Problem: Not Enough Blacks Pass Police Exam Solution: Lower Standards

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
Better be careful in Dayton, can't rely on retard cops. IMO this is nuts. As a black person this really ticks me off. Makes us all look bad.

DAYTON -- The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits.

It's a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.



http://abc.daytonsnewssource.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wkef_vid_6103.shtml
 
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MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,865
10
0
Just like New Haven.

Think we'll be hearing about abusive cops doing stupid things in Dayton a few years from now?
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
They have been doing this in our public school systems for decades. Look how well that has turned out.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,001
113
106
Unless they can prove the test was biased in some way, then the test should be kept. It saddens me to hear this from the DOJ.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
How this nonsense is actually starting to hurt minorities, the city even offered free classes to all those that wanted to pass the test.

This is from the Village Voice.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-12-15/news/fdny-extrance-exam-non-white-hiring/
Nafis Sabir is an African-American who wants to be a New York City firefighter. When he sat for the city’s most recent exam in January 2007, known as test “6019,” he scored in the top handful out of nearly 22,000 candidates.
“I was 29 at the time,” the former Marine says, “and the test wasn’t that hard. You study for it, and it takes some discipline. But I already had a lot of life experience to do that. Maybe some younger guys don’t.”
Sabir says the exam answers were often comically obvious. “They might ask, ‘Someone comes in the firehouse and looks at you with a crazy look. You can speak to him about it, talk to a supervisor, or punch him in the face. Which one should you not do?’ ” He laughs joylessly. If the test was easy, subsequent events have been difficult.
Although Sabir’s results should have been good enough to get him in, for the past three years, he and hundreds of others have been stuck in a strange kind of limbo. Initially, their start date at the Fire Academy was delayed by budget shortfalls. Then, he and his classmates learned that the test they aced was found to be racist by the federal court, and they wouldn’t be allowed to take positions in the department until a better test could be devised, or the city could come up with some other way to hire new firefighters.
In other words, Sabir, a black man, can’t get a job because he passed a test the court believes was intended to make him fail because of his race.
“First, they said they couldn’t hire us because of money. Then they said they couldn’t because minorities didn’t score well. I don’t get it,” says David Cargin, another African-American man in the same position.

Cargin had done well on the test in part, he says, because he, like others, had taken advantage of the preparation that was offered to applicants. “The city offered free classes on how to study for the test,” he says. He alternated between the classes and the gym—where the city provided free training for a physical test—before taking the written exam.
Even though he doesn’t come from a firefighting family, Cargin, 29, says he didn’t consider that a problem. “Does having a parent on the job [as a firefighter] give you an advantage? Yeah. Is it an unreasonable advantage? No,” he says.
Thirty-two-year-old Dion Hines is another black member of the class who tested high but is going nowhere. He takes issue with the court’s conclusion that the entrance exam is unfair to African-Americans or anyone else. “They blatantly say that the test is the problem. It’s not rocket science. It doesn’t require a higher degree of education,” he says. “There are hypothetical situations, and they give you information, and you have to regurgitate that information. You don’t need to already be a firefighter to understand it.”
But the federal courts have repeatedly blamed entrance examinations as part of the FDNY’s inability to hire more minorities. In 1971, a group of police officers successfully sued the city over discriminatory hiring (Guardians Association of New York City v. the Civil Service Commission) under the federal Civil Rights Act. Two years later, a group of black firefighters, the New York Vulcan Society, was able to win a similar case, which forced the city to adopt hiring quotas. Within a couple of years, however, the city abandoned that approach before any progress could be made.
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,365
475
126
How this nonsense is actually starting to hurt minorities, the city even offered free classes to all those that wanted to pass the test.

This is from the Village Voice.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-12-15/news/fdny-extrance-exam-non-white-hiring/

Sabir says the exam answers were often comically obvious. “They might ask, ‘Someone comes in the firehouse and looks at you with a crazy look. You can speak to him about it, talk to a supervisor, or punch him in the face. Which one should you not do?’ ” He laughs joylessly. If the test was easy, subsequent events have been difficult.

The answer is "speak to him about it right"?

Sheeit, why even test them?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Lots of them do that. The civil service test for the police was one of the exceptions.

They don't like calling it reverse discrimination, the politically correct term is race-normed adjustments.

Back in the '70s Philadelphia decided that it wanted more blacks in the fire department. They didn't make the test easier, but they gave points to blacks then curved the test upwards. A black with a score of 80 (and this isn't 80% correct, but a skewed result) would get in while a white with a perfect score couldn't. The math worked out so a white guy would need a score of 111 to beat him, and there were no scores above 100.

But they didn't dumb down the test
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
The reporters get an F.

Key fact not addressed.. Is this test administered pre or post training ?
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
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If Dayton is really in a jam, and by law have to hire X minorities, why not provide extra class room time for all races who want it, and offer the SAME exam again? This just seems racist in the sense that they are saying "well, no way they will pass the exam, so the ONLY solution is to lower the minimum excepted exam score"

I still think that as long policies like this exist, there will always be racism.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,061
720
126
The California Department of Forestry did it in the 90s for firefighters.

My brother was on a crew. He carried the hoses and a female member of the crew carried the hose pack. It has the fittings and nozzles needed to put the hoses together.

He humped up a steep hill and began laying out the hoses. He turned to the female and asked for the fittings. She said they were down in the truck. When he asked her why she didn't bring them she said that they were too heavy.

Yah diversity. Yah lowering standards.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
They've been doing this crap for decades in various places.

It's pretty stupid really. Even minorities would supposedly want the best qualified people to show up when their lives and property were in danger. Maybe they should put all of the least able in the same firehouse in a minority neighborhood (refer to them as the "minor league firefighters"?) and see if they like it.

Some have been just as bad on school tests. Story problem: Joe and his dad go out on a lake and go fishing. Joe hooks 6 fish, but 2 get away. Joe's dad hooks 11 fish, but 3 get away. How many fish did they bring home? Argument that it is racially discriminatory: minority student might not have a dad at home, student likely has never been on a boat, student has probably never been fishing, ergo, the problem is unfair because it is out of the realm of the student's experience and biased toward a white kid with a dad who might have gone fishing with him.

One of my local school districts faced this kind of argument years ago, and caved in.

Soon after, they responded to complaints that too many minority students were being disciplined. Their solution was to produce a uniform discipline procedure; basically a 2 column list with infractions in one column, penalties in the other, all infractions receiving the same penalty every time. Next complaint? Infractions did not take into account "Black Culture". Crazy! IMHO it meant that they were saying that their kids could not be expected to control themselves in public!
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
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Lots of them do that. The civil service test for the police was one of the exceptions.

They don't like calling it reverse discrimination, the politically correct term is race-normed adjustments.


Yes I get you think "a lot of them do that." but I am asking for examples since you seem to know about them.
 

bryanl

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2006
1,157
8
81
The quality of discourse here is much worse than that in the other forums of Anandtech, yet most of the participants are the same.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Lower standard = bad.

Proof? Just look at New Orleans PD, also a few years ago, same thing happened at Dallas PD.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
Why do they think black people cannot pass the test, and thus need to lower the standard? Does this strike anyone else as racist? What am I missing here?
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
There is a whole lot missing out this article. For one it says that 258 more people passed the test, but they don't tell you how many were minority or black specifically. Is the test for being hired as a recruit or apart of the actual training? If its apart of the actual training then it is quite possibly wrong to graduate a person who does well just on the test over another person who may be much field prepared. Being a cop goes way beyond a test in a classroom, I hope most here understand that. The head of the NAACP local chapter doesn't like that the standards were lowered, so that does send a red flag.

But police departments and especially fire departments have historically had accusations of racism. Some false, but many true. Take the NJ state police case a few years back. And that discrimination ran for decades. If the tests were being solely used as grounds for hiring, but completely ignoring all other factors, maybe thats why. The scenarios of two candidates where a sole test score is or can be negated are quite numerous. Everyone who passes a bar exam, even if they ace it, is not necessarily qualified to be a lawyer. Not every doctor who passes his medical exams is fit to practice medicine or do surgery. I think more info is needed about where the test comes into play in the hiring process.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
How come nobody has commented on the fact that the NAACP, the organization the right wing thinks is racist, is against lowering the standards so more blacks pass?
 
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