Pro-choice actually pro-abortion?

[umbrella39]

I am 100% pro-abortion. I have no concern for the unborn especially when they are not my unborn.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm all for choice if the choice is between keeping the child or putting it up for adoption.

I don't consider taking the life of an unborn a legitimate choice.

Well, too bad. I guess it sucks to hold fanatical beilefs and the rest of the civilized world to disagree with you.

Sticking a sharp object into the back of a baby's skull and sucking out its brains is civilized?

so was having sex with young boys at one time. Worry not rip, people receive in themselves justice for there sins.

it's the negative personal consequences that occur from abortions that we should help publicize in order to help reduce abortions. Make sure the selfish-reasons for not killing your unborn are well understood.

So I'm sinning for believing that I don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have an abortion?

So I'm sinning for believing that I don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have an abortion?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have a slave?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can kill a jew?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can download child pornography?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have sex with an animal?

I have no concern for the unborn especially when they are not my unborn.

and when they are your unborn?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Why do anti-abortion folks always jump straight to PBA (soeaking of words, the medical term is 'intact dilation and extraction', but anti-abortion people always use the term 'partial birth abortion' as an appeal to emotion).

There are many of us who are pro-choice, but uncomfortable with late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. When the anti-abortion argument immediately jumps to late-term issues, it isn't a very interesting discussion for people like me - I would support the idea of banning abortions beyond the first trimester, except in the case of medical necessity (toxemia, etc).

But statements about PBA are not arguments against abortions in general, and never will be.

Still waiting for a citation of medical circumstances in which having a partial birth abortion is the only way to preserve the mother's health.

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs

So I'm sinning for believing that I don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have an abortion?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have a slave?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can kill a jew?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can download child pornography?

Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can have sex with an animal?

similarly:
Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can hunt?
Would you be sinning for believing that you don't have the right to tell someone whether or not they can use raid on a pesky hornet's nest?


For your last two "would you be sinning ....", I do not believe it is my right to tell them if they can/should do that or not. I strongly disagree with both, however. For the second one, I would have to withhold judgement, because I am a jew. For the first, in a certain time and place, it was considered acceptable.

Just like in some cultures twins are killed, or disfigured people are killed at birth. That is their culture, not mine, but it is not my right to go to them and tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Because while it seems very wrong to me, it is not wrong to them; they feel it is the right thing to do.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

That is their culture, not mine

let's just say rip and i are trying to bring about a culture of life. And if some don't like it but we have the majority that's just to bad, because in a federalism the bigger it is the more people get disenfranchised.

 

[MadRat]

Hey, the new republicans are pro-life except when abortion is okay in their opinion. What's the difference to that stance and pro-choice?

Oh, that's right. If the person is one of them then its okay. If they are not one of them it's wrong.

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

That is their culture, not mine

let's just say rip and i are trying to bring about a culture of life. And if some don't like it but we have the majority that's just to bad, because in a federalism the bigger it is the more people get disenfranchised.

seems to me like you believe your "culture" is better than everyone else's "culture", so you're trying to force it on the rest of the world. I prefer to let people decide for themselves what their "culture" will be.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Why do anti-abortion folks always jump straight to PBA (soeaking of words, the medical term is 'intact dilation and extraction', but anti-abortion people always use the term 'partial birth abortion' as an appeal to emotion).

There are many of us who are pro-choice, but uncomfortable with late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. When the anti-abortion argument immediately jumps to late-term issues, it isn't a very interesting discussion for people like me - I would support the idea of banning abortions beyond the first trimester, except in the case of medical necessity (toxemia, etc).

But statements about PBA are not arguments against abortions in general, and never will be.

Still waiting for a citation of medical circumstances in which having a partial birth abortion is the only way to preserve the mother's health.

Not that you remotely answered my post - as I said PBA and conventional abortion are not the same thing, but here you go:

linky

"Severe preeclampsia, at times, may be associated with oliguria, cerebral or visual disturbances, pulmonary edema or cyanosis, epigastric or right upper quadrant abdominal pain, impaired liver function, thrombocytopenia, or intrauterine growth restriction."

"Preeclampsia, a disorder associated with pregnancy that consists of hypertension and proteinuria, manifests most often after the 20th week of pregnancy"

Note that the late onset of symptoms means many patients might be too advanced inprgnancy by the time health becomes a severe concern to have a successful 'conventional' abortion.

My mother had severe toxemia late in her second prgnancy. If she had deteriorated any further, she would have had to risk her life, or have an abortion, and guess what? It would have been PBA.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

That is their culture, not mine

let's just say rip and i are trying to bring about a culture of life. And if some don't like it but we have the majority that's just to bad, because in a federalism the bigger it is the more people get disenfranchised.

Funny that pro-life is not understood to imply 'anti-death penalty' or 'anti-warfare'. In fact the accurate terms would be 'anti-choice' (due to the cultural understanding of choice as referring to women's choices about childbirth) or 'anti-abortion'. This does not imply that pro-abortion is the correct alternative, because the positions are not proper opposites. There is not a significant group whp believe abortions *should* happen, only a large group who believe they should be allowed to happen, at the discretion of the mother.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Not that you remotely answered my post - as I said PBA and conventional abortion are not the same thing, but here you go:

actually there is heated, well informed, debate over the issue; i don't understand the issue, but i understand those who do understand the issue honestly can't agree for reasons not related to support/disagreement with abortion.

the question actually centers around weather

My mother had severe toxemia late in her second pregnancy. If she had deteriorated any further, she would have had to risk her life, or have an abortion, and guess what? It would have been PBA.

at that point the infanticide would actually help with the problem.

 

[Steeplerot]

I would be fine with no abortions except in the cases of risk to a mothers life, as long as there are gay married couples to adopt the children.

seriously though, it is up to a woman what she does with her body. so what if she wants to be rid of a genetic mutation growing in her body like some cancer.

what next? mandatory saving of all menstural blood? jail sentances for those picking at a scab?...tissue is life too!

none of your buisness, if your worried about saving lives rethink your stance on sending grown adults to get there skulls blown out in a desert somewhere instead...that would be actually useful for something.

 

[NeenerNeener]

The right of a woman's sovereignty over her own body supercedes the life of an unborn child.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

haha!

so you don't see the genetically unique human life that will exist to be of any value?
and if so, do you agree with removing all funding for prenatal care?

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
haha!

so you don't see the genetically unique human life that will exist to be of any value?
and if so, do you agree with removing all funding for prenatal care?

haha!

so you don't see the genetically unique human life of a soldier that does exist to be of any value, and so don't care that they are being killed in Iraq and other places all over the world?

Seriously, which is more valuable: the life of an unborn fetus or that of a grown and developed human being who is cought in the middle of a civil war/genocide/revolution/disease epidemic/etc?

 

[Steeplerot]

how about you just call it "Fetal Collateral Damage" and leave the women alone already.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm all for choice if the choice is between keeping the child or putting it up for adoption.

I don't consider taking the life of an unborn a legitimate choice.

Well, too bad. I guess it sucks to hold fanatical beilefs and the rest of the civilized world to disagree with you.

Sticking a sharp object into the back of a baby's skull and sucking out its brains is civilized?

so was having sex with young boys at one time. Worry not rip, people receive in themselves justice for there sins.

it's the negative personal consequences that occur from abortions that we should help publicize in order to help reduce abortions. Make sure the selfish-reasons for not killing your unborn are well understood.

There are alot of things are that shown that humans disagree with such things as rape,stealing,murder but most of all incest or pedophiles.

The personal negative conseqences? Wow, nice change you've got going there, you dont care about the "life" of the "unborn" anymore? Typical Christian...

How old are you by the way?

Heh, Pro-Choice isn't pro-Abortion too bad you fail to understand that.

 

[0roo0roo]

whole debate is pointless considering how wasteful the conception process is. more then half of all these fertilized eggs fail because of chromosonal defects and such, most before the next period. and since these are fertilized eggs, and thus "life" according to some, they are all souls that are killed by mother nature...or god. this is the cruel wasteful machine designed by the creator. and that is the apparent value he placed on the fetus. the worst abortionist ever eh?

anti choice people have some sort of a fantasy idea of history it seems. the design of creation is dangerous and wasteful. especially before we became rich western democracies. heck, even abe lincoln had 3 outa 10 children die. and women dying in childbirht was very common in the past. heck these conditions exist in many poor countries today this is the value the designer placed on the process if you want to know the mind of god.

A Natural History of Families has a decent bit on it.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Why do anti-abortion folks always jump straight to PBA (soeaking of words, the medical term is 'intact dilation and extraction', but anti-abortion people always use the term 'partial birth abortion' as an appeal to emotion).

There are many of us who are pro-choice, but uncomfortable with late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. When the anti-abortion argument immediately jumps to late-term issues, it isn't a very interesting discussion for people like me - I would support the idea of banning abortions beyond the first trimester, except in the case of medical necessity (toxemia, etc).

But statements about PBA are not arguments against abortions in general, and never will be.

Still waiting for a citation of medical circumstances in which having a partial birth abortion is the only way to preserve the mother's health.

Not that you remotely answered my post - as I said PBA and conventional abortion are not the same thing, but here you go:

linky

"Severe preeclampsia, at times, may be associated with oliguria, cerebral or visual disturbances, pulmonary edema or cyanosis, epigastric or right upper quadrant abdominal pain, impaired liver function, thrombocytopenia, or intrauterine growth restriction."

"Preeclampsia, a disorder associated with pregnancy that consists of hypertension and proteinuria, manifests most often after the 20th week of pregnancy"

Note that the late onset of symptoms means many patients might be too advanced inprgnancy by the time health becomes a severe concern to have a successful 'conventional' abortion.

My mother had severe toxemia late in her second prgnancy. If she had deteriorated any further, she would have had to risk her life, or have an abortion, and guess what? It would have been PBA.

Don't see any reference to partial birth abortion in the medical or surgical treatments.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: zendari
I support abortion rights, but I also think pro-choice is a leftist terminology. If you support allowing people to have an abortion you are pro-abortion. Simple as that.

I thought you'd be for mandatory abortions since you hate kids... plus its more money for big business abortion providers and they can advertise!

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: zendari
I support abortion rights, but I also think pro-choice is a leftist terminology. If you support allowing people to have an abortion you are pro-abortion. Simple as that.

I thought you'd be for mandatory abortions since you hate kids... plus its more money for big business abortion providers and they can advertise!

how much you want to bet you wouldn't see any snazzy abortion ads out in the suburbs..

just like beer ads. save it for the ghettos.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: zendari
I support abortion rights, but I also think pro-choice is a leftist terminology. If you support allowing people to have an abortion you are pro-abortion. Simple as that.

I thought you'd be for mandatory abortions since you hate kids... plus its more money for big business abortion providers and they can advertise!

how much you want to bet you wouldn't see any snazzy abortion ads out in the suburbs..

just like beer ads. save it for the ghettos.

I think you'd see ads everywhere, actually. Rich white kids afraid of Daddy's country club reputation would be prime targets.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
The right of the Religious Republicans over a woman's sovereignty and her body supercedes all else.

Fixed for you

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Why do anti-abortion folks always jump straight to PBA (soeaking of words, the medical term is 'intact dilation and extraction', but anti-abortion people always use the term 'partial birth abortion' as an appeal to emotion).

There are many of us who are pro-choice, but uncomfortable with late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. When the anti-abortion argument immediately jumps to late-term issues, it isn't a very interesting discussion for people like me - I would support the idea of banning abortions beyond the first trimester, except in the case of medical necessity (toxemia, etc).

But statements about PBA are not arguments against abortions in general, and never will be.

Still waiting for a citation of medical circumstances in which having a partial birth abortion is the only way to preserve the mother's health.

Not that you remotely answered my post - as I said PBA and conventional abortion are not the same thing, but here you go:

linky

"Severe preeclampsia, at times, may be associated with oliguria, cerebral or visual disturbances, pulmonary edema or cyanosis, epigastric or right upper quadrant abdominal pain, impaired liver function, thrombocytopenia, or intrauterine growth restriction."

"Preeclampsia, a disorder associated with pregnancy that consists of hypertension and proteinuria, manifests most often after the 20th week of pregnancy"

Note that the late onset of symptoms means many patients might be too advanced inprgnancy by the time health becomes a severe concern to have a successful 'conventional' abortion.

My mother had severe toxemia late in her second prgnancy. If she had deteriorated any further, she would have had to risk her life, or have an abortion, and guess what? It would have been PBA.

Don't see any reference to partial birth abortion in the medical or surgical treatments.

For crying out loud Rip - read between the lines!

"The only definitive treatment for preeclampsia is delivery of the fetus and placenta."

If the baby is viable when the mother becomes too ill to continue the pregnancy, then you deliver a premie, if not, of if the mother makes a choice based onthe high probability of the child developy CF then you would perform a PBA. (note the concern in the treatment section for the unborn child's lungs).

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Why do anti-abortion folks always jump straight to PBA (soeaking of words, the medical term is 'intact dilation and extraction', but anti-abortion people always use the term 'partial birth abortion' as an appeal to emotion).

There are many of us who are pro-choice, but uncomfortable with late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. When the anti-abortion argument immediately jumps to late-term issues, it isn't a very interesting discussion for people like me - I would support the idea of banning abortions beyond the first trimester, except in the case of medical necessity (toxemia, etc).

But statements about PBA are not arguments against abortions in general, and never will be.

Still waiting for a citation of medical circumstances in which having a partial birth abortion is the only way to preserve the mother's health.

Not that you remotely answered my post - as I said PBA and conventional abortion are not the same thing, but here you go:

linky

"Severe preeclampsia, at times, may be associated with oliguria, cerebral or visual disturbances, pulmonary edema or cyanosis, epigastric or right upper quadrant abdominal pain, impaired liver function, thrombocytopenia, or intrauterine growth restriction."

"Preeclampsia, a disorder associated with pregnancy that consists of hypertension and proteinuria, manifests most often after the 20th week of pregnancy"

Note that the late onset of symptoms means many patients might be too advanced inprgnancy by the time health becomes a severe concern to have a successful 'conventional' abortion.

My mother had severe toxemia late in her second prgnancy. If she had deteriorated any further, she would have had to risk her life, or have an abortion, and guess what? It would have been PBA.

Don't see any reference to partial birth abortion in the medical or surgical treatments.

For crying out loud Rip - read between the lines!

"The only definitive treatment for preeclampsia is delivery of the fetus and placenta."

If the baby is viable when the mother becomes too ill to continue the pregnancy, then you deliver a premie, if not, of if the mother makes a choice based onthe high probability of the child developy CF then you would perform a PBA. (note the concern in the treatment section for the unborn child's lungs).

The recently enacted Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, Casper argued, would force her to sacrifice her own life or health if she develops a serious illness, such as "severe preeclampsia."

But in reality, as former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop and other eminent medical authorities told Congress, "partial-birth abortion is never medically necessary to protect a mother's health or her future fertility. On the contrary, this procedure can pose a significant threat to both."

In fact, the overwhelming majority of partial-birth abortions do not involve medical issues at all. Even the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, Ron Fitzsimmons, acknowledges that the method is used thousands of times annually, and that "in the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along."

During my first pregnancy in 1990, like Casper I was just a few days past the 27 week point when without warning I developed the most severe form of pre-eclampsia (called "HELLP syndrome"). My blood pressure rose steeply. My kidneys and liver began to fail. Doctors told us that unless the pregnancy was ended immediately, I would die -- and with me, our unborn son, Thomas...

Fortunately, our doctors knew that they had two patients in crisis, not just one. The pregnancy was indeed immediately terminated -- Thomas was delivered by emergency caesarian.

My condition immediately improved, but for weeks Thomas had to struggle for life. At birth, he weighed just one pound, 12 ounces. Days after birth, his grandfather -- a Wisconsin outdoorsman -- saw our baby in his neonatal incubator and thought to himself that Thomas had the size and hairless appearance of a "skinned squirrel."

Yet, today Thomas is an eighth-grade honor student. He has many interests and enthusiasms, including acting in plays and writing short stories.

Link

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Why do anti-abortion folks always jump straight to PBA (soeaking of words, the medical term is 'intact dilation and extraction', but anti-abortion people always use the term 'partial birth abortion' as an appeal to emotion).

There are many of us who are pro-choice, but uncomfortable with late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. When the anti-abortion argument immediately jumps to late-term issues, it isn't a very interesting discussion for people like me - I would support the idea of banning abortions beyond the first trimester, except in the case of medical necessity (toxemia, etc).

But statements about PBA are not arguments against abortions in general, and never will be.

Still waiting for a citation of medical circumstances in which having a partial birth abortion is the only way to preserve the mother's health.

Not that you remotely answered my post - as I said PBA and conventional abortion are not the same thing, but here you go:

linky

"Severe preeclampsia, at times, may be associated with oliguria, cerebral or visual disturbances, pulmonary edema or cyanosis, epigastric or right upper quadrant abdominal pain, impaired liver function, thrombocytopenia, or intrauterine growth restriction."

"Preeclampsia, a disorder associated with pregnancy that consists of hypertension and proteinuria, manifests most often after the 20th week of pregnancy"

Note that the late onset of symptoms means many patients might be too advanced inprgnancy by the time health becomes a severe concern to have a successful 'conventional' abortion.

My mother had severe toxemia late in her second prgnancy. If she had deteriorated any further, she would have had to risk her life, or have an abortion, and guess what? It would have been PBA.

Don't see any reference to partial birth abortion in the medical or surgical treatments.

For crying out loud Rip - read between the lines!

"The only definitive treatment for preeclampsia is delivery of the fetus and placenta."

If the baby is viable when the mother becomes too ill to continue the pregnancy, then you deliver a premie, if not, of if the mother makes a choice based onthe high probability of the child developy CF then you would perform a PBA. (note the concern in the treatment section for the unborn child's lungs).

The recently enacted Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, Casper argued, would force her to sacrifice her own life or health if she develops a serious illness, such as "severe preeclampsia."

But in reality, as former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop and other eminent medical authorities told Congress, "partial-birth abortion is never medically necessary to protect a mother's health or her future fertility. On the contrary, this procedure can pose a significant threat to both."

In fact, the overwhelming majority of partial-birth abortions do not involve medical issues at all. Even the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, Ron Fitzsimmons, acknowledges that the method is used thousands of times annually, and that "in the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along."

During my first pregnancy in 1990, like Casper I was just a few days past the 27 week point when without warning I developed the most severe form of pre-eclampsia (called "HELLP syndrome"). My blood pressure rose steeply. My kidneys and liver began to fail. Doctors told us that unless the pregnancy was ended immediately, I would die -- and with me, our unborn son, Thomas...

Fortunately, our doctors knew that they had two patients in crisis, not just one. The pregnancy was indeed immediately terminated -- Thomas was delivered by emergency caesarian.

My condition immediately improved, but for weeks Thomas had to struggle for life. At birth, he weighed just one pound, 12 ounces. Days after birth, his grandfather -- a Wisconsin outdoorsman -- saw our baby in his neonatal incubator and thought to himself that Thomas had the size and hairless appearance of a "skinned squirrel."

Yet, today Thomas is an eighth-grade honor student. He has many interests and enthusiasms, including acting in plays and writing short stories.

Link

Interestingly there is no mention of whether Thomas has severe health problems; certainly prmies born a 'full moth earlier' would do so in most cases. Just because the baby survives doesn't mean it survives 'healthy'.

At any rate, since I've already expressed my discomfort with truly 'voluntary' PBA, then you should already know I would support the PBA ban, as worded, so long as PBA remains a valid treatment of conditions like toxemia in severely premature situations.

More importantly, you could convince the whole world about PBA, and you won't have made a significant dent in support for a women's right to choose during early-pregnancy.