Pro-Israel pressure strong in US

[Todd33]

I think most of you are getting far OT. The point of the article is simple. If a conflict breaks out like the current one, it would be nice if the US and other respected (lol) countries were unbiased mediators. We are about as unbiased as Iran is. We will never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is fighting Israel, no matter what circumstances. We are a pro-Israel country. We cannot be expected to offer any UN resolution that does not read like Israel wrote it. It will fall to other countries who do not have lobbyist pressure, arms sales, etc. that bias there view of one side or another.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Tom


Can you read ? I already said that if you had said Israel has a lot of influence, that would be a fact.

But that is different than saying they have too much influence, which is an opinion.

And you brought up "under-representation" of Arab viewpoints.. what specific Arab viewpoint is it you think is underrepresented, if it isn't the viewpoint of Hezzbollah or their ilk ?

Hmm, so in your mind- the Arab position and the Hezbollah position are all one in the same? Arabs are basically all just "terrorists"?

Not at all. I don't have an issue with "under-representation" of Arab viewpoints in US politics, that's somebody else's assertion.

As far as I know, the only "Arab" viewpoint that isn't represented in American politics, is the viewpoint of some Arabs that Israel, and the Western way of life, should be destroyed.

That doesn't mean I think that is the view of most Arabs, or Arab/Muslim countries. But it is the only so-called viewpoint that I know of that is underrepesented.

Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, all have relationships with US politics.

Syria, Iran, Hamas-led Palestinians, Hezbollah, not so much. Apparently somebody, not me, thinks these groups/countries should have more influence in american politics.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Tom


Can you read ? I already said that if you had said Israel has a lot of influence, that would be a fact.

But that is different than saying they have too much influence, which is an opinion.

And you brought up "under-representation" of Arab viewpoints.. what specific Arab viewpoint is it you think is underrepresented, if it isn't the viewpoint of Hezzbollah or their ilk ?

Hmm, so in your mind- the Arab position and the Hezbollah position are all one in the same? Arabs are basically all just "terrorists"?

I'd just like to mention that in other debates around here there was a very strong connection made between the Hizbullah and the Arab world, usually by those with Arab roots. They said that the actions of Israel uproot the entire Arab world, so I guess such connection exists.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Todd33
I think most of you are getting far OT. The point of the article is simple. If a conflict breaks out like the current one, it would be nice if the US and other respected (lol) countries were unbiased mediators. We are about as unbiased as Iran is. We will never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is fighting Israel, no matter what circumstances. We are a pro-Israel country. We cannot be expected to offer any UN resolution that does not read like Israel wrote it. It will fall to other countries who do not have lobbyist pressure, arms sales, etc. that bias there view of one side or another.

Why should the US be unbiased? There are two sides to this conflict, only one resembles what the US, or any other Western country, represents.
Why shouldn't the US be biased in their favor? You can't look at the Arabs, ALL controlled by dictatoric regimes, and Israel as equals.

Just like the US wouldn't look at China and the UK as equals. What's your point?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

Israel is "progressively Democratic" in the same way that the US was in the early 18th century... when a slave was counted as being 3/5 of a human and didn't have the right to vote.

But all Israelis have rights to vote, as well as any other right. There are some practical differences, but they are no more or less than in other places. For example, most of Israeli Arabs don't serve in the army, despite it being required by law. A case of a country adjusting itself to its minorities.

Anyway, haven't the US politics always been based on lobbies? Oil industry, car industry, media industry, and yes, Jewish lobbies too. What's the difference?

BBC don't like it as they are mostly biased against Israel, but they could have just as well made an article about the MPAA passing draconian laws. And how much electorcal power does MPAA represent?

BBC is not biased against Israel, stop trying to play the victim card

The corporate lobbies you speak of are bad too, but they have little effect on our foreign policy. They primarily affect domestic policy. The trouble with the pro-Israel lobbies is here we are as a veto power UN member pretending to be a broker for peace in the Middle East between Arabs and Israel - but our loyalties are heavily swayed towards Israel because of their over-representation in our government, That does not strike you as a problem?

Imagine a Judge presiding over your case against say, another driver in a car accident. Oh but the other family funnels money into the Judge's pockets and has private sessions with him whenever they want. That would be OK with you?

Of course it doesn't seem as a problem to me, but I'm Israeli. To an Arab, it would. US isn't Switzerland, it takes a stance, that of the free world. It's interest are more countries like Israel and less countries like Egypt. In addition, Israel is an ally, does not host terrorists and has very strong industrial relationships with the US.
Tell me then, how and WHY should the US be unbiased?

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: StepUp

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Why shouldn't the US support the only progressively Democratic country in the entire Middle East?

What about a country like Turkey? This isn't meant to be sarcastic, just a youngin' trying to understand how one democracy has worked in this region while so many others continue to be dictatorships. Anyone that can explain feel free to chime in.

Turkey is an exception no doubt.
Its Govt is secular that is a good start.

I would often try to talk about Iraq with a turkish fellow I know. And he would just shake his head and say democracy won't work in Iraq. they are all crazy.
I would try to argue that turkey has several large diverse ethnic groups also. My thought was You guys in Turkey made it work why can't it work there?
He would just shake his head and say you don't understand.
(doesn't mean I won't keep trying to )

I also would ask if he had traveled around to some of the other countries neighboring Turkey.
He would say," No, all the countries that border Turkey hate us."
(Which is why I don't understand why the EU doesn't embrace Turkey??)

another interesting fact he told me was that womens rights were important in Turkey. Did you know Turkish women have had the right to vote since 1930?

So in short, I think it more the turkish mindset of wanting to be progressive and not stuck in the 7th century is what has made them different. (my 2 cents worth)

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Of course it doesn't seem as a problem to me, but I'm Israeli. To an Arab, it would. US isn't Switzerland, it takes a stance, that of the free world. It's interest are more countries like Israel and less countries like Egypt. In addition, Israel is an ally, does not host terrorists and has very strong industrial relationships with the US.
Tell me then, how and WHY should the US be unbiased?

Wow, what is this contempt with Egypt? Both Egypt and Lebanon are as much "democracies" as the United States are- they are all Republics. So your argument is completely wrong.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33
I think most of you are getting far OT. The point of the article is simple. If a conflict breaks out like the current one, it would be nice if the US and other respected (lol) countries were unbiased mediators. We are about as unbiased as Iran is. We will never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is fighting Israel, no matter what circumstances. We are a pro-Israel country. We cannot be expected to offer any UN resolution that does not read like Israel wrote it. It will fall to other countries who do not have lobbyist pressure, arms sales, etc. that bias there view of one side or another.

Why should the US be unbiased? There are two sides to this conflict, only one resembles what the US, or any other Western country, represents.
Why shouldn't the US be biased in their favor? You can't look at the Arabs, ALL controlled by dictatoric regimes, and Israel as equals.

Just like the US wouldn't look at China and the UK as equals. What's your point?

You prove my point. Why should the Arab world not be anti-American? We do not support them equally or with respect. So if any conflict or contention comes up, we just automatically side with Israel and treat the Arab country like dirt? You wonder why they burn our flags and distrust us? We tout the Lebanese democracy as a example in the region and then when push comes to shove with disregard them and treat them like second class.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Of course it doesn't seem as a problem to me, but I'm Israeli. To an Arab, it would. US isn't Switzerland, it takes a stance, that of the free world. It's interest are more countries like Israel and less countries like Egypt. In addition, Israel is an ally, does not host terrorists and has very strong industrial relationships with the US.
Tell me then, how and WHY should the US be unbiased?

Wow, what is this contempt with Egypt? Both Egypt and Lebanon are as much "democracies" as the United States are- they are all Republics. So your argument is completely wrong.

It's just an example. You can replace "Egypt" with any of the 20-something Arab countries around this part of the world.

Egypt is a dictatorship in disguise. Look at the latest votes. Lebanon was controlled by Syria up until lately, and a third of it is practically controlled by a terrorist group operating on the behalf of Iran. Don't be naive.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Of course it doesn't seem as a problem to me, but I'm Israeli. To an Arab, it would. US isn't Switzerland, it takes a stance, that of the free world. It's interest are more countries like Israel and less countries like Egypt. In addition, Israel is an ally, does not host terrorists and has very strong industrial relationships with the US.
Tell me then, how and WHY should the US be unbiased?

Wow, what is this contempt with Egypt? Both Egypt and Lebanon are as much "democracies" as the United States are- they are all Republics. So your argument is completely wrong.

It's just an example. You can replace "Egypt" with any of the 20-something Arab countries around this part of the world.

Egypt is a dictatorship in disguise. Look at the latest votes. Lebanon was controlled by Syria up until lately, and a third of it is practically controlled by a terrorist group operating on the behalf of Iran. Don't be naive.

Wow, I need to adjust my tinfoil hat's antenna to pick up on those frequencies

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33
I think most of you are getting far OT. The point of the article is simple. If a conflict breaks out like the current one, it would be nice if the US and other respected (lol) countries were unbiased mediators. We are about as unbiased as Iran is. We will never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is fighting Israel, no matter what circumstances. We are a pro-Israel country. We cannot be expected to offer any UN resolution that does not read like Israel wrote it. It will fall to other countries who do not have lobbyist pressure, arms sales, etc. that bias there view of one side or another.

Why should the US be unbiased? There are two sides to this conflict, only one resembles what the US, or any other Western country, represents.
Why shouldn't the US be biased in their favor? You can't look at the Arabs, ALL controlled by dictatoric regimes, and Israel as equals.

Just like the US wouldn't look at China and the UK as equals. What's your point?

You prove my point. Why should the Arab world not be anti-American? We do not support them equally or with respect. So if any conflict or contention comes up, we just automatically side with Israel and treat the Arab country like dirt? You wonder why they burn our flags and distrust us? We tout the Lebanese democracy as a example in the region and then when push comes to shove with disregard them and treat them like second class.

They'll love you even more when you're all Muslims. So what? Is your goal pleasing primitive, cruel countries that are stuck somewhere in medieval times, some of whom actively support terror against the US?

 

[jpeyton]

At least the American people are smartening up, and starting to question our unfailing support of Israel.

Our national policies shouldn't be controlled by a special interest lobby.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: firewall

Since the start of the current violence in Lebanon, the United States' position has remained consistent: it is only sensible to have an Israeli ceasefire when it can be a sustainable one.

In other words, when Hezbollah has been sufficiently weakened to no longer pose a threat.

So firewall, you are against Hizbollah no longer posing a threat? After all, you wouldn't want to be one of those sheep wanting peace now, would you?

It is time we realize it and take action. Unless we do that, we will remain mere sheep.

You said it yourself.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33
I think most of you are getting far OT. The point of the article is simple. If a conflict breaks out like the current one, it would be nice if the US and other respected (lol) countries were unbiased mediators. We are about as unbiased as Iran is. We will never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is fighting Israel, no matter what circumstances. We are a pro-Israel country. We cannot be expected to offer any UN resolution that does not read like Israel wrote it. It will fall to other countries who do not have lobbyist pressure, arms sales, etc. that bias there view of one side or another.

Why should the US be unbiased? There are two sides to this conflict, only one resembles what the US, or any other Western country, represents.
Why shouldn't the US be biased in their favor? You can't look at the Arabs, ALL controlled by dictatoric regimes, and Israel as equals.

Just like the US wouldn't look at China and the UK as equals. What's your point?

You prove my point. Why should the Arab world not be anti-American? We do not support them equally or with respect. So if any conflict or contention comes up, we just automatically side with Israel and treat the Arab country like dirt? You wonder why they burn our flags and distrust us? We tout the Lebanese democracy as a example in the region and then when push comes to shove with disregard them and treat them like second class.

They'll love you even more when you're all Muslims. So what? Is your goal pleasing primitive, cruel countries that are stuck somewhere in medieval times, some of whom actively support terror against the US?

You are just like the people you are against. Close minded, dehumanize the "other" side, extremist viwpoints, etc. These same people lived in harmony with the Jews in the middle ages, it was the Christians who marched through the ME slaughtering Arabs and Jews alike. The problem isn't genetic, it's just learned from generation to generation, just like your views. It will never get better with fighting, only worse.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33
I think most of you are getting far OT. The point of the article is simple. If a conflict breaks out like the current one, it would be nice if the US and other respected (lol) countries were unbiased mediators. We are about as unbiased as Iran is. We will never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is fighting Israel, no matter what circumstances. We are a pro-Israel country. We cannot be expected to offer any UN resolution that does not read like Israel wrote it. It will fall to other countries who do not have lobbyist pressure, arms sales, etc. that bias there view of one side or another.

Why should the US be unbiased? There are two sides to this conflict, only one resembles what the US, or any other Western country, represents.
Why shouldn't the US be biased in their favor? You can't look at the Arabs, ALL controlled by dictatoric regimes, and Israel as equals.

Just like the US wouldn't look at China and the UK as equals. What's your point?

You prove my point. Why should the Arab world not be anti-American? We do not support them equally or with respect. So if any conflict or contention comes up, we just automatically side with Israel and treat the Arab country like dirt? You wonder why they burn our flags and distrust us? We tout the Lebanese democracy as a example in the region and then when push comes to shove with disregard them and treat them like second class.

They'll love you even more when you're all Muslims. So what? Is your goal pleasing primitive, cruel countries that are stuck somewhere in medieval times, some of whom actively support terror against the US?

You are just like the people you are against. Close minded, dehumanize the "other" side, extremist viwpoints, etc. These same people lived in harmony with the Jews in the middle ages, it was the Christians who marched through the ME slaughtering Arabs and Jews alike. The problem isn't genetic, it's just learned from generation to generation, just like your views. It will never get better with fighting, only worse.

I'm not close minded nor do I dehumanize someone.
The Arabs have declared a war on Israel since day one. I never claimed the problem is genetic, the problem is a matter of mentallity and education. But it's not going to be solved by Israel serving out its neck, nor by US siding with the Arabs.

Funny that the sample people here who criticize US for their support of Saudi Arabia call for US to be more pro-Arab when it comes to Israel.

All religions - in fact, all humankind - had dark periods, now it's the turn of Islam. I'm sure that in 300 years they'll live in free societies too, but until then, we should stand up and fight the darkness.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

I'm not close minded nor do I dehumanize someone.
The Arabs have declared a war on Israel since day one. I never claimed the problem is genetic, the problem is a matter of mentallity and education. But it's not going to be solved by Israel serving out its neck, nor by US siding with the Arabs.

Funny that the sample people here who criticize US for their support of Saudi Arabia call for US to be more pro-Arab when it comes to Israel.

All religions - in fact, all humankind - had dark periods, now it's the turn of Islam. I'm sure that in 300 years they'll live in free societies too, but until then, we should stand up and fight the darkness.
[/quote]

This is 100% better discussion than "blow them back to the stone ages". We can agree that they need education. I never said we should be anti-Israel, just not so blatantly biased when it comes to two sided conflicts like the current one. Lebanon did not declare war - this is not so black and white. When it comes to negotiations and the UN the US should try to be fair, unless we want to drum up more distrust and hate by all the countries who are watching.

We sure dump a lot of money into Israel, how much do we spend as an investment to build up frail democracies like Lebanon? We can see how force works out (Iraq), but remember we did not win the cold war with bombs and tanks, we won with blue jeans and Coke. We need marginalized Arab countries to be included in world affairs, not just regional conflicts. If they had strong economies, low unemployment, houses, cars, AC, food, etc. they would be far less likely to strap bombs to their chests.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Trente
You idiots, Israel is fighting for the west in the name of what the west stands for. Instead of supportig it you leftists try to hold it back. The world hasn't changed one bit. WW2 ended 61 years ago which is practically last week when considering the development of the human race. The dark forces of pure evil are threatening the wellbeing of the west, again. If Israel goes down you can bet your lousy liberal ass that you'd be next. If Israel doesn't come out as a clear victor in this conflict, rest assured this will have a great impact on global terrorism for the benefit of the enemy. Even your president who you mock so much understands this simple and obvious concept. You may countinue to laugh and mock him and others alike, but we'll see who gets to laugh last and with your way of thinking leading us to a devastating future, it's the enemy who would get to do so.

Go back and hide under the bed

:roll:

:thumbsup:

Israel is just another country. You are supporting Bush's stance on Israel? Yeah, I can see the similarities between them as the basis for his support. Israel going down will be a great achievement in this war on terror (in a tit-for-tat reply to your statement). Terrorist recruiting, heck their creation itself, will be severely throttled. They will have no reason for their actions in that region of the world. If Israel can't co-exist, it doesn't deserves to exist. Israel is/exists in the Arab region, not the other way around.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Tom
I believe if you check into it you'll find that the two largest recipients of US aid are Israel, and Egypt.

As I have said before, considering that Egypt gets aid for recognizing Israel, this aid is actually indirect aid to Israel. Hence, the ultimate beneficiary is Israel in either case.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: daniel49
another interesting fact he told me was that womens rights were important in Turkey. Did you know Turkish women have had the right to vote since 1930?

How are women rights important in Turkey? They are denying education to women on the basis of them wearing a scarf. Is this a show of freedom? We, in the US, have more freedom for women than Turkey.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
So firewall, you are against Hizbollah no longer posing a threat? After all, you wouldn't want to be one of those sheep wanting peace now, would you?

Hizbollah poses a threat but not as severe as Israel touts it to be. A unilateral ceasefire isn't beneficial nor fair where Israel shall keep bombing the Lebanese people. If I am hypothetically in the middle of a fight with someone (started by the other person for any reason), if the cops stop me but allow the other person to keep attacking me, I won't be too pleased and would resist the cops and try to counter-attack the other person. Only if the cops stop both of us, will I fully cooperate.

It is time we realize it and take action against these lobbies. Unless we do that, we will remain mere sheep.

You said it yourself.

Indeed I did.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: firewall
Israel is just another country. You are supporting Bush's stance on Israel? Yeah, I can see the similarities between them as the basis for his support. Israel going down will be a great achievement in this war on terror (in a tit-for-tat reply to your statement). Terrorist recruiting, heck their creation itself, will be severely throttled. They will have no reason for their actions in that region of the world. If Israel can't co-exist, it doesn't deserves to exist. Israel is/exists in the Arab region, not the other way around.

Here's a wake up call: It's not for the Arabs to decide whether Israel can exist or not.
The one who deserves to exist is the one left standing in a fight, and so far, Israel withstood its share of Arab aggression unharmed.

Israel isn't going anywhere, and it's for the better as we're all concerned.
The Jewish people will fight until the last nuke and not be slaughtered again, like it or not.

I'm sure that without Israel, there would be less tension, but that holds true to the US as well.

As I have said before, considering that Egypt gets aid for recognizing Israel, this aid is actually indirect aid to Israel. Hence, the ultimate beneficiary is Israel in either case.

Weird logic. With no US support, Egypt could not have armed itself with F16's and Apaches. This support is a very bad deal for Israel.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

I'm not close minded nor do I dehumanize someone.
The Arabs have declared a war on Israel since day one. I never claimed the problem is genetic, the problem is a matter of mentallity and education. But it's not going to be solved by Israel serving out its neck, nor by US siding with the Arabs.

Funny that the sample people here who criticize US for their support of Saudi Arabia call for US to be more pro-Arab when it comes to Israel.

All religions - in fact, all humankind - had dark periods, now it's the turn of Islam. I'm sure that in 300 years they'll live in free societies too, but until then, we should stand up and fight the darkness.

This is 100% better discussion than "blow them back to the stone ages". We can agree that they need education. I never said we should be anti-Israel, just not so blatantly biased when it comes to two sided conflicts like the current one. Lebanon did not declare war - this is not so black and white. When it comes to negotiations and the UN the US should try to be fair, unless we want to drum up more distrust and hate by all the countries who are watching.

We sure dump a lot of money into Israel, how much do we spend as an investment to build up frail democracies like Lebanon? We can see how force works out (Iraq), but remember we did not when the cold war with bombs and tanks, we won with blue jeans and Coke. We need marginalized Arab countries to be included in world affairs, not just regional conflicts. If they had strong economies, low unemployment, houses, cars, AC, food, etc. they would be far less likely to strap bombs to their chests.
[/quote]

It might be the case in Africa, but it's not so obvious with the Arab nations:

1. They stand proud, and leaders that side with the West are considered traitors. Look at Mubarak, who's blamed for being a corrupt bitch of the US.

2. How could you explain what's going on with the European Muslims? They are financially sound, have education and yet turn to terror. The problem is deeper than mere economics.

The process you describe will eventually happen, but only after Islam is made a religion rather than a way of life, the tribal habits are forgotten and most importantly, Arabs want to join the Western world like the Russians did.

 

[Lemon law]

We have to understand that the Israelie lobby has driven the US foreign relations regarding Israel since 1948. And not always improperly so. But at the same time the plight of the Palistinian people has been totally below the radar screen.

Which is exactly the complaint of the arab world---they have always called for a politically neutral US---not the pro-Israelie biased united States that is and has been the reality for 58 years. But the Israelie occupation of Palistinian and arab land is only perpetuated by Israelie military might---and so is the total repression of Palistinians.

But a new dynamic is now changing the calculus in the mid-east---terrorist groups like Hezbollah are now getting more modernistic and effective. With Israelie efforts to exterminate Hezbollah now counterproductive because it only increases Hezbollah support and streagth. At teh same time, US mis-adventures in Iraq are partly now hurt by a lack of a diaglog with neighboring Arab States. Whose hatreds of Israel coloring the issues---and now our less than neutral stance is really hampering our chances of emerging from Iraq in any kind of order.

No one ever accused GWB of being even handed, diplomatic, or with being able to accurately access a crisis and the steps to defuse it. When Hezbollah started pegging Rockets from Southern Lebanon into Israel, any idiot can see its going to get the Israelie interested in making it stop. A smarter man than GWB would have instantly realised that step one was getting in an international force as soon as possible---but meanwhile Israel had a right to occupy and clean out the missle launch sites with the help of later arriving international troops.----------now a month into the crisis---Bush has no agreements---Israel is bogged down but winning---but the missles are still coming. Worse yet ALL OF LEBANON is bombed badly in an orgy of pointless Israelie collective punishment. Which now backfires on Israel---Hezbollah support has increased within and outside of Lebanon, the Israelie army has done far worse than expected, the rape of all of Lebanon has lost Israel popular support, and has now also hurt the US interests regarding Iraq and Iran.

Condi Rice is a neo-cons neo-con with solid credentials----but when she gets snubbed and told butt out bitch by Israel, its a sign Israel is now skating on thin Ice---pair that with the fact many Americans didn't like seeing what Israel did to Lebanon could mean the Israelies will now become totally isolated.

For the first time in 58 years, a shift away from a US too pro-Israelie bias may become a reality. Which could really increase the chances to get a just and lasting Mid-East peace.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

It might be the case in Africa, but it's not so obvious with the Arab nations:

1. They stand proud, and leaders that side with the West are considered traitors. Look at Mubarak, who's blamed for being a corrupt bitch of the US.

2. How could you explain what's going on with the European Muslims? They are financially sound, have education and yet turn to terror. The problem is deeper than mere economics.

The process you describe will eventually happen, but only after Islam is made a religion rather than a way of life, the tribal habits are forgotten and most importantly, Arabs want to join the Western world like the Russians did.

If US and the Western world keep supporting Israel in killing Arab civilians and making millions of Arabs homeless, jobless, how in the world would Arab wanna join the Western world?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
We have to understand that the Israelie lobby has driven the US foreign relations regarding Israel since 1948. And not always improperly so. But at the same time the plight of the Palistinian people has been totally below the radar screen.

Which is exactly the complaint of the arab world---they have always called for a politically neutral US---not the pro-Israelie biased united States that is and has been the reality for 58 years. But the Israelie occupation of Palistinian and arab land is only perpetuated by Israelie military might---and so is the total repression of Palistinians.

But a new dynamic is now changing the calculus in the mid-east---terrorist groups like Hezbollah are now getting more modernistic and effective. With Israelie efforts to exterminate Hezbollah now counterproductive because it only increases Hezbollah support and streagth. At teh same time, US mis-adventures in Iraq are partly now hurt by a lack of a diaglog with neighboring Arab States. Whose hatreds of Israel coloring the issues---and now our less than neutral stance is really hampering our chances of emerging from Iraq in any kind of order.

No one ever accused GWB of being even handed, diplomatic, or with being able to accurately access a crisis and the steps to defuse it. When Hezbollah started pegging Rockets from Southern Lebanon into Israel, any idiot can see its going to get the Israelie interested in making it stop. A smarter man than GWB would have instantly realised that step one was getting in an international force as soon as possible---but meanwhile Israel had a right to occupy and clean out the missle launch sites with the help of later arriving international troops.----------now a month into the crisis---Bush has no agreements---Israel is bogged down but winning---but the missles are still coming. Worse yet ALL OF LEBANON is bombed badly in an orgy of pointless Israelie collective punishment. Which now backfires on Israel---Hezbollah support has increased within and outside of Lebanon, the Israelie army has done far worse than expected, the rape of all of Lebanon has lost Israel popular support, and has now also hurt the US interests regarding Iraq and Iran.

Condi Rice is a neo-cons neo-con with solid credentials----but when she gets snubbed and told butt out bitch by Israel, its a sign Israel is now skating on thin Ice---pair that with the fact many Americans didn't like seeing what Israel did to Lebanon could mean the Israelies will now become totally isolated.

For the first time in 58 years, a shift away from a US too pro-Israelie bias may become a reality. Which could really increase the chances to get a just and lasting Mid-East peace.

First of all, US has only properly supported Israel since '67 or so. Until then, a weapon embargo has been in place, and the relationships weren't exactly warm.

Second, many commentaries I've read suggest that it was in US' interest that Hizbullah is destroyed, as a sign to other extremeist religious groups. If anything, Israel's response to the attacks was too restrained for its own good.