Project Management (Draw some lines)

[steppinthrax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

Funny, similar to lots of experiences I've had gathering req and dealing with dumbasses who change requirements and have very little technical ability. It's funny how the PM and management try to put on a good face.

Very corporate and true example.

 

[Bob the Coder]

Project Managers are the Congressmen of the private sector.

 

[z1ggy]

Can anybody who has experience in PM actually describe what they do? I'm considering applying to some jobs for PM positions, but I wouldn't actually say that's what I do now.

 

[cbrunny]

http://www.pmi.org/Certification/Project-Management-Professional-PMP.aspx

PM is a discipline in itself. Apparently.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Can anybody who has experience in PM actually describe what they do? I'm considering applying to some jobs for PM positions, but I wouldn't actually say that's what I do now.

Well, first you have to define a "project." (I generally qualify it as "anything I need a budget for, or that I need more than one person to implement.")

Then you have to define "management." (I generally qualify it as "is there single a person who is responsible for directing the people who are working on this cluster****?)

If both of those things are true, then the poor bastard in the second part is, whether they know it or not, the project manager. So, yeah, if you've been around for a while, you can probably come up with examples of your "project management" experience, even if you weren't technically a manager.

Us quiet, self-directed IT types don't like to admit it, since we're all ubermensches who hate being managed almost as much as we hate people, but a decent PM is a pretty good person to have around.

Unfortunately, a scary % of PMs in tech are poor-to-middling former engineers with out of date skills and credentials who got Peter Principle'd so their coworkers wouldn't have to deal with them. Which is why so many projects fail - their point person is an overpaid web surfer with delusions of charisma.

 

[edro]

I used to talk down about PMs, but after working with a few good ones, they are extremely valuable.

I have seen huge time and cost savings when they were involved.
Just by simply encouraging communication and checking up on people, months were saved.

In my experience, their main role is to manage the project.
They own the timeline and run the weekly meetings. They check up and hold accountable engineering, marketing, sales, etc. to make sure they all hit their timelines. Even if the timeline is a rough estimate and you are late, at least you are held accountable and try your hardest to meet the new date.

 

[steppinthrax]

Can anybody who has experience in PM actually describe what they do? I'm considering applying to some jobs for PM positions, but I wouldn't actually say that's what I do now.

LOL,

From a technical perspective (Software Eng.). They either act as a go-between for the non-tech and developers. Their are in charge of the project, managing resources/timelines and customer expectations of the project. Their goal is to finish the project within the allotted time limit and budget.

Now in the real world they are glorified secretaries.

You generally need a PMP or something cert like that. Or several years of exp.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Can anybody who has experience in PM actually describe what they do? I'm considering applying to some jobs for PM positions, but I wouldn't actually say that's what I do now.

It varies from company to company, but here is a simplified breakdown of what a PM is supposed to do at most companies:

1. Work with the client to understand project requirements, deliverables, and assess risks to the project.
2. Divide the project into blocks or phases and work with technical resources to decompose each block or phase into work deliverables (ie, discrete tasks), arriving at something called a Work Breakdown Structure.
3. Work with management to obtain resources to work on the projects and assign each task on the WBS to one or more resources.
4. Monitor the progress of the project while identifying additional risks to deadlines, milestones, and to notify stakeholders and adjust accordingly.
5. Facilitate communication amongst the team and also to provide regular project updates to stakeholders.

It isn't hard work to be honest, but most PMs have no actual authority so it can be very frustrating because they have to beg for resources from other teams. They really are overpaid secretaries BUT if you have one that had an actual technical background, they can be useful and very good to run interference with the customer.

 

[z1ggy]

Well, first you have to define a "project." (I generally qualify it as "anything I need a budget for, or that I need more than one person to implement.")

Then you have to define "management." (I generally qualify it as "is there single a person who is responsible for directing the people who are working on this cluster****?)

If both of those things are true, then the poor bastard in the second part is, whether they know it or not, the project manager. So, yeah, if you've been around for a while, you can probably come up with examples of your "project management" experience, even if you weren't technically a manager.

Us quiet, self-directed IT types don't like to admit it, since we're all ubermensches who hate being managed almost as much as we hate people, but a decent PM is a pretty good person to have around.

Unfortunately, a scary % of PMs in tech are poor-to-middling former engineers with out of date skills and credentials who got Peter Principle'd so their coworkers wouldn't have to deal with them. Which is why so many projects fail - their point person is an overpaid web surfer with delusions of charisma.

So if an engineer wanted to do PM, what skills should they have or be able to demonstrate, as opposed to all the shitty ones you've apparently seen or dealt with?

 

[z1ggy]

It varies from company to company, but here is a simplified breakdown of what a PM is supposed to do at most companies:

1. Work with the client to understand project requirements, deliverables, and assess risks to the project.
2. Divide the project into blocks or phases and work with technical resources to decompose each block or phase into work deliverables (ie, discrete tasks), arriving at something called a Work Breakdown Structure.
3. Work with management to obtain resources to work on the projects and assign each task on the WBS to one or more resources.
4. Monitor the progress of the project while identifying additional risks to deadlines, milestones, and to notify stakeholders and adjust accordingly.
5. Facilitate communication amongst the team and also to provide regular project updates to stakeholders.

It isn't hard work to be honest, but most PMs have no actual authority so it can be very frustrating because they have to beg for resources from other teams. They really are overpaid secretaries BUT if you have one that had an actual technical background, they can be useful and very good to run interference with the customer.

That's almost exactly what I do here. Except....I have an engineering degree. And, to top it off, our project from cradle to grave is... insanely long, so a lot of those steps happen over a very long period of time. Well, for example, defining a scope of work, deliverables, etc may only take a few months, but to supply all deliverables may take 4-5 years (and that's just up to the start of manufacturing the product).

 

[steppinthrax]

So if an engineer wanted to do PM, what skills should they have or be able to demonstrate, as opposed to all the shitty ones you've apparently seen or dealt with?

For the beg they need a PMP, most places won't even touch you unless you have at least that. There is a smaller version CAPSM or something like that.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

That's almost exactly what I do here. Except....I have an engineering degree. And, to top it off, our project from cradle to grave is... insanely long, so a lot of those steps happen over a very long period of time. Well, for example, defining a scope of work, deliverables, etc may only take a few months, but to supply all deliverables may take 4-5 years.

Yeah, I have all of the requirements to sit for the PMP but have never done it. Like you, I have an engineering degree but I work in IT and have managed global projects. I don't respect the position to be honest and that's what has held me back from finishing the PMP and moving into PM full time. I have to remind myself that what I think about PM roles in general isn't relevant; it is what hiring managers think that is important.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

For the beg they need a PMP, most places won't even touch you unless you have at least that. There is a smaller version CAPSM or something like that.

I'll also mention -- filling out the application for the PMP seems to be much, much harder and more work than the actual exam.

 

[z1ggy]

Yeah, I have all of the requirements to sit for the PMP but have never done it. Like you, I have an engineering degree but I work in IT and have managed global projects. I don't respect the position to be honest and that's what has held me back from finishing the PMP and moving into PM full time. I have to remind myself that what I think about PM roles in general isn't relevant; it is what hiring managers think that is important.

Exactly. What I'm worried about is the fact that my company is mainly an assembly type place, and we sub out almost all the work. Meaning, we build a final product out of all the products we may everybody else to make. We define the requirements, write the specs, write the SOW and contracts, but pay them to design everything. We inspect all deliverables to ensure requirements are met... but as the "inspector" you don't need those design skills per se... You only need to be able to tell if a design meets what it said it should meet. My issue is, because I've been here now for 5yrs, and haven't actually designed products (only inspected them really..) that I'd be useless if I worked for a company that was that sub contractor.

So, I'm kind of more of a PM here more than an engineer. I need engineering knowledge, but I don't sit here at a computer with software designing stuff. I'm also not on the shop floor assembling anything either.

I'll also mention -- filling out the application for the PMP seems to be much, much harder and more work than the actual exam.

Please explain more. Is getting a cert. via the PMP like having an MBA if you wished to get into business?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

So if an engineer wanted to do PM, what skills should they have or be able to demonstrate, as opposed to all the shitty ones you've apparently seen or dealt with?

Hah. Nah, most of the ones I've dealt with were fine. But the spectacular failures stick in your mind.

If I had to sum it? Communication.

Communication and follow-through. Always touch base a couple days later, always make sure everybody knows everything they need to know, and who to contact to find out what they don't know. Facilitate those conversations.

Meetings should stick to schedule and stay on topic, and not be too frequent. If a compile takes 12 hours, daily meetings are pointless.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Please explain more. Is getting a cert. via the PMP like having an MBA if you wished to get into business?

I think the PMP cert has higher bang for the buck than an MBA assuming you meet the requirements to sit for it. The application process is brutal -- IIRC, you have to document 4500 hours of project experience in EXCRUCIATING detail. I started filling out the app a couple of years ago and calculated that when I was done, it would be 120 pages in length due to all the descriptions you have to give. I have seriously thought about hiring someone who has experience with the app to help me complete it.

I would never do an MBA unless someone else paid for it or I went the Western Governors route. Too risky going into debt for that degree right now, IMO.

 

[steppinthrax]

I'll also mention -- filling out the application for the PMP seems to be much, much harder and more work than the actual exam.

Yeah you have to have so many hundred hours of PM work as well as a college degree. There is a separate rule for HS degree. You have to put all that in there. You may be audited as well. I think you may need someone with a PMP to cross check you or something like that....

 

[steppinthrax]

I think the PMP cert has higher bang for the buck than an MBA assuming you meet the requirements to sit for it. The application process is brutal -- IIRC, you have to document 4500 hours of project experience in EXCRUCIATING detail. I started filling out the app a couple of years ago and calculated that when I was done, it would be 120 pages in length due to all the descriptions you have to give. I have seriously thought about hiring someone who has experience with the app to help me complete it.

I would never do an MBA unless someone else paid for it or I went the Western Governors route. Too risky going into debt for that degree right now, IMO.

PMP is what's HOT right now. MBA was hot at that time, but my suspicion is it's chilling down.

 

[z1ggy]

I think the PMP cert has higher bang for the buck than an MBA assuming you meet the requirements to sit for it. The application process is brutal -- IIRC, you have to document 4500 hours of project experience in EXCRUCIATING detail. I started filling out the app a couple of years ago and calculated that when I was done, it would be 120 pages in length due to all the descriptions you have to give. I have seriously thought about hiring someone who has experience with the app to help me complete it.

I would never do an MBA unless someone else paid for it or I went the Western Governors route. Too risky going into debt for that degree right now, IMO.

Holy tits. And... you might spend all that time, only for them to reject you???

Is a PMP a deadest requirement by most companies?

I mean, based on what I do as far as PM here goes, you basically just can't be a total retard and you could do it... ok that's an exaggeration, for this job you need some engineering knowledge and theoretical and practical knowledge... But you don't need to be a rocket scientist. It's basically systems engineering, with out any of the technical stuff that could be thrown in.

 

[BoberFett]

Can anybody who has experience in PM actually describe what they do? I'm considering applying to some jobs for PM positions, but I wouldn't actually say that's what I do now.

PMs manage expectations.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Yeah you have to have so many hundred hours of PM work as well as a college degree. There is a separate rule for HS degree. You have to put all that in there. You may be audited as well. I think you may need someone with a PMP to cross check you or something like that....

IIRC, 4500 hours of project experience with a degree and 7500 hours without. When they audit you, they call the people you list to verify the project details. My plan was (is, if I go through with it) to meet with each person I am listing before I even send the application to have them review their entries and agree that what I wrote is accurate.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

PMs manage expectations.

That's rather zen. :thumbsup:

 

[sourceninja]

...

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Holy tits. And... you might spend all that time, only for them to reject you???

Is a PMP a deadest requirement by most companies?

I mean, based on what I do as far as PM here goes, you basically just can't be a total retard and you could do it... ok that's an exaggeration, for this job you need some engineering knowledge and theoretical and practical knowledge... But you don't need to be a rocket scientist. It's basically systems engineering, with out any of the technical stuff that could be thrown in.

I doubt very seriously that they are going to reject you unless you really phone it in on the application. My advice would be to do what I mentioned in my previous post -- fill out the application and then meet with each of the people you list as project sponsors/contacts and have them read your description and agree to it. That's important because if you're audited, PMI contacts the people on your form and asks them questions so I think it makes sense to talk to your former sponsors to ensure your memories are accurate.

Read PMBOK if you want to see what the test covers. I'll be honest with you -- when you're not dozing off, you'll laugh at what's in the book. Seriously -- some of it is such common sense while other stuff is such contrived and useless BS, you'll roll your eyes.

And like most things in life, just because you have the cert means little. The PM on my largest project right now is exceptionally incompetent and we have to basically tell him how to do his job. Yes, he has a PMP AND an MBA but I'd wager he doesn't know either well.

 

[RichUK]

Can anybody who has experience in PM actually describe what they do? I'm considering applying to some jobs for PM positions, but I wouldn't actually say that's what I do now.

Manage Projects.