Primary reason for HL2 delay was not Source leak. Foul play by ATi and Gabe?!

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: jim1976
Excuse me for not getting excited about "beta" benchmarks.

Isn't your whole argument is based on "beta" benchmark performance?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Okay. So maybe releasing a product that ran significantly better on ATI's hardware than NVIDIA's would have hurt their sales somewhat. But not releasing an almost-finished game for a year because of performance issues on one company's hardware is FAR more unprofitable than releasing the game and having fewer sales to NVIDIA owners. Not to mention that they would have beaten Doom3 to market (of course, they still might at this rate). If anything, wouldn't ATI have been twisting their arm to *release* the game, since they had such a huge performance edge over the NV30? It doesn't make any sense for them to delay it for a year to appease NVIDIA.

I think it's much more likely that Gabe is basically telling the truth -- they underestimated the amount of work left to do and how long it would take, and the source code theft exacerbated the problems (although if there was so much left to do then that it's STILL not done, there's no way they could have hit their target date in September). I just wish they'd come out and said that six or nine months ago, rather than pushing the release date further and further back and not telling anybody anything.

I agree but if there really was so much work to be done and only a week to do it why wasn't it announced *a lot* earlier? For instance, if I'm building a highway and doing approximately 1 mile per day with 200 miles to go and only a few months 'till the deadline I know damned well I'm not going to finish anywhere near on time. More importantly, why did they continue to pimp ATI's cards and dangle the HL2 vouchers as a carrot when they knew it was no where near complete. That's what disgusts me about this while thing. We've got next gen cards on the doorstep and HL2 is still several months away.

Valve's actions make me want to run a warez version of HL2 on an Nvidia card just out of spite. :disgust:

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: jim1976

Because developers must design games are pre-existing hardware but also have to work towards hardware that hasn't even been released yet. They do this by predicting, and until their game is complete they shouldn't care whether 1 card runs it faster. In other words, Jim, you are trying hard to defend Valve / Gabe but you are way off.

It didn't just ran it faster. It was showing high end Nvidia cards having less or similar performance than the mainstream ATI cards. Shouldn't a logic preson or company care or not? Consequently I find it unproffesional and unprofitable to release the game in such a case. It's one thing to bubble about marketing BS at shader days and another to release the actual product without caring about the actual costs. So what to predict? I think you have to take into consideration the fact that you simply cannot IGNORE NVIDIA, whoever you are. It's simply BAD BIZ.

Okay. So maybe releasing a product that ran significantly better on ATI's hardware than NVIDIA's would have hurt their sales somewhat. But not releasing an almost-finished game for a year because of performance issues on one company's hardware is FAR more unprofitable than releasing the game and having fewer sales to NVIDIA owners. Not to mention that they would have beaten Doom3 to market (of course, they still might at this rate). If anything, wouldn't ATI have been twisting their arm to *release* the game, since they had such a huge performance edge over the NV30? It doesn't make any sense for them to delay it for a year to appease NVIDIA.

I think it's much more likely that Gabe is basically telling the truth -- they underestimated the amount of work left to do and how long it would take, and the source code theft exacerbated the problems (although if there was so much left to do then that it's STILL not done, there's no way they could have hit their target date in September). I just wish they'd come out and said that six or nine months ago, rather than pushing the release date further and further back and not telling anybody anything.

Mathias all I'm trying to say here is that maybe Nvidia played her role to this.
1. Valve will eventually take the profit from the coupons(unless there's a term in the contract that cancel them after a time limit)
2. ATI is the only loser regarding reputation here since there are many displeased customers out there
3. Valve will eventually sell like crazy not matter of what happened (It will sell even more after this delay- it's a great marketing trick)
4. Nvidia might have paid a "generous" delay bonus to Valve for obvious reasons
5. Don't you find weird the fact that they were so much out of timeframe? Even if my theory is invalid, there are always "hidden dark" reasons behind such a huge delay. I'm just stating some. They are professionals you know not stupid.

So while all these are pure speculations, they might be the truth. It's simply biz.

 

[jim1976]

Isn't your whole argument is based on "beta" benchmark performance?

Official techdemos and the alpha leaked ones. But this was not my point of debate. I'm not saying beta nchmarks are invalid I just don't trust them so much and aspecially at such a cpu limited resolution.

 

[merlocka]

4. Nvidia might have paid a "generous" delay bonus to Valve for obvious reasons

Thread is done.

Your delusional.

*confirmed*

 

[413xram]

HL2 I'm sure will be a great game. But to tell you the truth I'm looking forward to STALKER over both HL@ and DOOM3. I always like the low keyed killers. Not so much warn out hype.

 

[413xram]

spell fix "HL2" and "worn".....oops

 

[fwtong]

I'm still waiting for Team Fortress 2

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: fwtong
I'm still waiting for Team Fortress 2

Stalker baby Stalker !

 

[jim1976]

who

Originally posted by: merlocka

4. Nvidia might have paid a "generous" delay bonus to Valve for obvious reasons

Thread is done.

Your delusional.

*confirmed*

Maybe , maybe not. I just stated my opinion. Anyway I feel like a Gabe supporter here who blames Nvidia for the delay. WHICH IS DEFINATELY NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

 

[BFG10K]

FarCry showed that both cards have terrible Shader Performance.

Terrible is both a relative term and also irrelevant in this context. Under the PS 2.0 path the R3xx is around twice as fast as the NV3x (are you starting to see the pattern here)? Under PS 1.x the NV3x is around equal so it's no surprise the game automatically uses that path when it detects that card.

Now we only have to wait for the inept comments about shiny pipes and the nv-fanboy arguments will have formed a complete circle.

Hah, like he knows more than me.

That wouldn't be especially difficult.

The BIG delay is not the cause of the leak. It played a minor part as Gabe said.

That isn't what you initially said but it is most certainly is what I said.

This is the level that I have to sink to, to try and get you to understand, but it still doesn't work.

Sink? Sinking implies you were at a higher position to begin with, which you weren't. You can't sink if you're already at the bottom of the ocean.

BFG feels like attacking the NV30. How badly does it suck again? That's right. Fanboy.

Do you have difficulty following arguments?

This has little to do with what you are talking about. We are talking about something else.

Actually yes, it has everything to do with it. You've forgotten the very points you're trying to argue against and in fact it appears right below.

Why would he trash NV like no tomorrow and then promote heavily ATI and his game that wasn't finished?

The game not being finished has zero bearing on his comments. This is at least the fourth time I've repeated myself.

The only thing amusing about this is that in your above two quotes you appear to have forgotten why it is we're even talking about nVidia.

And, I'm 19 if anyone wants to know.

Physical age and mental age are two different things. The former is determined by your birth date while the latter is determined by how you think and act.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Why would he trash NV like no tomorrow and then promote heavily ATI and his game that wasn't finished?

The game not being finished has zero bearing on his comments. This is at least the fourth time I've repeated myself.

Saying something multiple times does not make it true.

It may not have bearing in a vacuum, but in the context of this post it does. Promoting one architecture over another for a supposedly soon to be released tite will have the effect of boosting the promoted achitecture's sales. Thus, in doing so knowing that the game was not anywhere near completion is misleading for 2 reasons:

1) The code was not nearly complete, any assertions made on the performance of the code are made off of beta (or alpha) code. Making statements about performance on beta code is fine as long as this is made at face value and the level of completion is made known along with the performance statement. However, if the supposed release date is a week away, it would be a reasonable for someone not privvy to the progress to make the assumption that the code was complete and that ATi's hardware was required for playing the completed game at it's fullest. Not making the state of the code public knowledge while trashing nVidia and promoting ATi is deceptive, since it only presents 1/2 of the facts.

2) By making these statements at the time they were made and offering a voucher for the game along with ATi's XT cards, it implies that the game would be ready while the 9x00 XT series was still current. Knowing that this is not the case and continuing to promote ATi's 9x00 XT series as the choice achitecture over nVidia's is misleading. The game will be released well after the introduction of both ATi and nVidia's next-gen chips. Valve would have no way of knowing what the best chip to run HL2 on will be when the game is finally released back as early as Sept of 2003. At best, Valve could speculate whose next-gen hardware would run the game the best. In most circles, presenting speculation as fact is considered misleading.

 

[BFG10K]

Saying something multiple times does not make it true.

And likewise ignoring it multiple times doesn't make it false.

Not making the state of the code public knowledge while trashing nVidia and promoting ATi is deceptive, since it only presents 1/2 of the facts.

The release date makes no difference because:

(1) We already know that significant optimizations had taken place on nVidia hardware.
(2) His findings have since been verified by multiple sources.
(3) The unfinished portion of the code was far more likely to be non-rendering related since Gabe decided the game in its current state was fit enough have benchmarks of it released to the public. And again, using point (2) we've seen evidence in other games showing the exact same performance rift described by him.

Valve would have no way of knowing what the best chip to run HL2 on will be when the game is finally released back as early as Sept of 2003.

That's fine but Valve never made any claims about next generation hardware. Is Carmack evil because he was talking about the NV3x being better in Doom3 despite the game being hinted for a 2003 release (ten year anniversary of Doom)? Hell in the early days he was talking about Voodoo3 being able to play the game for heaven's sake. Does that make him a liar?

Technology changes as do games as do release dates. Also when the game is released your ATi HL2 voucher is still usable.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

Originally posted by: jim1976
[And now wait and see that the game will be ready ASAP the new cards will be out for a while. But that's just me.

So you honestly believe that Valve would hold up a shipment of a completed game because the people on NVIDIA cards could not play it as fast as those on ATI cards?

You realize that most people on ATI cards can't play the game very fast either, correct? So, Valve, this company of super smart buisinessmen and programmers, has gone and made a game that not only pushes the most advanced cards to their limits, but so far beyond them that only a very small percentage of users can actually run the game (those with ATI 9600XT or better cards)?

Now, that, to me, is what sounds like a bad decision.

Furthermore, you argue that they are trying not to upset NIVIDIA, yet they've already said that you really can't play the game on NVIDIA hardware. Once that statement is made, releasing this supposedly completed game doesn't change things. In fact, the lack of a release only makes their statements that much more difficult to proove or disprove. Certainly the lack of the game isn't helping NVIDIA at all.

However, seeing as I am currently running a 9700pro, I certainly hope your hypothesis is correct and that we'll see the game before the end of the month (I'm assuming this is an acceptable time frame since the 6800 series of Nvidia cards will be available shortly after?).

Somehow, though, I doubt it will turn out that way.

-D'oh!

 

[jim1976]

So you honestly believe that Valve would hold up a shipment of a completed game because the people on NVIDIA cards could not play it as fast as those on ATI cards?

Under certain circumstances yes they could have delayed it. Nvidia as I said is 50% + generated income. Wouldn't you care?

You realize that most people on ATI cards can't play the game very fast either, correct? So, Valve, this company of super smart buisinessmen and programmers, has gone and made a game that not only pushes the most advanced cards to their limits, but so far beyond them that only a very small percentage of users can actually run the game (those with ATI 9600XT or better cards)?

A heavily shadered game like HL2, is supposed to be that way. It would run sufficient only at high end present hardware, and run flawlessly at next gen cards. You can't expect a title like this to satisfy previous gen cards. It's a game that makes ppl upgrade their systems. Isn't that what is happening with many of the great games? Nvidia was having severe problems though, and that was a serious problem for them.

Now, that, to me, is what sounds like a bad decision.

I can't argue that, it's your opinion.

Furthermore, you argue that they are trying not to upset NIVIDIA, yet they've already said that you really can't play the game on NVIDIA hardware. Once that statement is made, releasing this supposedly completed game doesn't change things. In fact, the lack of a release only makes their statements that much more difficult to proove or disprove. Certainly the lack of the game isn't helping NVIDIA at all.

I agree with you partially, but you have to understand that from theory to practice there's a very long distance. How many ppl are informed the way you and I and some others do about hardware? All they know is "Ahh HL2 let's take xxx company cauz it says it in the sticker". It's one thing for Valve to share it publicly and another for the users(and especially the uninformed ones) to experience it. I might understand the reasons Nvidia failed to bring a good product for DX9 with the NV3x series, but the vast majority would just say "Nvidia sucks I won't buy anything from that company again". Ignorance is bliss, and you will be surpised to look at the percentage of pc users that don't know a single thing about all these and just pick up a video card. If this card fails they won't look for the reasons. They'll just ignore the company.

However, seeing as I am currently running a 9700pro, I certainly hope your hypothesis is correct and that we'll see the game before the end of the month (I'm assuming this is an acceptable time frame since the 6800 series of Nvidia cards will be available shortly after?).

Somehow, though, I doubt it will turn out that way.

I have a feeling it will be ready ASAP. Let's wait and see.

 

[nitromullet]

That's fine but Valve never made any claims about next generation hardware. Is Carmack evil because he was talking about the NV3x being better in Doom3 despite the game being hinted for a 2003 release (ten year anniversary of Doom)? Hell in the early days he was talking about Voodoo3 being able to play the game for heaven's sake. Does that make him a liar?

Technology changes as do games as do release dates. Also when the game is released your ATi HL2 voucher is still usable.

That is exactly the point of this whole thread. R3xx and NV3x will probably be considered old hardware by the time the game is released. Valve knew this, but didn't let on to the public that the code was unfinished when they had a release date in a week. I never said that Gabe lied about the performance, simply that by not disclosing the progress of the game, he was misleading the piblic and encouraging them to buy hardware that would be irrelevant (or less relevant) by the time the game was actually released. The big difference here between Valve and id is the voucher and I think that is what has people feeling cheated. Sure the voucher will work in the fufure, but what if Valve never finishes the game and/or they go under? All those customers will have fronted Valve money for nothing because of statements made based on beta code while hiding the fact hat the code was incomplete.

His findings have since been verified by multiple sources.

These sources are using the same incomplete code, of course their findings would be the same. The point I am making, which you appear to be missing, is that a progress report of how an unfinished game works on current hardware is fine (a good thing actually), but not disclosing the fact that the code is nowhere near completion when the release date is in a week and trashing nVidia's hardware simply serves to create FUD.

 

[BFG10K]

R3xx and NV3x will probably be considered old hardware by the time the game is released. Valve knew this,

How did they know that? You yourself previously commented that Valve couldn't have possibly known how the next generation of cards will perform. I'll also add that they had no idea when those cards where arriving.

simply that by not disclosing the progress of the game, he was misleading the piblic and encouraging them to buy hardware that would be irrelevant (or less relevant) by the time the game was actually released.

And how relevant is a Voodoo3 to Doom III? Is Carmack misleading the public by saying (at the time) it will run the game without him disclosing how far along the game was?

These sources are using the same incomplete code,

The likes of Far Cry, Tomb Raider, 3DMark03 and Nascar Racing are incomplete? That's news to me.

 

[NOX]

How can anyone even suggest ATi was a fault here? The only way I see ATi having any fault was for not having Valve commit to an actual release date before allowing Valve to use their name (which is what Valve did). I think if ATi knew this they would have been more reluctant to promote HL2 so early on.

Gabe Newell made the call and his call was the wrong one. I don't see how he can convince anyone now that the 6800 will not run HL2 at any quality setting. Gabe Newell should stick to making games and leave the marketing/hyping to the PR experts.

 

[Delorian]

Originally posted by: PointlesS
if it doesn't run well on a 9600XT then how will it run on a fx5200 or mx400 which is what the vast majority of people (sadly) have? I doubt you'll be running full details with everything on at a high (1024x768+) resolution...but I would expect the game to run pretty smooth in 1024x768 medium to high details...even the hl2 leak ran relatively decent on a lot of computers...

I was running the doom 3 alpha on my system with a GeForce 2 Ti 64mb and it held up fairly well at 1024x768 w/no details on, ran about 25 fps give or take a few depending on what was being displayed at the time. Thats the Alpha, with no finishing touches and being required to roll back to an older detonator set of drivers. That card is about 3-4 years old.