Pro-Israel pressure strong in US

[firewall]

Since the start of the current violence in Lebanon, the United States' position has remained consistent: it is only sensible to have an Israeli ceasefire when it can be a sustainable one.

In other words, when Hezbollah has been sufficiently weakened to no longer pose a threat.

That is a view that has been at odds with many European nations, who have argued for an immediate Israeli ceasefire.

The reasons for that difference in emphasis are complex but many people point to the power of the Israel lobby in the United States as a key factor.

The leading organisation trying to secure US support for Israel is Aipac, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

Aipac is a special interest group established more than 50 years ago.

Today it has more than 100,000 members across 50 states.

It regularly holds meetings with members of Congress and provides analysis of the voting records of US lawmakers.

'No dark caves'

Whilst Aipac is the largest pro-Israel group in America, there are many other organisations representing Jewish interests in the US - interests that often coincide with those of Israel.

"There's not a great conspiracy where at seven o'clock in the morning we meet in a cave and discuss strategy together," says William Daroff from the United Jewish Communities, an umbrella organisation for American Jewish groups.

"Of course we speak with other Jewish groups about Israel, but there's no co-ordinated programme."

United Jewish Communities is just one of a number of organisations promoting Israel's interests in Washington.

Stephen Walt of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government co-wrote a recent paper outlining what he regards as the power of the Israel lobby on US policy.

"They can help you or hurt you, depending on whether or not they like what you stand for," he told the BBC in a recent interview.

Changing loyalties

Part of the power wielded by the lobby is electoral.

Jewish voters make up less than 3% of the US electorate but they are an important voting block.

Historically the majority of them have voted for the Democratic Party.

There is some evidence that is changing.

Over the last 20 years a new generation of young Jewish voters seems to be more evenly split in its loyalty to the two main parties.

Back in 2000, the Jewish vote in Florida was a key factor in the Republican victory there, and by extension nationwide.

Christian backing

But Israel also gets support from another, far larger voting block - evangelical Christians.

More than one in three Americans describe themselves as "born-again" or "evangelical" Christians, according to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

Last month Pastor John Hagee led a 3,400-strong delegation to Congress in support of Israel.

He leads a group called Christians United For Israel, which regards support for Israel as a religious imperative.

"Israel is the only nation Christians are told to pray for in the Bible," he said in a recent interview.

"Because the Bible is the compass of our faith, we do what it says. Every anti-Semite is going to spend eternity in hell without God."

Clearly the pro-Israel lobby in the United States is significantly stronger than in European nations, for example.

So it is not surprising that Israel receives significantly more financial assistance from the United States than from any other country.

Every year, $3bn flow from the US to Israel in economic and military aid.

Israel has been Washington's largest recipient of aid for 30 years.

The prevailing political culture in the United States may appear to favour Israel.

But that mood is not necessarily shared by all Americans.

A recent poll in the New York Times suggested that a slight majority of Americans feel their government should not be unquestioning in its support for Israel's war against Hezbollah.

If that begins to influence congressmen against supporting Israel, the power of the Israel lobby will be put to the test.

Text

The British media is also telling about the pro-Israeli lobbies and their effects on our policies.

I would love to see the events when the last line of the article comes true. It is time we realize it and take action. Unless we do that, we will remain mere sheep.

 

[Red Dawn]

N/M

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
N/M

 

[Aisengard]

Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

 

[Trente]

You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

 

[yllus]

It is only sensible to have an Israeli ceasefire when it can be a sustainable one.

Only thing that makes sense to me too. The UN has already been established in Lebanon since 2000, and that force allowed the current situation to flourish. So while allowing the current hostilities is certainly regrettable, do we not owe it to Israel and the pledge of allowing it to defend itself as a sovereign nation to let it finish this fight?

Recognizing the war's root causes is important, not only to appreciate the basis for the conflict, but the framework for its resolution. That resolution should be organized around the following initiatives and undertakings:

1. A comprehensive and enduring ceasefire and framework for the cessation of hostilities must be put in place.

2. The central principle of UN Security Council Resolution 242 -- the recognition of all states, including Israel, to live within secure and recognized boundaries -- must be expressly reaffirmed. It is the continuing assault on this seminal UN Resolution and cornerstone of Canadian foreign policy that plagues the region.

3. That same UN Security Council Resolution 242 -- and others that followed -- also affirm the political independence and territorial integrity of Lebanon. This requires the implementation by the Lebanese government, with international assistance, of UN Security Council Resolution 1559. Hezbollah is a threat not only to the safety and security of Israel, but to a free and sovereign Lebanon. The status of a Hezbollah acting as a terrorist state within a state must end.

4. A robust international protection and stabilization force will be required with the necessary composition, capacity, leadership and rules of engagement to enforce a ceasefire, and to assist the Lebanese government to extend its authority throughout Lebanon.

5. The international protection and stabilization force should also have a primary responsibility for the interdiction of weapons shipments to Hezbollah from both Iran and Syria.

6. The UN should also establish a supervisory force to locate and clear out Hezbollah's arms caches, bunkers and tunnels, many embedded in civilian areas.

7. The Hezbollah Al-Manar television station -- and other media that propagate a culture of hatred -- must be closed down.

8. A massive humanitarian effort for the reconstruction of Lebanon and the affected areas of Israel will be required, in which Canada can play an important contributory role.

The death of any innocent -- Israeli, Lebanese, Palestinian -- is a tragedy. It is urgent to act now for a just resolution and the prevention of further tragedies.

 

[StepUp]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

What about a country like Turkey? This isn't meant to be sarcastic, just a youngin' trying to understand how one democracy has worked in this region while so many others continue to be dictatorships. Anyone that can explain feel free to chime in.

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

Israel is "progressively Democratic" in the same way that the US was in the early 18th century... when a slave was counted as being 3/5 of a human and didn't have the right to vote.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

Israel is "progressively Democratic" in the same way that the US was in the early 18th century... when a slave was counted as being 3/5 of a human and didn't have the right to vote.

But all Israelis have rights to vote, as well as any other right. There are some practical differences, but they are no more or less than in other places. For example, most of Israeli Arabs don't serve in the army, despite it being required by law. A case of a country adjusting itself to its minorities.

Anyway, haven't the US politics always been based on lobbies? Oil industry, car industry, media industry, and yes, Jewish lobbies too. What's the difference?

BBC don't like it as they are mostly biased against Israel, but they could have just as well made an article about the MPAA passing draconian laws. And how much electorcal power does MPAA represent?

 

[Harabec]

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

Israel is "progressively Democratic" in the same way that the US was in the early 18th century... when a slave was counted as being 3/5 of a human and didn't have the right to vote.

Please be more specific about who you're referring to as a slave.
Israeli-Arab citizens can vote just like "us" jewish citizens.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: Trente
You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

Go back and hide under the bed

:roll:

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Trente
You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

Go back and hide under the bed

:roll:

notice how he doesnt provide one ounce of proof for his incoherant ramblings

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Trente
You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

Go back and hide under the bed

:roll:

notice how he doesnt provide one ounce of proof for his incoherant ramblings

He doesn't provide one ounce of proof because he doesn't need to. People who realize the world they're living in have long ago understood exactly what he's claiming. The rest will need another 9/11 to understand. We almost had one of those recently.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Trente
You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

Go back and hide under the bed

:roll:

notice how he doesnt provide one ounce of proof for his incoherant ramblings

Hmm, what kind of proof are you looking for? Is the disagreement upon the aims of Hezbollah - do you feel they're against Israel, or against the West in general?

Most of Hezbollah's political views are of the traditional Islamic bent. For instance, the official position of Hezbollah is that homosexuality is a crime. They have provided ample evidence that they are willing to use violence to extend their political agenda. You believe they would be happy to confine their eyes to Lebanon/Israel if they win that war?

 

[Tom]

Here's the opinion of one plain old American from Ohio..

1. Europe as a whole is unprincipled and likes to hide under their blanket.

2. I support the principle underlying Israel's recent actions, their right to defend themselves, but think those actions won't get them where they want to be.

3. My President doesn't know wtf he is doing.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

Israel is "progressively Democratic" in the same way that the US was in the early 18th century... when a slave was counted as being 3/5 of a human and didn't have the right to vote.

But all Israelis have rights to vote, as well as any other right. There are some practical differences, but they are no more or less than in other places. For example, most of Israeli Arabs don't serve in the army, despite it being required by law. A case of a country adjusting itself to its minorities.

Anyway, haven't the US politics always been based on lobbies? Oil industry, car industry, media industry, and yes, Jewish lobbies too. What's the difference?

BBC don't like it as they are mostly biased against Israel, but they could have just as well made an article about the MPAA passing draconian laws. And how much electorcal power does MPAA represent?

BBC is not biased against Israel, stop trying to play the victim card

The corporate lobbies you speak of are bad too, but they have little effect on our foreign policy. They primarily affect domestic policy. The trouble with the pro-Israel lobbies is here we are as a veto power UN member pretending to be a broker for peace in the Middle East between Arabs and Israel - but our loyalties are heavily swayed towards Israel because of their over-representation in our government, That does not strike you as a problem?

Imagine a Judge presiding over your case against say, another driver in a car accident. Oh but the other family funnels money into the Judge's pockets and has private sessions with him whenever they want. That would be OK with you?

 

[Tom]

The flaw in your argument is you say Israel is "over-represented" in the US government, which is just your opinion, and so can't be the foundation for the analogy you present.

I can only speak for one American, I don't see Israel as an obstacle to peace. If there are Arabs who want peace, like Sadat in Egypt, the USA is very happy to support them too. I believe if you check into it you'll find that the two largest recipients of US aid are Israel, and Egypt.

 

[Moonbeam]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to move Israel to the United States, to say the Nevada desert? We could move say the top one foot of land too so it would still be the same Holy Land.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Tom
The flaw in your argument is you say Israel is "over-represented" in the US government, which is just your opinion, and so can't be the foundation for the analogy you present.

I can only speak for one American, I don't see Israel as an obstacle to peace. If there are Arabs who want peace, like Sadat in Egypt, the USA is very happy to support them too. I believe if you check into it you'll find that the two largest recipients of US aid are Israel, and Egypt.

It's not an opinion, it's an observation. Unless ypu care to show me pro-Arab lobbies in our country which equal or surpass the size and financial power of the pro-Israeli ones?

And to be technical Israel receives far more per-captia funding than Egypt which has a population and area many times greater than Israel's. It is only close when you look at the raw total which doesn't say much.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Tom
The flaw in your argument is you say Israel is "over-represented" in the US government, which is just your opinion, and so can't be the foundation for the analogy you present.

I can only speak for one American, I don't see Israel as an obstacle to peace. If there are Arabs who want peace, like Sadat in Egypt, the USA is very happy to support them too. I believe if you check into it you'll find that the two largest recipients of US aid are Israel, and Egypt.

It's not an opinion, it's an observation. Unless ypu care to show me pro-Arab lobbies in our country which equal or surpass the size and financial power of the pro-Israeli ones?

And to be technical Israel receives far more per-captia funding than Egypt which has a population and area many times greater than Israel's. It is only close when you look at the raw total which doesn't say much.

The size of a lobby, or their effectiveness doesn't determine "over-representation". A lobby with a lot of influence may represent the view of a larger group of people while a group with a less popular view may have less influence.

That is why your "observation" is just an opinion. If you said that Israel has a lot of supporters in US government, that would be a fact. But you are saying there are too many supporters, which is just your opinion.

You may think Hezbollah should have more supporters in US government, I personally am glad they don't have much.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Trente
You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

Heh, I am sorry but I don't think the West stands for killing women and children and making millions homeless for something those civilians have absolutely no control over.

You warmongers who sees this world in black and white along with those extremist are the ones that bring us all these violence around the world today. Instead of trying to solve problems, you believe brute force is everything. Instead of solving problems in civilized ways, you escalate problems by making more and more people your enemy. You probably believe Bush too when he says the extremist are after our freedom....haha.

Anyway, there is a reason why educated and intelligent people around the world mock Bush and your kind. But if you are too dumb to see that, guess it's probably too hard for you to comprehend too that you people are the ones leading human race down the path of destruction, not the other way around.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Tom
The flaw in your argument is you say Israel is "over-represented" in the US government, which is just your opinion, and so can't be the foundation for the analogy you present.

I can only speak for one American, I don't see Israel as an obstacle to peace. If there are Arabs who want peace, like Sadat in Egypt, the USA is very happy to support them too. I believe if you check into it you'll find that the two largest recipients of US aid are Israel, and Egypt.

It's not an opinion, it's an observation. Unless ypu care to show me pro-Arab lobbies in our country which equal or surpass the size and financial power of the pro-Israeli ones?

And to be technical Israel receives far more per-captia funding than Egypt which has a population and area many times greater than Israel's. It is only close when you look at the raw total which doesn't say much.

The size of a lobby, or their effectiveness doesn't determine "over-representation". A lobby with a lot of influence may represent the view of a larger group of people while a group with a less popular view may have less influence.

That is why your "observation" is just an opinion. If you said that Israel has a lot of supporters in US government, that would be a fact. But you are saying there are too many supporters, which is just your opinion.

You may think Hezbollah should have more supporters in US government, I personally am glad they don't have much.

Of course it is, how can you even argue that with a straight face? The more money you funnel into politicians pockets while instilling your views the more represenation you have.

And your last statement is absurd and reveals alot about yourself. I've never mentioned Hezbollah here and now you are trying to derail this discussion by putting words in my mouth.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Tom
The flaw in your argument is you say Israel is "over-represented" in the US government, which is just your opinion, and so can't be the foundation for the analogy you present.

I can only speak for one American, I don't see Israel as an obstacle to peace. If there are Arabs who want peace, like Sadat in Egypt, the USA is very happy to support them too. I believe if you check into it you'll find that the two largest recipients of US aid are Israel, and Egypt.

It's not an opinion, it's an observation. Unless ypu care to show me pro-Arab lobbies in our country which equal or surpass the size and financial power of the pro-Israeli ones?

And to be technical Israel receives far more per-captia funding than Egypt which has a population and area many times greater than Israel's. It is only close when you look at the raw total which doesn't say much.

The size of a lobby, or their effectiveness doesn't determine "over-representation". A lobby with a lot of influence may represent the view of a larger group of people while a group with a less popular view may have less influence.

That is why your "observation" is just an opinion. If you said that Israel has a lot of supporters in US government, that would be a fact. But you are saying there are too many supporters, which is just your opinion.

You may think Hezbollah should have more supporters in US government, I personally am glad they don't have much.

Of course it is, how can you even argue that with a straight face? The more money you funnel into politicians pockets while instilling your views the more represenation you have.

And your last statement is absurd and reveals alot about yourself. I've never mentioned Hezbollah here and now you are trying to derail this discussion by putting words in my mouth.

Can you read ? I already said that if you had said Israel has a lot of influence, that would be a fact.

But that is different than saying they have too much influence, which is an opinion.

And you brought up "under-representation" of Arab viewpoints.. what specific Arab viewpoint is it you think is underrepresented, if it isn't the viewpoint of Hezzbollah or their ilk ?

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: firewall

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
N/M

N/M = Never Mind.

Edited and removed the original text for what ever reason.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Tom


Can you read ? I already said that if you had said Israel has a lot of influence, that would be a fact.

But that is different than saying they have too much influence, which is an opinion.

And you brought up "under-representation" of Arab viewpoints.. what specific Arab viewpoint is it you think is underrepresented, if it isn't the viewpoint of Hezzbollah or their ilk ?

Hmm, so in your mind- the Arab position and the Hezbollah position are all one in the same? Arabs are basically all just "terrorists"?