucher for the game providing capital which reimbursed ATi for their outlay to Valve, so the customers in essence wrote that check, or most of it anyways. The customers help fund this. Does Valve own me anything? No. Should they have used underhanded tactics to acquire the money they so badly needed for continued development costs? No. I believe if they went public and stated they were strapped for cash, the game was taking too long, the code theft exacerbated the situation, and they were hoping the gaming community would be willing to engage in a lengthy preorder to help fund completion of the project that they would have gotten all the help they could handle and then some. I for one, would have preordered.Originally posted by: Killrose
The extended delays of HL2 will no doubt make it a better game, with enhancements to code allowing it to run better on hardware (both nVidia and Ati). I can't beleive some of the comments here and elsewhere on this issue. Some of you act like Valve owes you something, just because you bought the origional HL and got your free CS expansion.
The delay of HL2 is costing Valve huge amounts of $'s. The only people I see who are getting the short end of the stick are the people who bought Ati hardware with the FREE (did it not say free on the box?) HL2 voucher and, hold on to your hats boyz n Gilrz, Ati themselves. After all, at this point, is'nt Ati the only people who have actually written a check to Valve? Hmmmm?
When the game hits the shelves I will own it, I don't let foul biz practices keep me away from products or I would own nothing I will continue to voice my displeasure at what I believe transpired, in a reasonable tone of course, until proven otherwise
I don't see how the huge sales they generated from their cards could be considered bad biz. There is foundation for the accussations that ATi colluded with Valve on this. The other explanations I can offer in it's place is ATi was incompetent, because they exchanged a large amount of cash for the rights to bundle the game with their product without demanding to be "taken in" to the project so they could see what they were investing in. Another explanation is that ATi was duped by Valve just as the customers were, in which case I expect them to be up in arms about it if they discover that to be the case. Calling me ignorant because there is a real possibility ATi colluded is just an Ad Hom and doesn't negate that there is enough evidence to draw such a conclusion. Particularly considering the contemproary corporate culture that has resulted in everything from the Enron, Haliburton, and WorldCom situations to nV cheating at benchmarks in an attempt to do damage control on the failings of their hardware. Given those types of corporate scandals I'd suggest it's not an ignorant viewpoint, but a cynical one based on recent precedent :light:Originally posted by: Ackmed
Anyone who thinks ATi knew that HL2 wasnt going to ship last year, is ignorant. Do you really think they would have put vouchers with their cards if they did? That would be bad buis.
People will still get the game for free with them, so it doesnt really matter.
Originally posted by: nemesismk2
I just sent an email to ATI PR department asking a few questions about their Half Life 2 marketing. I doubt I will get a reply because I used words like dubious, marketing and scam in one sentence. I also asked them why their new video cards are technologically retarded compared to the advanced geforce 6800 range.
Given the events on shader day, and Gabe's endorsement of ATi's hardware for their game I think it's safe to say it was prudent gamble on ATi's behalf Btw, Cheers :beer: on retaining your sense of humor and not "going off" on me like I kicked your dogOf course I do realise that customers who bought Ati cards funded the Voucher system. But Ati origionaly put out the cash. Afterall, the HL2 Voucher is not paid for untill someone buys the product. So the origional investment is Ati's. I also doubt that Valve receives any nasty emails from Ati's disgruntled customers waiting to redeem their Vouchers, I bet that takes at least one full-time Ati employee
Question. Were'nt Pre-orders sold by Best Buy and others? and if so, why are we only holding Ati
responsable? We should be trashing them too, hehe.