Pro-level HD camcorder with XLR in

keeleysam

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2005
8,131
0
0
I'm in the market for a semi-professional level HD camcorder. I currently shoot with a Canon T2i, but it has two main drawbacks that I need to overcome, the audio is horrible, and you can't shoot more than 12 minutes with the 4GB file size limit.

My requirement on the audio side is that it have two XLR inputs, one which will spend most of its life connected to a Pressmite or PA system, and the other to an on camera mic.

I've been looking at the Panasonic HMC40 and HMC150. The HMC40 needs a $300 box to get XLR in, and the HMC150 costs a bit more than I'd like to spend. $3000 is a lot for the HMC150, so if I could spend a bunch less that would definitely be nice.

Do you guys have any other recommendations?

One question about any of these shooting onto SD cards, do they all suffer from the 4GB file size limit where recording has to be restarted at that point, losing a few seconds of video?
 

alfa147x

Lifer
Jul 14, 2005
30,061
103
106
My advice:
1) wait for Kaido to post
2) get 2nd audio recording device with XLR inputs
3) record on audio recording device + T2i
4) Sync audio tracks using PluralEyes
5) Delete crappy T2i audio track

I don't shoot anything too fancy but that's the way I do it... I actually use a 2nd camera with XLR inputs... Just until our department gets to update
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
I'm in the market for a semi-professional level HD camcorder. I currently shoot with a Canon T2i, but it has two main drawbacks that I need to overcome, the audio is horrible, and you can't shoot more than 12 minutes with the 4GB file size limit.

My requirement on the audio side is that it have two XLR inputs, one which will spend most of its life connected to a Pressmite or PA system, and the other to an on camera mic.

I've been looking at the Panasonic HMC40 and HMC150. The HMC40 needs a $300 box to get XLR in, and the HMC150 costs a bit more than I'd like to spend. $3000 is a lot for the HMC150, so if I could spend a bunch less that would definitely be nice.

Do you guys have any other recommendations?

One question about any of these shooting onto SD cards, do they all suffer from the 4GB file size limit where recording has to be restarted at that point, losing a few seconds of video?


Audio equipment is a function of 2 things:

1. Quality of the recorder
2. Types of hardware, cables, and adapters

The T2i is a great camera, but the audio recorder is not that great (passable but not fantastic) and only has a Minijack input. So let's explore some options...


The T2i can take XLR input with additional hardware. There's a few solutions to this:

1. Minijack to XLR cable: Assuming your mic is self-powered (ex. battery), or else assuming you have a separate phantom power source to run the mic, this is a workable solution. For example, I have a lav mic that has a battery which terminates in an XLR connector. So since it's already powered, it works fine with the Minijack to XLR cable adapter.

The problem you run into here is that the T2i has AGC (Auto Gain Correction). AGC simply means that the camera boosts the volume as it thinks its needed (like in a quiet situation). While this is great for consumers, but not so great when you want a clean signal because (1) YOU don't get to choose the levels and lock them in, and (2) gain introduces noise into the recordering. The end result is that your audio sounds like crap.

On the higher-end models like the Canon 5D Mark II, Canon has updated the firmware to allow the user to disable AGC. This firmware has not yet been released for the T2i, if it will ever be. There's an aftermarket firmware in the works (Magic Latern), but it's not finalized yet. There is a hardware solution around AGC - the AGC bypass trick. Basically, you get a stereo splitter cable and pipe your mic on one channel and an MP3 playing an hour-long 19KHz sine tone (via a cheap MP3 player). The low-end tone essentially kills the AGC function (tricks it into not putting the gain in, which translates into a noisy recording). There's a ton of video tutorials on Youtube if you type in "T2i AGC bypass trick".


2. XLR Adapter with AGC Kill: While there are a lot of XLR to Minijack adapter boxes (ones that provide both left and right channel inputs, as well as phantom power to the mics), what you really want is one that has the AGC bypass trick built-in. Juicedlink makes a couple of models that do this natively:

http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-dn101 ($139; requires a separate amp)

http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-dt454 ($419, all-inclusive)

The added benefit is that you get headphone monitoring of the audio signals, which is something that the T2i does not have (which is annoying because you can't tell if your audio is any good or not).

3. Separate audio recorder: Now, even using adapters and the AGC bypass trick, you're still stuck with the T2i's built-in audio recorder, which really isn't that great. With a separate audio recorder, you don't have to deal with the AGC problem. You can also get recorders that record at a higher level of quality, as well as have XLR inputs built-in.


There's basically 3 ways to sync the audio soundtrack to your video track:

1. Do it manually (eyeball it, vs. the built-in audio track - use something like a clapper to do an audio spike for you to see)

2. Use the PluralEyes audio sync software. This is a $149 plugin for Vegas, Premiere, and Final Cut that does the eyeballing for you - it uses software to match up the sync so that you get better results.

3. Use an output cable to record to the T2i audio input. So the mics are plugged into the recorder, then the recorder is plugged into the T2i using a Minijack cable. This way you get clean, high-quality audio on the recorder, plus a copy of the audio on the T2i. Then, when you to go match up the recordings, it's super easy because it's the same signal. In this case, you could also use Pluraleyes software and get probably perfect results because instead of having the T2i's mic trying to sync with the separate mics/recorder, you're getting the same signal to sync to, so your audio is actually 1:1 instead of "kinda" 1:1, if that makes sense.

Hollywood-type cameras actually use a system called Timecode, which uses a cable to sync the audio to the video tracks so that the software can match them up by numbers easily, rather than waveform. However the T2i doesn't have Timecode, but Pluraleyes is the next best thing.


External recorder options:

Depending on your budget, there are a number of external recording options. Starting from the low end:

1. Zoom H4n: ($300) This has 2 XLR inputs and provides a nice, clean soundtrack.

2. Fostex FR-2LE: ($600) This is similar to the Zoom, but has a better recorder and more features. It is larger though. The Marantz PMD661 is another recorder in the same class/pricerange to look at if you're interested in this one.

3. Tascam HD-P2: ($750) This is what I'd classify as the entry-level professional recording system. If you want super super super clean audio, this is your ticket. It also has Timecode if you ever want to hook it up to a pro camera.

4. Tascam DR-680: ($810) The audio is not as good as the HD-P2's professional-level recording, but it has 4 XLR inputs and 2 1/4" inputs, so you get lots of input channels to record to. If you need multi-channel recording (more than 2 inputs, that is), this is a really good option.


From there, the price only goes up. The next step up is Sound Devices equipment, which is stuff they use in film, television, video games, etc. It really all depends on your budget and your needs. Most people who are on a budget and have a T2i go with a Zoom H4n. It's not professional-level sound, but it is pretty clean for the price, very portable, and has powered XLR inputs.

Having a camera with built-in XLR inputs is convenient, but if you want great sound, I'd highly recommend looking at an external recorder. Even something like the $300 Zoom H4n is a huge step up (no AGC!) and you can just put in a headphone splitter to (1) monitor the audio via headphones, and (2) push the audio to the T2i's Minijack input to get a copy of the sound to sync to later. That makes it pretty easy to manage later. But, it's not quite as simple as a camera with XLR input. So your second option is to use the same setup (ex. Mics to Zoom H4n to Minijack headphone cable to T2i's Minijack input), but then just to keep the audio on the T2i. But then you still have to deal with AGC, haha (unless you use the MP3 player trick, but then you only get one channel of usable audio, which is fine if you only have one mic). I believe on most camcorders, AGC can be disabled or does not exist.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
I'm in the market for a semi-professional level HD camcorder. I currently shoot with a Canon T2i, but it has two main drawbacks that I need to overcome, the audio is horrible, and you can't shoot more than 12 minutes with the 4GB file size limit.

My requirement on the audio side is that it have two XLR inputs, one which will spend most of its life connected to a Pressmite or PA system, and the other to an on camera mic.

I've been looking at the Panasonic HMC40 and HMC150. The HMC40 needs a $300 box to get XLR in, and the HMC150 costs a bit more than I'd like to spend. $3000 is a lot for the HMC150, so if I could spend a bunch less that would definitely be nice.

Do you guys have any other recommendations?

One question about any of these shooting onto SD cards, do they all suffer from the 4GB file size limit where recording has to be restarted at that point, losing a few seconds of video?

Regarding video -

Yes, the 4GB file size limit is a function of the FAT formatting on the memory cards. This gives you about 12 minutes of 1080p on the T2i. On my Canon SX200 point & shoot, I get about 30 minutes of 720p per 4GB clip. Aside from the 4GB limit, the T2i is also prone to overheating since it's using a dSLR video recording sensor, which is not designed to run continuously for video for long periods of time. In short, the T2i doesn't make a great camcorder. It does make a great camera for short films, short clips, and so on, however. So depending on your usage, it may or may not be the right tool for the job. I mostly just shoot short little clips, so it works great for me, but if you need to record things for long periods of time (choir performance, soccer game, etc.) it's not so great.

For the price of a Panasonic HMC40 or HMC150, you might want to look at Canon's line of 1080p consumer camcorders. You could buy 3 for the price of one of the larger Panasonics, which would enable you to get multiple camera angles. Here's a basic overview of the Canon model line: (although this is back from January)

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?...mer-camcorders&p=282809&viewfull=1#post282809

Here's a link to their current product line:

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/camcorders/consumer_camcorders

The HF-series (flagship line) has a 1/2.6" CMOS @ 8.59 megapixels. Basically that means it's a pretty decent sensor. The difference between the models is how much memory is built into the camera. The HF-S200 (dual SD slots, no onboard memory) goes for $750 online and has real zoom, real image stabilization, real autofocus during recording, continuous recording, etc. Image quality is outstanding for a non-dSLR camcorder:

http://www.vimeo.com/13035800

http://www.vimeo.com/14566012

If you mount an inexpensive shotgun mic on each (something like a Rode Videomic), you can get an audio track to sync a separate audio recorder to - multiple camera angles, one recorder, then sync each camera's audio to the recorder's audio using Pluraleyes.

So there's some options. The key question is, of course - what kind of work are you doing with your camera? A single camera with XLR inputs may be the best choice depending on the type of work, like news reporting or weddings.
 
Last edited:

keeleysam

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2005
8,131
0
0
It's going to be shooting press conferences and events from the back of the room. I've tried the consumer level camcorders, but with a lot of zoom required, and their small sensors, it usually just looks terrible. I don't need multiple angles, and I need quick turnaround so I don't have the time to sync audio up. I have a Zoom H2, and did sync audio up once, and it sounded alright, but it took way too long.

I like the T2i's video quality, but it just isn't working for me with the time limit, and the overheating. I can be required to shoot for an hour or more, and timing breaks every 12 minutes just isn't possible.

I'd prefer to have on camera XLR as opposed to adapters as it keeps things from being complicated, and I want to record 2 channels, one being an on camera mic, and one being the PA from the press box. If something happens to the press box, I have a backup, and then I can also get some ambience from the on camera audio, all nice and synced.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
It's going to be shooting press conferences and events from the back of the room. I've tried the consumer level camcorders, but with a lot of zoom required, and their small sensors, it usually just looks terrible. I don't need multiple angles, and I need quick turnaround so I don't have the time to sync audio up. I have a Zoom H2, and did sync audio up once, and it sounded alright, but it took way too long.

I like the T2i's video quality, but it just isn't working for me with the time limit, and the overheating. I can be required to shoot for an hour or more, and timing breaks every 12 minutes just isn't possible.

I'd prefer to have on camera XLR as opposed to adapters as it keeps things from being complicated, and I want to record 2 channels, one being an on camera mic, and one being the PA from the press box. If something happens to the press box, I have a backup, and then I can also get some ambience from the on camera audio, all nice and synced.

Yeah, syncing can be a pain. Even Pluraleyes isn't a perfect solution, although it does help speed up the workflow. As far as on-camera XLR, Juicedlink does make an XLR to Minijack adapter in two flavors - one with phantom power and one without: ($189 and $299, respectively)

http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-cx211

http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-cx231

So if you find a camera you like, but it doesn't have XLR - this is a pretty good solution. The nice thing is, it's designed to be mounted under the camera (hooks onto a tripod), so it's not an impediment for most shooting situations:

http://provideocoalition.com/images/uploads/JuicedLink_DN101_619.gif

And in addition to headphone output, you also get trim knobs on the front, so if you need to quickly adjust the sound, you can do it right from the knobs:

http://www.nagrit.com/catalog/images/juicedlink_cx231_1.jpg

Beachtek makes some similar products:

http://www.beachtek.com/
 

tvdang7

Platinum Member
Jun 4, 2005
2,242
5
81
cant you just hook the camera up to a laptop and record straight to the laptop? or is that pictures only.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
cant you just hook the camera up to a laptop and record straight to the laptop? or is that pictures only.

Photos only, unless you count HDMI. You could get something like a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card, which records HDMI input, but the T2i puts bars & info on the screen, so the output image is useless for anything but viewing to help setup the shot, focus, etc.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
Back to the original title, did you really want to add pro audio to your TSi or get a better video setup? For archiving, post shoot availibility and without major storage expenses, HDV (tape) works well. The Canon XH-A1 is $3k with 2 XLRs and was a sweet spot for prosumer for awhile. The Sony HVR-V1U is comparable. I have never really paid attention to the JVC or Panasonic options.

I have over 200 MiniDV tapes from projects. That is roughly more than 2.6TB as DV or HDV 25Mb/s. I like the options for flash or disk storage, because the transferring is soooo easy. But for archiving, tape wins. If you go tapeless, you still would need a storage solution on the backend. Tape again, or a RAID array. Tape is long term the more reliable solution or plan to have a transfer to a new array at some later date. But a disk array over 10 years has bigger risks. But tape still is slow. It is about time that some tech company creates a tape alternative that is as stable and inexpensive. But then again, we have been saying that about battery tech too.

And now you know why Hollywood uses Clapper boards (and the new ones sync to a Genlock Timecode input)
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
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Back to the original title, did you really want to add pro audio to your TSi or get a better video setup? For archiving, post shoot availibility and without major storage expenses, HDV (tape) works well. The Canon XH-A1 is $3k with 2 XLRs and was a sweet spot for prosumer for awhile. The Sony HVR-V1U is comparable. I have never really paid attention to the JVC or Panasonic options.

I know for me, I'd rather go with a separate audio solution and keep the T2i. But it really depends on what you're shooting. For $3k, you can get a pretty nice audio setup - a tapeless dual-XLR recorder, a production-quality lav mic, and a good boom mic like a Senn MKH 50. But then, T2i's aren't great for continuous shooting, autofocus while filming, etc., so it really depends on what kind of work you plan on doing.

Plus, syncing is just a pain
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
I have over 200 MiniDV tapes from projects. That is roughly more than 2.6TB as DV or HDV 25Mb/s. I like the options for flash or disk storage, because the transferring is soooo easy. But for archiving, tape wins. If you go tapeless, you still would need a storage solution on the backend. Tape again, or a RAID array. Tape is long term the more reliable solution or plan to have a transfer to a new array at some later date. But a disk array over 10 years has bigger risks. But tape still is slow. It is about time that some tech company creates a tape alternative that is as stable and inexpensive. But then again, we have been saying that about battery tech too.

And now you know why Hollywood uses Clapper boards (and the new ones sync to a Genlock Timecode input)

That's the one thing I miss from my tape days (i.e. earlier this year LOL) - dirt simple archiving. One alternative I've looked at is LTO-5, a tape backup system...HP has a nice model with 3TB compressed data per $100 cartridge and a 6Gb/sec SAS connection, but those are a tad pricey for my needs. Especially with 3TB HDD's going for $240 a pop, with no expensive reader system required. But then HDD vs. Tape...oye.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
Plus, syncing is just a pain
I used to do 3 camera multicam of marching band competitions with no genlock. Somewhere in the videos, I could find some place where a flag was at a certain place and use that as a sync mark (used a PD-170 as the audio master attached to a AT835st). That did make my low budget lust for a Zoom H4.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
I used to do 3 camera multicam of marching band competitions with no genlock. Somewhere in the videos, I could find some place where a flag was at a certain place and use that as a sync mark (used a PD-170 as the audio master attached to a AT835st). That did make my low budget lust for a Zoom H4.



You're my hero :biggrin:
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0


You're my hero :biggrin:
With Avid Liquid, you could put a marker in each video source in the timeline, then drag it by the marker to sync them. Then do Multicam based on First marker. Media Composer does so much more, but I sure wish it did markers the same way. It was soooo easy. But it was a bear finding the same flag in SD on the the .5 wide angle doing the field view.

Oh, keeleysam. Don't forget the rule, 1 frame per 32 ft. You need to remember that syncing audio shot over a distance. At least I think that is what it was. The math seems right.
 
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