Primary reason for HL2 delay was not Source leak. Foul play by ATi and Gabe?!

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: jim1976

Originally posted by: Killrose
Sounds like Valve was definately in denial over the readiness of HL2 and I would agree with people that anything Gabe say's about a release date should be taken with a grain of salt, or better yet, ignored completely.

Obviously if it was nearly ready, they could release it less a few troublesome parts of the game, and patch it later on. But evidently it is not even ready for that. That alone leads me to beleive they are really having big problems.

Patch what? Nvidia's performance was way behind my friend. This would not be a patch it would have been half the code rewritten.I'm 100% sure that Nvidia didn't want the game to be released either for obvious reasons

You act like nVidia cards blow up when they run HL2.

Assuming 30FPS is the target, they exclue all Radeon 8500,9000,9100,9200,9600 cards.

Do you honestly think that nVidia performance caused the half-life delays?

Valve went on record promoting ATI performance on a game which won't ship for over a year after the fact. Valve BS'd us about the reasons for the delays. There is rumor/speculaiton that the game was never even close to release condition.

Valve made a cool game from a highly mod-able iD engine. They didn't invent air.

 

[noxipoo]

They always blame the hackers, as if anyone with a brain believed them

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: ShinX
Hey , Gabe Newell is a fat baby. John Carmack is a 2 faced bastard as well , he promoted ATi cards because of thier D00M3 performance , now hes preaching that nvidia has the fastest cards around . what a nerdy queer.

Hope my sarcasm meter is just out of whack. When he said ATI had the fastest card, they did. When he now says nVidia has the fastest card, you call him 2 faced? It couldn't possibly be because they are faster? Heaven forbid someone tell you something you don't want to hear...

Not that it matters though... as there will probably be another set of cards or refreshed cards when Doom3 ships.

Those of us who actually upgrade for games that are in stores will wait until then.

 

[jim1976]

You act like nVidia cards blow up when they run HL2.

Do you honestly consider "adequate" the performance of high end 5900 and 5950 in HL2 benchies? Cmon man who's overeacting here?

Assuming 30FPS is the target, they exclue all Radeon 8500,9000,9100,9200,9600 cards.

Should that make me feel happy? They win the low end and mainstream cards of ATI?

Do you honestly think that nVidia performance caused the half-life delays?

It makes much more sense, than to consider anything else as I stated. Nvidia might have never had the best of relationships with Valve, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't care for their performance in such an anticipated game. It's biz man, it's not like they are enemies.

Valve went on record promoting ATI performance on a game which won't ship for over a year after the fact. Valve BS'd us about the reasons for the delays. There is rumor/speculaiton that the game was never even close to release condition.

Of course their excuses are BS. But I explained why IMO they did it.

 

[Killrose]

Originally posted by: jim1976
Patch what? Nvidia's performance was way behind my friend. This would not be a patch it would have been half the code rewritten.I'm 100% sure that Nvidia didn't want the game to be released either for obvious reasons

Actually refering to the fact that a lot of games are released with various known problems and are patched later on to correct them. My point being if HL2 is not even far enough along to be released and known problems corrected with a patch or two, that the game is far from ready even now (of course no-one should be surprised by this i'm sure), was'nt even commenting on a patch specifically for nVidia hardware, as that can't be fixed on non-DX9 compliant hardware, that much I do understand but it could possibly made to work "better".

 

[SickBeast]

I'd actually like to give props to Valve for calling nVidia's bullshit for what it was. It is well-known fact that NV30 was a complete disaster.

Aside from that, games are delayed all the time. It seems to be common practice for these companies to do these sorts of things for media attention. I'm not condoning it, rather just pointing out the fact that they all do it. I'm guessing you all hate the creators of Duke Nukem Forever even more, huh?

You'll all be in line when HL2 is released, face reality folks.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Dean

PS: To anyone who says only ATI owners with vouchers have a right to complain I say bullspit. Anyone who upgraded their computer (CPU, RAM, Video, HD) in anticipation of HL2 has just as much right to complain.

Anyone who upgrades a computer anticipating a FUTURE game release deserves to be out the cash. 75% of all games released suffered set backs and a game that is as highly anticipated as Halflife2 is going to be highly scrutinized even more so than Farcry. Halflife2 cannot suffer bugs like Farcry does with Nvidia NV30 class DX9 cards. I would rather wait and have a finished and polished product to play instead of one gaping with holes.

Sorry but I I think you're way off base here. If people were purchasing equipment for a game several months away I'd agree with you but that's not the case here. It was Gabe and Valve that stated the game was on schedule for release right up until a week before the delay announcement. Also, it was the same crew pimping those video cards and including vouchers for the "soon to be released" HL2. Both sides made a lot of money in this little scam, I mean business relationship.

 

[BFG10K]

It is obvious what happened.

It is? Then tell us oh wise one, what did happen?

A game was delayed. Big deal. Even with solid release dates software can and often does slip. And again the delay has absolutely no bearing on his technical comments.

Gabe made one game and he knows everything now, right?

No but he knows far more about the technical aspects of SM 2.0 and how the cards at the time were running it, far more than say someone like you. Saying "Gabe is a dick" doesn't change that fact.

You're right, this topic has nothing to do with the video forum because the fact that Gabe increased graphics card sales for ATi

He did? Show me the evidence that shows ATi's sales increased as a result of Gabe's comments.

In any case so what if he increased their sales? It's no different to the likes of Carmack potentially increasing nVidia's sales. It's called partnerships and advertising.

and trashed Nvidia's camp doesn't have anything to do with video.

Your initial post has absolutely nothing to do with this thought pattern. Basically it was nothing more than a troll with absolutely zero intelligence content (very similar to a lot of your posts in fact).

Either the leak was a major part of the delay or it wasn't.

The leak wasn't a major part of the delay but it did play some part. The contradiction came from your initial thread title which claimed the leak had absolutely no effect on the release data. This title was, of course, utter rubbish.

That is not a direct quote, I said "Gabe Newell is a D|ck." and then the phrase after that, "Possibly ATI too." This shows some connection.

Seriously, how old are you? You're talking and reasoning like a child.

BFB10K's Brain cannot connect the post.

:roll:

 

[BFG10K]

Come on now are you telling me if the leak didnt happen that Valve could have released the game on the 28th of Sept like they were saying at Shadey days?

Unlikely. What I am saying is that it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. NV3x drivers were cheating and the core itself had big problems running PS 2.0 code unless it was massaged to the point of being a major burden on the developer. And even then it still couldn't match ATi's performance in most cases.

Articles on the core's failings are popping up all over the internet like a rash but it doesn't change the fact that certain nVidia fanboys still to this day continue to sweep them under the carpet and instead choose to personally attack Gabe.

Was superior at what?

PS 2.0 code. Please don't tell me you're still trying to deny it even today. I mean if you are you're a textbook example of what I was talking about above.

Since then the whole slew(lol) of DX9 games(Tomb Raider, Halo, and Far Cry) have hit the market and neither card runs them terribly well.

The jump from "neither card running them well" to "there is no difference between the cards" is a logical fallacy on your part. Given standard PS 2.0 code the R3xx core is up to twice as fast at running it than the NV3x. We've seen this in HL2, Far Cry, Tomb Raider and similar.

And for the most part the games tend to be a hell of a lot closer than the 70% Gabe was trying to show us.

Actually it was more like 50% for straight PS 2.0 code and about 20% after Valve spent five times as much time massaging it to use a mixed mode, hand tuned path.

So I guess we really should question whether Gabe "does" know how to program.

Actually no, we shouldn't.

Becuase looking at his game it isnt anything spectacular compared to the things coming out and the things coming have the 5900 series and 9800 series pretty close.

So you've finsihed the entire final version of the game have you? if you haven't you simply have no evidence to make such a call. And even if you have it's still opinion on your part.

Certainly a lot closer than old Gabe could get them.

Why don't you load up a few 6800/R420 reviews and pay attention to the past generation of cards instead of the new ones? Now that nVidia actually doesn't suck reviewers aren't as afraid to show the lackluster performance it produced last generation.

Come on now we all know you ATI fanbois want this to be buried but this is a video card issue because many video cards were sold because of Gabes comments.

Nope. I don't want this to be buried unlike your efforts to attempt to bury the performance rift in PS 2.0 between the two vendors in the past generation.

You have to be kidding if you think the "demoralization" of the employees(lol) was the reason for a 1 year delay.

Where did I say it was? Oh that's right, I didn't.

The most ironic thing about it is he blasted Nvidia for driver optimization\cheats while lieing through his teeth about the release dates. I mean talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Again, the game's release date slipping has absolutely no bearing on the accuracy of his comments. It's a fact that they were cheating at the time and it's been verified by multiple sources. It's also a fact that the NV3x core has problems running PS 2.0 code.

Attacking Gabe and/or the game doesn't change those facts.

 

[VIAN]

You are attributing a level of cloak-and-dagger intrigue to this "scandal" that is just silly IMO. That Planet Half-Life guy is frankly way too close to the issue (and would almost certainly benefit from a break from the PC), and the notion that this was all a deliberate scam, or that ATi is acting out of fear of any nVidia bundle (several of the 6800 vendors have already announced their bundles, and they don't include D3, the only other title that could conceivably create major buzz) seems to me to be mere speculation without any real basis.

That's why I said "I guess."

Again, I can't give great weight to anything that guy says - he sounds like he is one step away from a tinfoil beanie. You will note that he goes on to say that he expects the game to be fantastic, in any case.

How can you believe anything anyone says? Everyone is in question now.

How old are you VIAN? You will see many things in your REAL life that will displease you numerous times. If you act likewise then I can guarantee you that you will never grow up.

I'm just messing. Should have included the . I know that SH|T happens.

Hey , Gabe Newell is a fat baby. John Carmack is a 2 faced bastard as well , he promoted ATi cards because of thier D00M3 performance , now hes preaching that nvidia has the fastest cards around . what a nerdy queer.

The 9700 Pro was released first than the 5800 Ultra.

The HL2 benchmarks were right on. They showed the FX line to have weak shader performance compared to ATI?s R300 line. Exactly what Farcry showed too.

FarCry showed that both cards have terrible Shader Performance.

No but he knows far more about the technical aspects of SM 2.0 and how the cards at the time were running it, far more than say someone like you. Saying "Gabe is a dick" doesn't change that fact.

Hah, like he knows more than me. Wait till I release my new engine called "Gabe Sucks." Everyone will want to use the "Gabe Sucks" engine right next to Carmack's.

The leak wasn't a major part of the delay but it did play some part. The contradiction came from your initial thread title which claimed the leak had absolutely no effect on the release data. This title was, of course, utter rubbish.

The BIG delay is not the cause of the leak. It played a minor part as Gabe said.

Seriously, how old are you? You're talking and reasoning like a child.

This is the level that I have to sink to, to try and get you to understand, but it still doesn't work.


BFG feels like attacking the NV30. How badly does it suck again? That's right. Fanboy.


This has little to do with what you are talking about. We are talking about something else.

It's about how Gabe promised us a game and a WEEK before, 5-7 days, he said no because of a leak. A leak which was not the Primary reason for delay. So, since it was not the primary reason for the delay, then obviously there was something else, which can only mean some people died in Gabes family or the game was far from complete, which someone was able to give obvious hints about. So why would he do that? Why would he trash NV like no tomorrow and then promote heavily ATI and his game that wasn't finished? It could be many reasons. Try and figure something out.


And you assume and attempt to prove me wrong by saying that there is no information to prove my theory when there is no information to prove your theory either. It's a theory, they remain to be proven. I never said anything was a fact.


And thanx for dedicating an entire post to me.




And, I'm 19 if anyone wants to know.

 

[nemesismk2]

Originally posted by: SilverTrine

The 6800 range supports SM3.0 and the X800 range only supports SM2.0 so technologically the 6800 is more advanced. You did know that right and your not clueless are you?

ATi supports 3dc enhanced textures and Nvidia doesnt x800 is more advanced.
3dc comparison

That doesn't even compare to SM3.0 and you know it! :disgust:

 

[Vernor]

A couple of clues:

1.If you can't go into a store and buy it, it doesn't exist.

2.Buy hardware for *existing* software.

3.Stop obsessing about hypothetical crap, and stop reading "sneak previews"/"E3 impressions"/"exclusive tour of company X headquarters" and all other marketing bullshit.

 

[jim1976]

Actually refering to the fact that a lot of games are released with various known problems and are patched later on to correct them. My point being if HL2 is not even far enough along to be released and known problems corrected with a patch or two, that the game is far from ready even now (of course no-one should be surprised by this i'm sure), was'nt even commenting on a patch specifically for nVidia hardware, as that can't be fixed on non-DX9 compliant hardware, that much I do understand but it could possibly made to work "better".

The fact is, as I mentioned before, that Gabe is a smart perfectionist fvcker, who wants his game to be the best and nothing less than that. I can't imagine him to say "The game has some issues and bugs that will eventually be fixed in the near future".
Carmack IMO is no different regarding personality issues.
They both want their products to be the best in the gaming history. And for this reason, they won't hesitate to take as much time as they feel that they will need to achieve this.

But both FVCKERS ARE REALLY GOOD IN THEIR WORK. What can you say and do rather than to wait??

 

[skace]

Gabe is a being a real retard and I'd have a hard time believing that anyone who disagrees with that statement has been following anything that happened in regards to HL2. I don't really understand why ATi backed HL2. I mean, I'm pretty sure they wanted to be behind the biggest sequel ever, but I'm suprised they couldn't realize the game was nothing but a fvcking etcha sketch drawing at the time they started their whole bundle. And now they are making a second bundle for CS2? WTF? How stupid can you be.

What I REALLY don't understand is people who compare Carmack to Gabe. Carmack has made a significant number of games now, all of which have pushed the hardware industry as well as innovating the entire gaming industry. He has promoted all kinds of hardware in his plan files from the original Voodoo (which he wrote gl quake for) to the Macintosh (during Quake3 developement) to ATi AND nVidia. Why does he promote these products? Because he liked them at the time he wrote them and they were most likely the best. He never overhyped a product, he usually just stated what he was using currently and why.

The difference between Gabe and Carmack is that Gabe wants you to believe that you need to get an ATi card to run his game. Carmack will try and (most likely) succeed at getting as much hardware as possible to run his game. Infact, I don't even know where people get off comparing Gabe to Carmack. Gabe has yet to even prove himself, HL was a heavily modified quake1/quake2 engine.

Guess I am just tired of seeing people pasting release dates of Doom3 that they found on EBgames or something in response to Gabe trashing Nvidia, overhyping ATi, not releasing his game, blaming it 100% on hackers, hackers finding out that most of the HL2 demo was scripted events, Gabe taking forever to finally complete the game, and then coming out and overhyping the next generation of ATi cards when he hasn't even backed his first overhyped bunch of BS yet. I should add that somewhere in there they butchered Counter-Strike as well.

 

[Regs]

They quoted him saying that he under estimated the work that had to be done. After that it was just the editors opinion.

Other than that, the article had more spin on it to feed any excuse to hate ATI.

I really don't see any connection. Just an extreme screw up on Valves part.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: jim1976

You act like nVidia cards blow up when they run HL2.

Do you honestly consider "adequate" the performance of high end 5900 and 5950 in HL2 benchies? Cmon man who's overeacting here?

First of all, please point out where I stated "adequate"?

Based on the linkI provided I see 9800 series cards capable of FPS in the mid to high 40's, where 5900 series cards are in the low to mid 30's. That's about 20-30% performance difference.

Neither are "adequate" to most enthusiasts, but IMO they are both well within the scope of acceptable performance from a game developers point of view.

Do you disagree?

Assuming 30FPS is the target, they exclue all Radeon 8500,9000,9100,9200,9600 cards.

Should that make me feel happy? They win the low end and mainstream cards of ATI?

I'm not sure if your happiness factors into Valves decisions, but my point illustrated that the HL2 beta stresses low end cards to a much higher factor that the delta between ATI high end and nVidia high end.

Who cares if they have low performance on the 15 people who had 5800's at the time of shader days, when all of nVidia and ATI mainstream cards will be close to 20fps or lower?

Do you honestly think that nVidia performance caused the half-life delays?

It makes much more sense, than to consider anything else as I stated. Nvidia might have never had the best of relationships with Valve, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't care for their performance in such an anticipated game. It's biz man, it's not like they are enemies.

Valve went on record promoting ATI performance on a game which won't ship for over a year after the fact. Valve BS'd us about the reasons for the delays. There is rumor/speculaiton that the game was never even close to release condition.

Of course their excuses are BS. But I explained why IMO they did it.

You mean that bit about nVidia performance being the primary cause of the delay?
<start X-files theme>

 

[jim1976]

Gabe is a being a real retard and I'd have a hard time believing that anyone who disagrees with that statement has been following anything that happened in regards to HL2. I don't really understand why ATi backed HL2. I mean, I'm pretty sure they wanted to be behind the biggest sequel ever, but I'm suprised they couldn't realize the game was nothing but a fvcking etcha sketch drawing at the time they started their whole bundle. And now they are making a second bundle for CS2? WTF? How stupid can you be.

It's called biz. If ATI leave this partnership, BE 100% sure Nvidia will take advantage of it. It happens in everyday biz life. They know they are screwed but they can't leavy the "enemy" take advantage of it.

What I REALLY don't understand is people who compare Carmack to Gabe. Carmack has made a significant number of games now, all of which have pushed the hardware industry as well as innovating the entire gaming industry. He has promoted all kinds of hardware in his plan files from the original Voodoo (which he wrote gl quake for) to the Macintosh (during Quake3 developement) to ATi AND nVidia. Why does he promote these products? Because he liked them at the time he wrote them and they were most likely the best. He never overhyped a product, he usually just stated what he was using currently and why.

John is a genious and IMO one of the top leading programmers (if not the best) around the world. This doesn't mean that he's a "saint". Leaving the rumours spreading all around and saying " It will be released when it's done" isn't right if you ask me. He's taking no position and time frame which is equally frustrating if you think it better. But of course he has much more experience than Gabe and if you want he's a smarter bizman too,for not stating the reasons of DOOM III delay.

The difference between Gabe and Carmack is that Gabe wants you to believe that you need to get an ATi card to run his game.

Well that's part of the marketing BS he has to say. Do you believe all the marketing BS that bombard you every day?

Carmack will try and (most likely) succeed at getting as much hardware as possible to run his game. Infact, I don't even know where people get off comparing Gabe to Carmack. Gabe has yet to even prove himself, HL was a heavily modified quake1/quake2 engine.

You're right about John, but you could be wrong about Gabe. As I stated in previous posts, I think Gabe wanted to delay the game because of performance lack in NV3x series in DX9. NOONE WANTS HIS PRODUCT TO BE GOOD IN JUST A PERCENTAGE OF MARKET. Do you realize how bad biz is to throw a game in the market knowing that (50% +) of pc gaming community won't be able to run it well? On the other hand he has to say some exaggerating BS about ATI superiority on the game so that he can earn some money and honor his partnership too. That's biz man, and wait and see now that Nvidia has a new nice DX9 series of cards in the market the game will be released ASAP. Is that a coincidence? NO IMO.

 

[jim1976]

First of all, please point out where I stated "adequate"?

Based on the linkI provided I see 9800 series cards capable of FPS in the mid to high 40's, where 5900 series cards are in the low to mid 30's. That's about 20-30% performance difference.

Neither are "adequate" to most enthusiasts, but IMO they are both well within the scope of acceptable performance from a game developers point of view.

Do you disagree?

No I said adequate to show you that Nvidia's performance is not sufficient. Well even at these benches,(which I find a bit strange, since I haven't seen nowhere else Nvidia taking the lead and 9800 perform below 50-70),you can agree that this difference is really important. I mean 30-35 are hardly acceptable for me, but with 50+ you can have adequate (playable) preformance.
Of course if you look at these benches neither card has great performance, but don't you want the best one out there? I mean what are you trying to prove here? That NV3x series were good enough as R3xx in DX9 and the difference is not worthmentioning? Someone is biased here. :roll:
If you're looking for super performance for DX9 then this is the time. Choose your flavor, because both NV4x and R42x are great. But don't try to show me that NV3x is almost the same with R3xx.
As for game developers I can't answer what's on their mind... But I assume they want the mainstream cards to have 30-35+ average for such a hevily shadered dx9 game.

not sure if your happiness factors into Valves decisions, but my point illustrated that the HL2 beta stresses low end cards to a much higher factor that the delta between ATI high end and nVidia high end.

Who cares if they have low performance on the 15 people who had 5800's at the time of shader days, when all of nVidia and ATI mainstream cards will be close to 20fps or lower?

ATI mainstream cards were never close to 20fps in HL2 or any dx9 game. But developers care for Nvidia's problematic NV3xx performance. Are you still arguing the FACTS? Cmon what have you been reading the last dayz? (not to say months)

You mean that bit about nVidia performance being the primary cause of the delay?
<start X-files theme>

So you find science fiction the fact that a company cares for the 50% + of gaming community and delay the game due to her and Nvidia interests,and reasonable the fact that source code has been stolen and they just haven't understood that this project will be way off timeframe? Just to win some money from sales with ATI, displease ATI later and diplease NVIDIA too for bringing a game to the surface that will make their cards look like $hit?

 

[SilverTrine]

Originally posted by: nemesismk2

Originally posted by: SilverTrine

The 6800 range supports SM3.0 and the X800 range only supports SM2.0 so technologically the 6800 is more advanced. You did know that right and your not clueless are you?

ATi supports 3dc enhanced textures and Nvidia doesnt x800 is more advanced.
3dc comparison

That doesn't even compare to SM3.0 and you know it! :disgust:

Yeah you're right Cryotek, Valve among others will be using 3dc in the next several months. Sm3.0 wont be used for a year+.

You can dress up a card thats poor at shaders with Sm3.0 but its still poor at shaders. x800 line is the best product line out there for games that use pixel shaders, Sm3.0 is just dressing up a pig.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: jim1976

No I said adequate to show you that Nvidia's performance is not sufficient. Well even at these benches,(which I find a bit strange, since I haven't seen nowhere else Nvidia taking the lead and 9800 perform below 50-70),you can agree that this difference is really important. I mean 30-35 are hardly acceptable for me, but with 50+ you can have adequate (playable) preformance.
Of course if you look at these benches neither card has great performance, but don't you want the best one out there? I mean what are you trying to prove here? That NV3x series were good enough as R3xx in DX9 and the difference is not worthmentioning? Someone is biased here. :roll:
If you're looking for super performance for DX9 then this is the time. Choose your flavor, because both NV4x and R42x are great. But don't try to show me that NV3x is almost the same with R3xx.
As for game developers I can't answer what's on their mind... But I assume they want the mainstream cards to have 30-35+ average for such a hevily shadered dx9 game.

Just to be clear, I understand the point you are trying to make. I agree that Valve would be justified in delaying the game due to nVidia performance IF the BETA performance on nV3X was the ONLY thing stoping them from releasing the game.

However, I don't believe that to be the case, and I think Gabe's comments reflect my opinion. The game content isn't done today, and sure as heck wasn't even close to being done during Shader Days.

ATI mainstream cards were never close to 20fps in HL2 or any dx9 game. But developers care for Nvidia's problematic NV3xx performance. Are you still arguing the FACTS? Cmon what have you been reading the last dayz? (not to say months)

If you bold FACTS, you'd better link to some. I provided the most up to date results on the Beta HL2 engine which shows that anything short of a 9600 Pro, including 8500,9000,9100,9200,9600,9800SE, all are in the 20fps range with HL2 beta. These are ATI's mainstream cards. nVidia mainstream is even worse, with everything short of a 5900 in the sub-30FPS range.

So you find science fiction the fact that a company cares for the 50% + of gaming community and delay the game due to her and Nvidia interests,and reasonable the fact that source code has been stolen and they just haven't understood that this project will be way off timeframe? Just to win some money from sales with ATI, displease ATI later and diplease NVIDIA too for bringing a game to the surface that will make their cards look like $hit?

I find it science fiction that there are people who believe the delays have anything to do with the performance of the engine on current games, as I beleive the current performance threshold of mid-tier cards and above is acceptable from a business standpoint. I find it science fiction that Valve really thought they were close to a shipping product.

I think Valve knew they were way off, and the Shader Day was a Lame attempt at appeasing ATI prior to having to tell them that the game was no where near done. I think that Valve used the leak as an excuse to buy some additional time. I think they finally ran out of excuses and Gabe was forced to come clean. Rather than taking it on the chin, and telling everyone to "screw-off, it will be done when it's done", he babbled on about how they underestimated the development effort.

 

[skace]

You have to realize that shader day was a scripted sequence of events on a proven unfinished product. So no, it would be silly to assume that they delayed it because an unfinished game that only had a decent ammount of viewable content didn't work on current hardware. Because developers must design games are pre-existing hardware but also have to work towards hardware that hasn't even been released yet. They do this by predicting, and until their game is complete they shouldn't care whether 1 card runs it faster. In other words, Jim, you are trying hard to defend Valve / Gabe but you are way off.

Also, it may be annoying that Carmack never states a release date unless he is damn close and if he needs to delay he states why. But at least you can never blame him for lying to your face. That does not put him anywhere NEAR Gabe's antics as far as 'the biz' goes. I think you need to think about what both of them have done a little more.

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: skace
Also, it may be annoying that Carmack never states a release date unless he is damn close and if he needs to delay he states why. But at least you can never blame him for lying to your face. That does not put him anywhere NEAR Gabe's antics as far as 'the biz' goes. I think you need to think about what both of them have done a little more.

well according to yahoo ID and Avtivision have stated itll be out this summer
if thats a closer release date for ya LOL

 

[jim1976]

Just to be clear, I understand the point you are trying to make. I agree that Valve would be justified in delaying the game due to nVidia performance IF the BETA performance on nV3X was the ONLY thing stoping them from releasing the game.
However, I don't believe that to be the case, and I think Gabe's comments reflect my opinion. The game content isn't done today, and sure as heck wasn't even close to being done during Shader Days.

And I found hard to believe that a company doesn't have a DECENT timeplan for a game. I mean if it was 2-3 months out of program I would have understood it, but a whole year? Gabe don't convince me that they were so wrong in their timeplans. Something's fishy here.... And now wait and see that the game will be ready ASAP the new cards will be out for a while. But that's just me.

If you bold FACTS, you'd better link to some. I provided the most up to date results on the Beta HL2 engine which shows that anything short of a 9600 Pro, including 8500,9000,9100,9200,9600,9800SE, all are in the 20fps range with HL2 beta. These are ATI's mainstream cards. nVidia mainstream is even worse, with everything short of a 5900 in the sub-30FPS range.

Excuse me for not getting excited about "beta" benchmarks. I think you're smart enough and have watched many benchies stating my point of view. This was beaten to death. They don't have the super performance, but it's an achievement that mainstream R3xx cards are compared to high end NV3xx and sometimes surpass them in performance in DX9 games.

I find it science fiction that there are people who believe the delays have anything to do with the performance of the engine on current games, as I beleive the current performance threshold of mid-tier cards and above is acceptable from a business standpoint. I find it science fiction that Valve really thought they were close to a shipping product.

See my previous comments.

I think Valve knew they were way off, and the Shader Day was a Lame attempt at appeasing ATI prior to having to tell them that the game was no where near done. I think that Valve used the leak as an excuse to buy some additional time. I think they finally ran out of excuses and Gabe was forced to come clean. Rather than taking it on the chin, and telling everyone to "screw-off, it will be done when it's done", he babbled on about how they underestimated the development effort.

Again I don't find honest either the "it will be done when it's done." What does that mean?
But as I said tht's my point of view. Who really knows what happened?

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: skace
You have to realize that shader day was a scripted sequence of events on a proven unfinished product. So no, it would be silly to assume that they delayed it because an unfinished game that only had a decent ammount of viewable content didn't work on current hardware.

Your point of view. I don't find silly to ignore NVIDIA'S preformance. Do you realize how much $$$ are we talkin about?

Because developers must design games are pre-existing hardware but also have to work towards hardware that hasn't even been released yet. They do this by predicting, and until their game is complete they shouldn't care whether 1 card runs it faster. In other words, Jim, you are trying hard to defend Valve / Gabe but you are way off.

It didn't just ran it faster. It was showing high end Nvidia cards having less or similar performance than the mainstream ATI cards. Shouldn't a logic preson or company care or not? Consequently I find it unproffesional and unprofitable to release the game in such a case. It's one thing to bubble about marketing BS at shader days and another to release the actual product without caring about the actual costs. So what to predict? I think you have to take into consideration the fact that you simply cannot IGNORE NVIDIA, whoever you are. It's simply BAD BIZ.

Also, it may be annoying that Carmack never states a release date unless he is damn close and if he needs to delay he states why. But at least you can never blame him for lying to your face. That does not put him anywhere NEAR Gabe's antics as far as 'the biz' goes. I think you need to think about what both of them have done a little more.

I said that Gabe didn't play the publicity game so smart as John did. Dumper? Less exprerienced? Call it as you like but that's not what bothers me. Neither product is out yet so why should I give the credits to John? Because he can handle the publicity game better? Not me.
But I don't give a FVCK about Gabe or John. It's their games I'm anticipating.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: jim1976

Because developers must design games are pre-existing hardware but also have to work towards hardware that hasn't even been released yet. They do this by predicting, and until their game is complete they shouldn't care whether 1 card runs it faster. In other words, Jim, you are trying hard to defend Valve / Gabe but you are way off.

It didn't just ran it faster. It was showing high end Nvidia cards having less or similar performance than the mainstream ATI cards. Shouldn't a logic preson or company care or not? Consequently I find it unproffesional and unprofitable to release the game in such a case. It's one thing to bubble about marketing BS at shader days and another to release the actual product without caring about the actual costs. So what to predict? I think you have to take into consideration the fact that you simply cannot IGNORE NVIDIA, whoever you are. It's simply BAD BIZ.

Okay. So maybe releasing a product that ran significantly better on ATI's hardware than NVIDIA's would have hurt their sales somewhat. But not releasing an almost-finished game for a year because of performance issues on one company's hardware is FAR more unprofitable than releasing the game and having fewer sales to NVIDIA owners. Not to mention that they would have beaten Doom3 to market (of course, they still might at this rate). If anything, wouldn't ATI have been twisting their arm to *release* the game, since they had such a huge performance edge over the NV30? It doesn't make any sense for them to delay it for a year to appease NVIDIA.

I think it's much more likely that Gabe is basically telling the truth -- they underestimated the amount of work left to do and how long it would take, and the source code theft exacerbated the problems (although if there was so much left to do then that it's STILL not done, there's no way they could have hit their target date in September). I just wish they'd come out and said that six or nine months ago, rather than pushing the release date further and further back and not telling anybody anything.