Proof God Is Real

[SunnyD]

Before time was created, there was no time. So when was time created?

 

[bignateyk]

Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?

Did you even read it?

God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

My feeling on the article is that there are things in the universe and our creation that we cannot and will not ever understand.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?

Did you even read it?

God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

Half of these people aren't even reading it and not actually trying to think about the logic that corners you into having to except that there was something before. It's cut and dry really. In order for something to have been before time, it would have to be eternal. If it's eternal, it wasn't created.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?

Did you even read it?

God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

What if MacGuyver made it?

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?

Did you even read it?

God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

Half of these people aren't even reading it and not actually trying to think about the logic that corners you into having to except that there was something before. It's cut and dry really. In order for something to have been before time, it would have to be eternal. If it's eternal, it wasn't created.

You have usage errors.

 

[yllus]

Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefore must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.

Why must it be created by something infinite?

If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time.

Who is claiming an infinite number of changes? I didn't.

Why is it logically impossible to conclude this moment in time could not have occurred? Given an enormous amount of X the possibility of identical Xes grows larger.

Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).

Isn't the very definition of an orbit "the (usually elliptical) path described by one celestial body in its revolution about another"? Admittedly I don't know squat about this, but if we're going to nitpick the "facts" he brings up, by his own admission the Earth has a tighter (shorter) orbit around the Sun than Mars does - thus Earth will have circled the Sun more than Mars has. And why is this "clearly impossible" anyways?

At this point you should be suspecting whoever write this is an idiot. An idiot with a decent mastery of gobbledygook, but an idiot nonetheless.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created.

Sure, we can stipulate this for the sake of the hypothesis. Continuing...

Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us.

Fallacy: False Dilemma

This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. That this is the case is made clear by the following example:

1. Either 1+1=4 or 1+1=12.
2. It is not the case that 1+1=4.
3. Therefore 1+1=12.

Coming to the crux of the "argument":

If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Wrong. There was no logical A -> B, B -> C, C -> God. Lots of unsupported stipulations occurred with no reasonable, explained justification behind them. Author is hereby asked to take a remedial course in discrete mathematics.

 

[maziwanka]

haha.

your post doesn't argue anything. it just assumes a creator, like every other argument before it.

 

[rbV5]

Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless),

*without knowing what the universe is made of (our knowlege is incomplete currently) whether "it" is made of "finate things" is unknown.

*The "universe" is a "result", not a "creation"

 

[meltdown75]

is this burning
an eternal flame
say my name
sun shines through the rain
a whole life... so lonely
and then you come and ease the pain
i don't want to lose this feeeeeeeling... ohhhhhhhhh

:music:

 

[OCGuy]

LOL @ OP

 

[jonks]

Why's it have to be one god? Why not 2 forces that always existed in opposition to each other maintaining a balance in existence since exitence existed?

 

[bdude]

(oYo)

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: jonks
Why's it have to be one god? Why not 2 forces that always existed in opposition to each other maintaining a balance in existence since exitence existed?

Because "God" is "the" placeholder for the unkown, think of "God" as "X".

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

He doesn't even get that deep into it in the video. Did you watch it? He's just arguing the idea of something eternal that existed before space and time using already known facts about the universe. It doesn't have anything to do with a creator caring or not. I was hoping for arguments against the logic not troll like posts that have nothing to do with it.

Did you read my response? I had one line in it pertaining to God caring. The rest was about the logic used.

Example of equal logic:
1) Child doesn't understand why sky is blue
2) Child hypothesizes that sky is blue because someone painted it blue a long time ago. Something can't just BECOME blue, so something must have made it blue.

The child in this example actually understands MORE about the colour of the sky than we do about time and the universe.

You can't just narrowly define something to get around an explanation. In this case it's done by saying God is eternal. Why is it logical to say that God is eternal, but not logical to say the universe is eternal?

 

[WolverineGator]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Before time was created, there was no time. So when was time created?

Exactly right. Time and space started together. Nothing existed before time and before space. If you were a god you couldn't even sit back and look at that singular thing that turned into the big bang. Since time didn't exist, a god couldn't even think about creating Earth/us/etc!

 

[Zenmervolt]

1) Time does not exist as any sort of physical entity. "Time" is nothing more than a human construct and exists only in our minds. It is a result of the constraints of our perceptive abilities, but it is not an entity in itself.

2) Whoop-de-do, the author of that little screed discovered Zeno's Paradox.

3)

So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).

No. "Infinity" is not a number and it is therefore incorrect to say that both earth and mars have gone around the sun the exact same number of times if their orbiting has been going on through eternity. Mistaking "infinity" for a fixed number is a classic mistake by people who lack a foundational understanding in mathematical theory. "Infinity" is nothing more or less than the state of being un-bounded, it is not a "number" in and of itself.

Obviously, the "impossibility" of infinite regress is not an actual condition but is only a result of the author's inability to understand the concept of infinity.

4)

You cannot have an infinite number of finite things.

Why not? What evidence does the author provide to support this assertion? I see none. Again, "finite" only means "bounded". It is possible, at least in theory, to have an unbounded amount of an item whose individual dimensions are bounded. In this case the "infinite" applies to the set while the "finite" applies only to the components of the set, but the "finite" and "infinite" do not conflict.

5)

God exists outside of time, in Eternity.

Proof?

6)

God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him.

We have already established that "time" is not a physical entity and does not exist outside of the human mind. A supernatural being's perceptions may not be bound by the same limitations as our own and therefore it may be a reasonable analogy to claim that such an entity is "outside of time", but it does not follow from this that such an entity has "created" time.

7)

God is Eternal, not created.

So you posit, but this cannot be proven. At best this is a working hypothesis which forms a small piece of your foundation.

8)

Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

We've covered this. "Time" is not a physical entity. Infinite regression is possible; it is only the author's lack of mathematical ability that leads him to his erroneous claim. Since, in number 3, we have shown that infinite regression is possible, the quote directly above becomes a false dichotomy and there is at least one other option, which is that the universe itself has existed for eternity.

Essentially, this is a bunch of pseudo-scientific crap being proffered by someone who clearly lacks a fundamental understanding of mathematical concepts.

ZV

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

He doesn't even get that deep into it in the video. Did you watch it? He's just arguing the idea of something eternal that existed before space and time using already known facts about the universe. It doesn't have anything to do with a creator caring or not. I was hoping for arguments against the logic not troll like posts that have nothing to do with it.

Did you read my response? I had one line in it pertaining to God caring. The rest was about the logic used.

Example of equal logic:
1) Child doesn't understand why sky is blue
2) Child hypothesizes that sky is blue because someone painted it blue a long time ago. Something can't just BECOME blue, so something must have made it blue.

The child in this example actually understands MORE about the colour of the sky than we do about time and the universe.

You can't just narrowly define something to get around an explanation. In this case it's done by saying God is eternal. Why is it logical to say that God is eternal, but not logical to say the universe is eternal?

I see you are new here.

Rule #48572 - Do not respond sincerely to anything Techboi says in one of his religious threads.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: yllus

Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).

Isn't the very definition of an orbit "the (usually elliptical) path described by one celestial body in its revolution about another"? Admittedly I don't know squat about this, but if we're going to nitpick the "facts" he brings up, by his own admission the Earth has a tighter (shorter) orbit around the Sun than Mars does - thus Earth will have circled the Sun more than Mars has. And why is this "clearly impossible" anyways?

At this point you should be suspecting whoever write this is an idiot. An idiot with a decent mastery of gobbledygook, but an idiot nonetheless.

the idiot who wrote this nonsense claims that if the Earth and Mars were revolving around the sun for eternity (meaning forever or infinitely) then they both have done it the same amount of times (infinitely).

its all just a BS God/creation moronfest.

 

[polarmystery]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
is this burning
an eternal flame
say my name
sun shines through the rain
a whole life... so lonely
and then you come and ease the pain
i don't want to lose this feeeeeeeling... ohhhhhhhhh

:music:

I like this song

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

I see you are new here.

Rule #48572 - Do not respond sincerely to anything Techboi says in one of his religious threads.

I'm sorry.

Will you be lenient if I promise never to do it again.

Also, I've lurked for many years. I'm just a sucker for being baited into a debate on God/religion.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

A few things...

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGKzH0F9c&NR=1

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.

There's nothing inconsistent about an infinite collection of finite things. It is a fallacy to claim that a set must be finite because its members are finite sets.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

So many fallacies right here, apart from the one repeated here that I identified previously.

1.) Time, as best as we can tell, is continuous. That means that within every real duration in time, there are an infinite number of subsets of time between the beginning and endpoint of that duration.

2.) There is nothing illogical about a past-infinite timeline. The claim that "we could [never] have reached this moment" is a false one. Pick any point in the past and we can define a real interval from that point to the present.

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

Infinity is not a number, per se, so it is not true that the number of revolutions for each planet must be equal after an infinite amount of time. The revolution count for each one doesn't suddenly "reach infinity" and then become equal to others that have also "reached infinity."

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created.

Baseless and meaningless postulates.

Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible),

When we talk about something "coming from nothing," what we're really saying is that it didn't "come from" anything. That isn't inconsistent; in fact it is exactly what people postulate about gods.

or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

Eternal is defined as "existing for all time values," so time is eternal by definition.

{snip}

The author of this piece basically fails at math and physics.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Most cosmologists (astronomers and physicists who study the origins of the universe) are either conflicted or simply have no answer for just how the universe came into existence. Nearly all of them will claim that the universe has been around for a finite length of time (roughly 13-17 billion years) and have come up with reasonably good hypotheses for how the early periods of the universe unfolded. But what caused the Big Bang? Nobody knows. It may be unknowable, though that's a word you can't throw around lightly. I'm hesitant to just say "oh, well God created the Big Bang" because that's just a rehash of the "God of the gaps" theory that is so worthless. What if we make some scientific breakthrough and are actually able to get a pretty good idea for what caused the Big Bang?

The fact is there are two philosophies here. One is the philosophy that many scientists would probably agree is at least possible - that there is some hugely powerful force at work in our universe or perhaps outside it, that inherently can't be observed and may or may not be sentient. By this definition of "God," you could say that God is the "grand unified theory" of physics, or that God is the uncertainty principle, or that God is the universe itself... it doesn't really mean anything though. That's where the other philosophy comes in - the one of a personal God. That is, a sentient being who actually cares about what happens to us tiny humans on a tiny planet smaller than a single speck of algae in all the oceans.

It's not a stretch to say that there are things larger than ourselves in the universe. However, I think it's pretty unlikely that there's a personal God. Calling anything else (that is larger than ourselves) "God" is kind of diluting the meaning of the word. And a personal God as Christians describe him would have to exist out of our plane of existence, perhaps in another dimension or something, which would make him inherently unobservable. Thus, no proof could ever be found of his existence, and many people (like me) would never be able to believe in him since there's no way of knowing. That's where faith comes in, but I for one don't see the value in believing in something in the total absence of evidence.

 

[Tweak155]

Originally posted by: yllus

Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).

Isn't the very definition of an orbit "the (usually elliptical) path described by one celestial body in its revolution about another"? Admittedly I don't know squat about this, but if we're going to nitpick the "facts" he brings up, by his own admission the Earth has a tighter (shorter) orbit around the Sun than Mars does - thus Earth will have circled the Sun more than Mars has. And why is this "clearly impossible" anyways?

At this point you should be suspecting whoever write this is an idiot. An idiot with a decent mastery of gobbledygook, but an idiot nonetheless.

He is saying we would call them both infinite, but earth is clearly 2x infinite, which isn't possible.

I don't think it held much weight, but made sense.

 

[blurredvision]

I find it funny that somebody tries to use logic to prove the existence of an illogical thing.

 

[JTsyo]

Couple of points,
1. things can have a beginning and still be infinite (ie a ray)
2. Following point 1 is it known time and space has an end? If the universe is expanding ever faster, space is growing. Of course time is moving forward.
3. You can't exist before time. What would existing outside time even mean?
4. If the universe was created by something outside the universe, trying to use the laws of this universe to prove it is futile