Pro-choice actually pro-abortion?

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: jahawkin

So pro-life until birth is an accurate way of describing your ideaology. Everyone gets to start out but then you're on your own from there.

That's a bit of an over-simplification, but yeah, if that's the only way you can wrap your mind around it, sure. We have laws protecting a mother from killing her 1-minute-old baby, her 3-month old baby, her 4-year-old toddler, her 45-year-old kid, so why should her -5-month-old be any differnt? Why does breaching the vaginal opening suddenly grant you immunity from harm?

You acknowledge that there is a difference between a 5 month old fetus and a 1 day old fetus resulting from a rape victim. Why is a fetuses presence in a womb for a few months suddenly grant you immunity from harm.

If someone is not mentally, emotionally, or financially prepared to deal with the worst-case scenario caused by his or her actions, then perhaps he or she should think twice before engaging in said actions.

So, once again, in your view, people should not have sex unless than can afford/care for an accident if it should occur. And should an accident occur and the woman has an abortion in the first month is this ok/not ok with you??

If you are a women who engages in potential baby-making activities, then you have to own up to your responsibilities. Carry the baby to term, then either raise it or put it up for adoption.

From this is sounds like having an abortion if you accidentally get preganant is not OK. So it is about sex, is it not. Don't have sex unless you can "own up" to your responsibilities.

Later you say:

I've very moderate on this issue, so if you'd really like to engage in a screaming and yelling fight with someone, I suggest you find some rabid pro-lifer who wants to save every multi-cell organism (if you can find such a person.) I know it's easier to just lump us all together into that potentially fictitious mindset, but it's intellectually dishonest of you to do so, IMO.

So you agree that abortions are fine up until a certain point. The problem is that most of the pro-life movement which you align yourself with is, as you describe, "rabid." Bush wants to save most multi-cell organisms (his stance on stem cell research). A very large majority of the abortions performed in this country are well within the "grey area" that you talk of, yet the pro-life movement isn't satisified at the current state of affiars.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: jahawkin

...

No offense, but you continue to pick and chose certain statements of mine, across multiple posts, while ignoring all the supporting ones. You have continually ignored my point about the difference between a rape VICTIM and a woman who voluntarily engages in baby-making activites.

I'm just going to end this here. I'll continue to debate to Tab, if he choses, as I have seen him be reasonable. You can continue flailing about, if you wish, but I'm putting you on mute. You can even claim that "you win" if you want.

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: jahawkin

...

No offense, but you continue to pick and chose certain statements of mine, across multiple posts, while ignoring all the supporting ones. You have continually ignored my point about the difference between a rape VICTIM and a woman who voluntarily engages in baby-making activites.

I'm just going to end this here. I'll continue to debate to Tab, if he choses, as I have seen him be reasonable. You can continue flailing about, if you wish, but I'm putting you on mute. You can even claim that "you win" if you want.

Ok, so one is a victim of rape and one is the victim of a faulty condom. I am aware of the difference between the rape victim and the willful participant. My point is why does that matter, in relation to the baby on board? I see you clarified and said there was grey area, so clearly you think abortion is fine during a certain timeframe. Perhaps if you stated this earlier and not used the extreme contrast of a day old and five month old fetus, your position would have been a bit more clear. I'm sorry that you get upset when I point out to obvious inconsistencies in what I thought was your view before you clarified it.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: jahawkin

...

No offense, but you continue to pick and chose certain statements of mine, across multiple posts, while ignoring all the supporting ones. You have continually ignored my point about the difference between a rape VICTIM and a woman who voluntarily engages in baby-making activites.

I'm just going to end this here. I'll continue to debate to Tab, if he choses, as I have seen him be reasonable. You can continue flailing about, if you wish, but I'm putting you on mute. You can even claim that "you win" if you want.

Both pro-life and pro-choice advocates agree: there is no difference in the 'hu an being' status of the fetus depending on whether it was the result of rape. Therefore the rules really do have to be the same for everyone.

Now, I tend to agree that late-term, and maybe even all second-trimester abortions are inappropriate except as dictated by severe health concerns; I would be happy to see restrictions that force women to make a decision earlier in the ir pregnancy, and I'm not particularly a fan of abortions-of-convenience, but I doubt anything could be done about that, realistically.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Both pro-life and pro-choice advocates agree: there is no difference in the 'hu an being' status of the fetus depending on whether it was the result of rape. Therefore the rules really do have to be the same for everyone.

Now, I tend to agree that late-term, and maybe even all second-trimester abortions are inappropriate except as dictated by severe health concerns; I would be happy to see restrictions that force women to make a decision earlier in the ir pregnancy, and I'm not particularly a fan of abortions-of-convenience, but I doubt anything could be done about that, realistically.

No, the status of the fetus does not change based on circumstances in which it was conceived, I agree.

I dunno. Make the analogy to bankruptcy. We give an allowance to those who find themselves in financial chaos, whether by no fault of their own (medical bills) or through irresponsible behavior (numerous credit cards and other consumer debt). But we don't let them declare bankruptcy every 3-6 months when they continually choose to be irresponsible. I think it's offered one per ever 7 years or so. A similiar limit could be placed on abortions-of-conveninces, perhaps.

I know many pro-choice people like to pretend these cases don't exist, but there *are* people who use abortions as a means of birth control. My wife has a friend who had 5 abortions in a 2.5 year span. We are no longer close friends with her because of her irresponsibility (and believe me, my wife thinks I'm *way* to liberal when it comes to the topic of abortion - you guys would send her into shock )

 

[NeenerNeener]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: CreativeTom

Originally posted by: Tab

Pro-Choice says exactly what it means, the support of choices. If you fail to understand this, you've got serious issuses.

Thank god someone understands

On a side note, I don't think I'd ever advocate an abortion. I'd also have a hard time having any relationship with a women who has had one.

Since this is more or less anonymous. I'll confide.
My wife had one when she was sixteen. The doctor's procedure didn't go right and she became very ill. Women can die from having abortions. Practically speaking, I believe if it were illegal, then more scared young women would resort to the coat hanger. I can't, in good conscience, believe in a society that allows this to happen. I may never have met my wife. I understand if she would have waited longer to have one, it would have been worse. I just don't think this is a place the government should be allowed to go.

BTW...If any of you wants to call her a whore, I suggest you do it to my face.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Both pro-life and pro-choice advocates agree: there is no difference in the 'hu an being' status of the fetus depending on whether it was the result of rape. Therefore the rules really do have to be the same for everyone.

Now, I tend to agree that late-term, and maybe even all second-trimester abortions are inappropriate except as dictated by severe health concerns; I would be happy to see restrictions that force women to make a decision earlier in the ir pregnancy, and I'm not particularly a fan of abortions-of-convenience, but I doubt anything could be done about that, realistically.

No, the status of the fetus does not change based on circumstances in which it was conceived, I agree.

I dunno. Make the analogy to bankruptcy. We give an allowance to those who find themselves in financial chaos, whether by no fault of their own (medical bills) or through irresponsible behavior (numerous credit cards and other consumer debt). But we don't let them declare bankruptcy every 3-6 months when they continually choose to be irresponsible. I think it's offered one per ever 7 years or so. A similiar limit could be placed on abortions-of-conveninces, perhaps.

I know many pro-choice people like to pretend these cases don't exist, but there *are* people who use abortions as a means of birth control. My wife has a friend who had 5 abortions in a 2.5 year span. We are no longer close friends with her because of her irresponsibility (and believe me, my wife thinks I'm *way* to liberal when it comes to the topic of abortion - you guys would send her into shock )

But you don't deal with those people by imposing on everyone else.

My point is though, that if the fetus 'matters' then you can't have an analogue to bankruptcy, and if it doesn't, then why should there be restrictions at all? My position is based on believing that at some point the fetus becomes a human, with some rights: at a minimum, the right to life. I don't know, and no one else does either, when this might be, but I tend to think the first trimester is a safe cutoff point.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: CreativeTom

Originally posted by: Tab

Pro-Choice says exactly what it means, the support of choices. If you fail to understand this, you've got serious issuses.

Thank god someone understands

On a side note, I don't think I'd ever advocate an abortion. I'd also have a hard time having any relationship with a women who has had one.

Since this is more or less anonymous. I'll confide.
My wife had one when she was sixteen. The doctor's procedure didn't go right and she became very ill. Women can die from having abortions. Practically speaking, I believe if it were illegal, then more scared young women would resort to the coat hanger. I can't, in good conscience, believe in a society that allows this to happen. I may never have met my wife. I understand if she would have waited longer to have one, it would have been worse. I just don't think this is a place the government should be allowed to go.

BTW...If any of you wants to call her a whore, I suggest you do it to my face.

Not trying to be any offensive at all or anything, just expressing what I feel. The fact what your wife did some odd years ago doesn't really affect me or anyone else. Which leads to the fact I don't care.

Though it seems she meet and married a pretty decent guy... Maybe I could get along with her

 

[NeenerNeener]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: CreativeTom

Originally posted by: Tab

Pro-Choice says exactly what it means, the support of choices. If you fail to understand this, you've got serious issuses.

Thank god someone understands

On a side note, I don't think I'd ever advocate an abortion. I'd also have a hard time having any relationship with a women who has had one.

Since this is more or less anonymous. I'll confide.
My wife had one when she was sixteen. The doctor's procedure didn't go right and she became very ill. Women can die from having abortions. Practically speaking, I believe if it were illegal, then more scared young women would resort to the coat hanger. I can't, in good conscience, believe in a society that allows this to happen. I may never have met my wife. I understand if she would have waited longer to have one, it would have been worse. I just don't think this is a place the government should be allowed to go.

BTW...If any of you wants to call her a whore, I suggest you do it to my face.

Not trying to be any offensive at all or anything, just expressing what I feel. The fact what your wife did some odd years ago doesn't really affect me or anyone else. Which leads to the fact I don't care.

Though it seems she meet and married a pretty decent guy... Maybe I could get along with her

Thanks Tab.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: CreativeTom

Originally posted by: Tab

Pro-Choice says exactly what it means, the support of choices. If you fail to understand this, you've got serious issuses.

Thank god someone understands

On a side note, I don't think I'd ever advocate an abortion. I'd also have a hard time having any relationship with a women who has had one.

Since this is more or less anonymous. I'll confide.
My wife had one when she was sixteen. The doctor's procedure didn't go right and she became very ill. Women can die from having abortions. Practically speaking, I believe if it were illegal, then more scared young women would resort to the coat hanger. I can't, in good conscience, believe in a society that allows this to happen. I may never have met my wife. I understand if she would have waited longer to have one, it would have been worse. I just don't think this is a place the government should be allowed to go.

BTW...If any of you wants to call her a whore, I suggest you do it to my face.

Not trying to be any offensive at all or anything, just expressing what I feel. The fact what your wife did some odd years ago doesn't really affect me or anyone else. Which leads to the fact I don't care.

Though it seems she meet and married a pretty decent guy... Maybe I could get along with her

Thanks Tab.

While I am only 19 and I am not the old. In my personal experince those that are more educated are generally liberal. Not to mention those that are more liberal generally have much better standards in life. Not to mention they seem to live more "successfull", "happier" and "honerable" lives...

Where someone stands politically is generally a reflection of that person.

I am working my way towards that I am doing my best to do that... This forum helps me out sometimes...

....

On a side note... I'd say a lot people would share the beilef that they don't feel that zygote is a human but they feel the something that has a brain and more of a human body is closer to a person. I don't think anyone has mention before, who the hell was it... John Locke? That babies had "tabula Rasa" blank minds, they knew nothing therefore they didn't really exsist at that point.

 

[Lifted]

Pro-life and pro-choice are both political slogans used to infer something about the other side of the debate, more than to define their own position.

If you aren't pro-life, you must be pro-death / anti-life.

If you aren't pro-choice, you must be anti-choice.

Pro-choice came about as a result of the right wing new speak machine insinuating that everyone who wan't anti-abortion was pro-death. Congrats to the left for actually having a good comeback with the pro-choice campaign.


"They totally ignore the slew of good couples who want a child and could have there desire to raise a child met by way of adoption."

That would mean more to me if there weren't already millions of homeless, starving children in the world who would love nothin else than to be adopted. But they aren't white, so who wants em. :disgust:

 

[jakedeez]

no dont be stupid

 

[Intelia]

Originally posted by: shoegazer
it isn't a baby. it's a fetus.

YES it is a fetus and it is feeding that makes it alive. If you believe in God almighty you are killing much more than a fetus there is a soul involved here.(no debate on this please)

You all talk about a mothers rights fine I can understand that. But what about the fathers rights. It would be a wonderful world if everthing was black and white but the truth is everything is covered over with gray.

Gay rights is an issue its wrong and thats my opion . For an example lets take my state MN. and my boarding state Wisconsin .

Lets give the state of MN to male gays. Wisconsin to female. Just gays in these 2 states . know interaction between gays and straights. 100 years from now guess what there are no gays.
We all have the same DNA so so called gays using it was in there gene's is pure BS its in all are genes. Thats were free choose comes into play.
If you believe in the Lord and morality you are forced in your life to make certain chooses this applies to abortion also.
Basicly it comes down to 1 thing and 1 thing only.
Do you believe we are human beings or animals there is no 3rd choose. I choose to believe we are human so I have to take a stand on certain issues.

Now after saying that I believe there are times when abortion is alright . 2 examples would be Rape (not Sat.) and mothers life. Yet both of these are ?

 

[Intelia]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm all for choice if the choice is between keeping the child or putting it up for adoption.

I don't consider taking the life of an unborn a legitimate choice.

Well, too bad. I guess it sucks to hold fanatical beilefs and the rest of the civilized world to disagree with you.

So your saying that because the whole world majority population is the primise to determine right and wrong is that correct?
The majority population in the world would like to see USA go away . So send me your adderess I well send you a gun and you can do what the majority wants you to do end it all . You talk about fanatical beliefs and you spread the worst belief of all the majority is right.

 

[Tab]

My response to "Intelia" posts....

:roll:

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Tab
My response to "Intelia" posts....

:roll:

I *hate* it when I have to agree with Tab! :|

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Tab
My response to "Intelia" posts....

:roll:

I *hate* it when I have to agree with Tab! :|

OWNED!

 

[Intelia]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Tab
My response to "Intelia" posts....

:roll:

I *hate* it when I have to agree with Tab! :|

OWNED!

Your absolutly correct I am owned(not) . But you see I stand against the majority.
If you pick up the majority flag you should clarify. Majority in your own home,county,state. country or world . If you choose anything but World you are showing self interest only. You are owned. If you choose world your a fool and really owned .
Fact is I am free never ever owned. I choose to be created in Gods image. You choose to be the same as a skunk,jackass,,buzzard,shark or praying mantis your choose was to be an animal . I like my choose way better ! Owned my arse.

 

[Tab]

Drugs are bad okay?

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: Intelia

Originally posted by: shoegazer
it isn't a baby. it's a fetus.

YES it is a fetus and it is feeding that makes it alive. If you believe in God almighty you are killing much more than a fetus there is a soul involved here.(no debate on this please)

You all talk about a mothers rights fine I can understand that. But what about the fathers rights. It would be a wonderful world if everthing was black and white but the truth is everything is covered over with gray.

Gay rights is an issue its wrong and thats my opion . For an example lets take my state MN. and my boarding state Wisconsin .

Lets give the state of MN to male gays. Wisconsin to female. Just gays in these 2 states . know interaction between gays and straights. 100 years from now guess what there are no gays.
We all have the same DNA so so called gays using it was in there gene's is pure BS its in all are genes. Thats were free choose comes into play.
If you believe in the Lord and morality you are forced in your life to make certain chooses this applies to abortion also.
Basicly it comes down to 1 thing and 1 thing only.
Do you believe we are human beings or animals there is no 3rd choose. I choose to believe we are human so I have to take a stand on certain issues.

Now after saying that I believe there are times when abortion is alright . 2 examples would be Rape (not Sat.) and mothers life. Yet both of these are ?

so when a fetus dies naturally a soul is being killed? Face it: things die, its the way of nature.

ANd this brings me back to the other point .... you are a "good christian." So you feel that a sould is being killed during an abortion. But others aren't "good christians" and so they don't share this belief. And yet you believe your belief is better than everyone else's, and so it should be a law. If you do'nt like abortions, don't have one.

Also, you believe a soul is being killed during an abortion, but what about war? I can be fairly certain you were for the war in Iraq, while knowing full well that men would have to die to win that war (meaning souls would die too). Why do you care more about the life of an unborn fetus than that of a full grown soldier?

 

[MadRat]

Souls don't die.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Intelia

Your absolutly correct I am owned(not) . But you see I stand against the majority.
If you pick up the majority flag you should clarify. Majority in your own home,county,state. country or world . If you choose anything but World you are showing self interest only. You are owned. If you choose world your a fool and really owned .
Fact is I am free never ever owned. I choose to be created in Gods image. You choose to be the same as a skunk,jackass,,buzzard,shark or praying mantis your choose was to be an animal . I like my choose way better ! Owned my arse.

No.. words.. should have.. sent.. a.. psychatrist.

 

[Intelia]

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs

Originally posted by: Intelia

Originally posted by: shoegazer
it isn't a baby. it's a fetus.

YES it is a fetus and it is feeding that makes it alive. If you believe in God almighty you are killing much more than a fetus there is a soul involved here.(no debate on this please)

You all talk about a mothers rights fine I can understand that. But what about the fathers rights. It would be a wonderful world if everthing was black and white but the truth is everything is covered over with gray.

Gay rights is an issue its wrong and thats my opion . For an example lets take my state MN. and my boarding state Wisconsin .

Lets give the state of MN to male gays. Wisconsin to female. Just gays in these 2 states . know interaction between gays and straights. 100 years from now guess what there are no gays.
We all have the same DNA so so called gays using it was in there gene's is pure BS its in all are genes. Thats were free choose comes into play.
If you believe in the Lord and morality you are forced in your life to make certain chooses this applies to abortion also.
Basicly it comes down to 1 thing and 1 thing only.
Do you believe we are human beings or animals there is no 3rd choose. I choose to believe we are human so I have to take a stand on certain issues.

Now after saying that I believe there are times when abortion is alright . 2 examples would be Rape (not Sat.) and mothers life. Yet both of these are ?

so when a fetus dies naturally a soul is being killed? Face it: things die, its the way of nature.

ANd this brings me back to the other point .... you are a "good christian." So you feel that a sould is being killed during an abortion. But others aren't "good christians" and so they don't share this belief. And yet you believe your belief is better than everyone else's, and so it should be a law. If you do'nt like abortions, don't have one.

Also, you believe a soul is being killed during an abortion, but what about war? I can be fairly certain you were for the war in Iraq, while knowing full well that men would have to die to win that war (meaning souls would die too). Why do you care more about the life of an unborn fetus than that of a full grown soldier?

First things first I believe in the living word of God Almighty who is the Christ. I how ever am not good christian. There is no religious organization in the world today that I except.
THE teachings of Christ are Faith based. The gosphel of Christ is God'S living words. There are no faith based religions in the world many claim they are but there actions show them to be liars.If you live according to Gods living words you wouldn't believe in any of this stuff Abortion, Gay rights, war ect. ect. ect. You know the song.

Souls don't die but they do have a right to live in the real world. Yes Animals die but they have no souls. If you deny God you believe that what you are is a higher form of animal. I reject that. If man evolved there is a real problem with the population of the world. Its not big enough.

I will see you all in hell that is the one thing Iam very sure of. Yes I did support Bush on Iraq . I was against Nam but my husband fought there. I would have been against Korea . I would have been for kicking Hitlers ARSE. I would have been Against WW1 . I would have been for cival war on the slavery issue only . On states rights I would have sided with the south.(This is a very complacated issue.) (Slaves were freed a very very good thing) But the constition of the USA was compromised for all time never to be fixed again.

You see I believe but I lack Faith thats the end of me .

 

[MicroChrome]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm all for choice if the choice is between keeping the child or putting it up for adoption.

I don't consider taking the life of an unborn a legitimate choice.

Well, too bad. I guess it sucks to hold fanatical beilefs and the rest of the civilized world to disagree with you.

Sticking a sharp object into the back of a baby's skull and sucking out its brains is civilized?

Would you perfer a coat hanger?

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: Intelia

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs

Originally posted by: Intelia

Originally posted by: shoegazer
it isn't a baby. it's a fetus.

YES it is a fetus and it is feeding that makes it alive. If you believe in God almighty you are killing much more than a fetus there is a soul involved here.(no debate on this please)

You all talk about a mothers rights fine I can understand that. But what about the fathers rights. It would be a wonderful world if everthing was black and white but the truth is everything is covered over with gray.

Gay rights is an issue its wrong and thats my opion . For an example lets take my state MN. and my boarding state Wisconsin .

Lets give the state of MN to male gays. Wisconsin to female. Just gays in these 2 states . know interaction between gays and straights. 100 years from now guess what there are no gays.
We all have the same DNA so so called gays using it was in there gene's is pure BS its in all are genes. Thats were free choose comes into play.
If you believe in the Lord and morality you are forced in your life to make certain chooses this applies to abortion also.
Basicly it comes down to 1 thing and 1 thing only.
Do you believe we are human beings or animals there is no 3rd choose. I choose to believe we are human so I have to take a stand on certain issues.

Now after saying that I believe there are times when abortion is alright . 2 examples would be Rape (not Sat.) and mothers life. Yet both of these are ?

so when a fetus dies naturally a soul is being killed? Face it: things die, its the way of nature.

ANd this brings me back to the other point .... you are a "good christian." So you feel that a sould is being killed during an abortion. But others aren't "good christians" and so they don't share this belief. And yet you believe your belief is better than everyone else's, and so it should be a law. If you do'nt like abortions, don't have one.

Also, you believe a soul is being killed during an abortion, but what about war? I can be fairly certain you were for the war in Iraq, while knowing full well that men would have to die to win that war (meaning souls would die too). Why do you care more about the life of an unborn fetus than that of a full grown soldier?

First things first I believe in the living word of God Almighty who is the Christ. I how ever am not good christian. There is no religious organization in the world today that I except.
THE teachings of Christ are Faith based. The gosphel of Christ is God'S living words. There are no faith based religions in the world many claim they are but there actions show them to be liars.If you live according to Gods living words you wouldn't believe in any of this stuff Abortion, Gay rights, war ect. ect. ect. You know the song.

Souls don't die but they do have a right to live in the real world. Yes Animals die but they have no souls. If you deny God you believe that what you are is a higher form of animal. I reject that. If man evolved there is a real problem with the population of the world. Its not big enough.

I will see you all in hell that is the one thing Iam very sure of. Yes I did support Bush on Iraq . I was against Nam but my husband fought there. I would have been against Korea . I would have been for kicking Hitlers ARSE. I would have been Against WW1 . I would have been for cival war on the slavery issue only . On states rights I would have sided with the south.(This is a very complacated issue.) (Slaves were freed a very very good thing) But the constition of the USA was compromised for all time never to be fixed again.

You see I believe but I lack Faith thats the end of me .

Religion and government should be two completely separate issues. We live under a government which separates the two, and therefore we should not base our political beliefs on our religious beliefs.