Proof God Is Real

[TechBoyJK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGKzH0F9c&NR=1

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it

What do you think? I'm interested to hear the arguments against this logic.

 

[jonks]

/lawnchair, umbrella, beer, low saturated fat baked chips (no olestra)

oh, and If God can do anything, can he create an unstoppable force and have it collide with an immovable object?

 

[Joemonkey]

/lawnchair
/popcorn
/beer

 

[shocksyde]

My response is: What/Who created the creator?

 

[Ns1]

IF there was a god, I'd have cookies. I have no cookies, therefore there is no god.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

/passing through on way to lunch

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: Ns1
IF there was a god, I'd have cookies. I have no cookies, therefore there is no god.

did you check your browser?

 

[Turin39789]

given: matter, time and space are finite

If given then babble nonsense

Yet another Techboi thread

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Originally posted by: Ns1
IF there was a god, I'd have cookies. I have no cookies, therefore there is no god.

did you check your browser?

:Q

THERE IS A GOD!

 

[Crono]

"This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal. "

It's not a new argument. I've used this myself. Everyone acknowledges the truth of this, but people will still say "but the universe isn't a person, like gods or a God, nor does it demand worship of it".

People will either believe in an eternal universe, an eternal cycle of universes, God, gods, or just themselves. There's no such thing as believing in nothing, or not believing in anything. All living and concious human beings put their ultimate faith in something or someone.

 

[ConwayJim]

Originally posted by: jonks
/lawnchair, umbrella, beer, low saturated fat baked chips (no olestra)

/lawnchair, hey pass the chips...

 

[actuarial]

This doesn't answer anything.

Cliffs for article: We can't possibly understand all the functions of the universe, so anything we don't understand had to have been created by a powerful being, and that single powerful being did EVERYTHING we don't understand.

Problems with logic: Most people believe in God as someone who cares about what we do in our lives, and all this possibly 'proves' is that we are created. It takes an entirely massive, and non-logical jump from assuming a powerful creator to assuming that creator cares. Second, any question which inventing a creator answers, must immediately be re-asked of said creator. The only logic behind belief in God is if you are not comfortable admitting that there are aspects of life which we cannot understand.

 

[EvilYoda]

Whenever I see a post that has something like "What do you think? I'm interested to hear the arguments against this logic", my eyes instantly glaze over and lose any interest I might have previously had.

"Look at me, I'm asking an innocent question, it's not like I'm trying to start a flame war here, really guys"

 

[child of wonder]

This flies in the face of everything Pastafarianism stands for. May FSM have mercy on your soul.

 

[Tweak155]

I'd say a lot of this makes sense, but you come down to two basic arguments:

1 - We define space and time, not the universe.

2 - The universe is eternal, not a God.

Give it up folks, we can't say precisely one way or the other, just believe what you want to believe.

 

[frostedflakes]

Text

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: actuarial
This doesn't answer anything.

Cliffs for article: We can't possibly understand all the functions of the universe, so anything we don't understand had to have been created by a powerful being, and that single powerful being did EVERYTHING we don't understand.

Problems with logic: Most people believe in God as someone who cares about what we do in our lives, and all this possibly 'proves' is that we are created. It takes an entirely massive, and non-logical jump from assuming a powerful creator to assuming that creator cares. Second, any question which inventing a creator answers, must immediately be re-asked of said creator. The only logic behind belief in God is if you are not comfortable admitting that there are aspects of life which we cannot understand.

He doesn't even get that deep into it in the video. Did you watch it? He's just arguing the idea of something eternal that existed before space and time using already known facts about the universe. It doesn't have anything to do with a creator caring or not. I was hoping for arguments against the logic not troll like posts that have nothing to do with it.

 

[Howard]

Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.

I don't understand the rest of the finite/infinite crap, but this is the part that's wrong.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: ConwayJim

Originally posted by: jonks
/lawnchair, umbrella, beer, low saturated fat baked chips (no olestra)

/lawnchair, hey pass the chips...

*toss* I got onion dip too.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: Howard

Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.

I don't understand the rest of the finite/infinite crap, but this is the part that's wrong.

why is it wrong?

 

[evident]

dude im hungry

 

[Tweak155]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Text

lol

 

[vshah]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

This flies in the face of everything Pastafarianism stands for. May FSM have mercy on your soul.

all praise his noodley appendage!!!

 

[roid450]

Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?

this has been on my mind since I knew about God. I demand an answer

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: jonks
/lawnchair, umbrella, beer, low saturated fat baked chips (no olestra)

oh, and If God can do anything, can he create an unstoppable force and have it collide with an immovable object?

can God roll a fattie so big even he couldn't toke it?

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?