Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Luthien
You did look at the method that CBS uses to conduct their polls, correct?
Okay, firstly that survey was questioned earlier because of the small sample size, but your the one that brought it back up and used it against me so I simply pointed out I was correct using that survey so you are now attacking that surveys merrits. I already won that battle best to find a new survey.
I challenge you to find any place where I criticised the CBS poll for its sample size. I also never said you were incorrect to use that survey and I admitted that I mis-read the question about creationism.
That does not resolve the issues in the choice of the sample in the poll, however. I'm not claiming it's certainly wrong, but it is highly suspect without knowing precisely which area code and exchange were used to conduct it.
A poll conducted by Pew Research, a widely-respected independant polling and research group, on 30 August, 2005 found 42% of Americans believed in strict Creation, 48% believed in evolution, and 10% were not willing to commit to an answer.
Among "Evangelicals", 70% believed in strict Creationism.
Among Mainline Protestants, only 32% believed in strict Creationism. Catholics came in at 31%.
I Zenmervolt am prepared to fully concede the results of the poll from Pew Research. (
Link here.)
Originally posted by: Luthien
Haris poll versus Aris polls. You do realize you're trying way too hard to find numbers that fit your beliefs. You don't want to include people under the age of 18 because their beliefs are not as valid as voter age believers and you also want to separate out baptists with denominational differences to lower the statistics size. LOL
The fact that you lack the requisite denominational understanding to know that there are significant theological differences between Southern Baptists and other Baptists does not change the fact that those difference exist. It's quite simply not theologically accurate to say that the beliefs of the Southern Baptists mirror the beliefs of other Baptists.
If you want to use the ARIS poll, that's fine. The numbers are not different enough to worry about in terms of overall percentages. However, for accuracy, it most certainly is necessary to separate Souther Baptists from other Baptists. I've been open about this from the beginning and haven't hidden anything. It is what it is. Even if we lump all Baptists together (which I still hold to be inaccurate) we end up with, at best, 16.3% of the US population and 21.3% of Christians. (Using the ARIS numbers and incorrectly lumping all Baptists together.) Still a small minority.
I also never said that I didn't want to include people under 18. I simply pointed out that it was a difference in the two surveys that could logically explain the slight difference in outcomes. I made no value judgement regarding whether including people under 18 was positive or negative, and I do not make such a value judgement now.
You can attempt to attribute false statements to me all you like, but I'm going to call you on it every time.
ZV
"I Zenmervolt challenge you to find any place where I criticised the CBS poll for its sample size. I also never said you were incorrect to use that survey and I admitted that I mis-read the question about creationism."
I wasnt talking about you. I assumed you read everything before posting "victory is in the eye of the beholder," and debating percentages. Someone else brought up the small sample size. Hence the problem when people jump in on late posts thinking they are debating something new when it was already covered or partially so which has happened many times already between this thread and another. I simply will ignore people that repeat arguements already debated.
"I Zenmervolt am prepared to fully concede the results of the poll from Pew Research. (
Link here.)"
All I looked at was the table on believers in creationism/evolution (BIBLICAL for those that want to say otherwise, lol). I can agree to that table; all it does is prove my point that others were convinced was wrong, and you too I assume, because they not me have no clue about how fundmentalists still hold far more power within christianity than they imagined. I was being told that an "extremely small percentage" of christians believe in BIBLICAL creationism. Which is FALSE. Christians that believe in evolution or that the bible is not litteral do not want to hear that fundamentalist christians think they are WRONG and that they worship false idols (Catholocism), etc. That is why I was being attacked by christians who believe falsely that an extremely small percentage of christians take the bible litterally and believe in Biblical Creationism.
"I Zenmervolt also never said that I didn't want to include people under 18. I simply pointed out that it was a difference in the two surveys that could logically explain the slight difference in outcomes. I made no value judgement regarding whether including people under 18 was positive or negative, and I do not make such a value judgement now."
I stand by my statement and anyone reading what you said can see it was your intent.
You Zenmervolt said, "The Harris poll also only polled eligible voters, while the ARIS has no restriction and therefore includes people below the age of 18 who are less likely to have formulated their own belief system yet and more likely to simply parrot what their parents believe, which would slightly inflate the numbers for the more conservative/fundamentalist religions. (This would further be exaggerated by the tendency of the more fundamentalist sects encouraging larger families.)"
Now in conclusion debating who is specifically who and what specific denomination could possibly believe what in a specific christian denomination with over a hundred denominations (hundreds?) is in itself a testament to the failing of Christianity. Make your minds up people, lol.
JESUS is imaginary, lol I love this video!
LINK
According to the fundamentalist christians a whole lot of you need to goto
JESUS CAMP for reconditioning.
The problem is that Luthien has an axe to grind and apparently enjoys the writings of those that also have an axe to grind. He has shown that he enjoys the most rediculas of anti Jesus stuff.
Further, He does not understand that up till the beginning of 1960 Bibles were used as part of the curriculum in schools. That way before that it was a main stay of education. They were read over the loud speaker before school started and such up till 1062 or 3.
That the court proceedings that started to chip away at Chistianity in schools only took effect in the early 1960's. That up until the early 1900's or late 1800's evolution was illegal to teach in school and now it is illegal to teach Christ in school. He would see growth in man over time, but only in that man grew away from God and closer to a theorey filled with holes, gaps, falsehoods, etc. The further away from God this country goes the more problems we have. Divorce rates, abortion, theft, corporate theft and greed, medical theft and greed, and the list goes on.
There are many improvements for man kind in the last 100 years. But morals and ethics is not one of them. There used to be right and wrong. Kids used to think cheating in school is wrong. Now we teach that there is No right or wrong and kids think cheating to get what you want or need is OK.
Many people believe in the separation of church and state even though there is not one law or even implication of it in the constitution. In fact the constitution has God in it numerous times. The lincoln monument welcomes God each morning as the sun hits it as it is one of the first things if not the first in DC that the sun hits. So do most of the other DC buildings have Christian writings on them. But no one knows this and someone that hates God would never reveal this truth.
Further, the Supreme court, that legislates against our founding religion (a religion not intended to smother out or control other religions unlike other people and religions) presides in a court with the 10 commandments on the front of the building and 2 other places within the building. In fact, the Supreme Court, for decades, used to hold office in donated building from the Christians.
The ultra CA lilberal leads this garbage. CA liberals of today are yesteryears conservatives. CA conservatives are most other states liberals. CA liberals want no rules and no right or wrong, except for where others have God. They want no morals and no ethics and they have brought the country very close to what they want. Every one wants to be like CA. Just don't raise your kids there because everything is falling down around CA.
The only close to separation of Church and state documents they have is Jeffersons letter to a congregation. However, that has been twisted and miss stated so many times and for so long that people actually beleive a constitutional sep. church/state exists.
Well, they did the same thing with Abortion. Started in NY. The man that started it now realizes the harm he has done. He admits to changing 10' or even 100's of deaths in the country due to dangerous illegal abortions and changing it into 10,000' and more. He tells of how he had at one time, 2 clinics running 6am to 12am 7 days a week. All cash as most wives, daughters, women that got an abortion did not want any to know. He says he is now responsbible for some 60k murders. He knows it is murder and so do other doctors. Especially since they can now see with ultra sound and just how alive a 12 week old baby is.
But abortion is OK. Even though women that have one now celebrate another occasion in their life, the day thier child would have been born. Then there is all the mental health issues to go with it and there are tons of them.
How could there not be. They take the baby and tear it limb from limb in the mother. Pull the arm off. Another arm. Then a leg and another leg. Then they sit there and wrench on the head for a while till it too comes off. Sometimes they can not get it all torn apart. Yea. Those are nice mental and actual pictures. But hey, we don't need God and we can tear our unborn children limb from limb. Often the baby can be born still alive and lives for a while in a bowl just as below. Niiiiiice.
And if we don't do it that way they use water with a huge salt concentration. They pump it into the womb. Then the child breaths it in and it Bakes and Cooks them from the inside out. Slowly just like the other procedure. About 1/3 or more of these are live births where they slide them right into a stainless steel bowl. They can not touch them in any way or they would have to be medically responsible. So instead the child just sits there slowly dieing, maybe crying, moving and shaking around for an hour or more. Niiiiiice.
But hey, they name these things procedures with harmless and disarming names. Not unlike the Anti Church and State people. Only problem is, is that it is all lies.
Peace and Blessings
See Ginggritches new book on the DC monuments if you like. You can hate him, but what he shows is Real. Not lies and twisted 1/2 truths.
You can look up abortion pictures and you will NOT like what you see. No wonder women have mental health and depression and suicide issues after.
Very very sad.