Proof God Is Real

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Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
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This entire thing sounds like it was written by someone with absolutely no understanding of science misapplying scientific principles to somehow prove the existence of the metaphysical. This is a gross distortion of the scientific method, as any scientist worth his salt will tell you that science can not be used to either prove nor disprove the existence of any supernatural metaphysical creative force; it is simply beyond the realm of what science can claim to test for. So to attempt to distort these principles and arrive at the logical conclusion that everything we don't understand is proof of God's existence is not only unscientific by design, it is completely illogical. Nonetheless, I'll argue some specific points where I take issue with the logic of the author.

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.
This one is meaningless. First off, there are a number of theories that deal with the concept of space-time, multiple universes, and dimensions that we are not capable of perceiving which call into question the idea that our universe is eternal or infinite. Second, the prevailing theory of the creation of the Universe (the Big Bang) offers us an age of the universe at roughly 14 billion years; that's a long time, but it's certainly not eternal. Since the claim made revolves around a universe that is both eternal and infinite, you must prove that it is either of these things before you can advance an argument around it; the author cannot.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.
Again, the author shoots himself in the foot. No scientist would ever claim that Mars and the Earth have existed for an infinite amount of time; we are frequently cited 4.5 billion years as the age of the Earth. Assuming a similar age for Mars, we can come up with a rough estimate of exactly how many orbits each has made around the sun; to wit, 4.5 billion for the Earth, 2.25 billion for Mars. These are large numbers, but they are hardly infinite. This renders the author's claims based on "eternity" completely meaningless, as they are based around false data.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Here we are presented with a false dichotomy; either we spontaneously burst into existence from nothingness or we were created by a metaphysical being (presumably from nothingness). But this metaphysical being can't have been created from nothingness, because that would undermine the argument the author is trying to advance, so he conveniently labels this being as eternal. The problem with this logic is that we have absolutely no evidence to support this theory outside of a lack of large amounts of evidence to support other theories. That's not a convincing argument. That's coming up with a solution that effectively absolves you from having to collect any more data or do any experimentation; it's explaining to a child that a lightbulb works by "magic" because you can't be bothered to figure it out yourself.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it
Again, the author attempts to advance an argument as though it were logical and based around some degree of scientific thought. But the argument is still fundamentally based around a single tenet; I don't understand this, so the only possible explanation is a supernatural metaphysical being. We are so arrogant to assume that if we don't understand something, the only possible explanation is a creator who is even smarter than we are (yet someone we hope we can understand). What hubris. What gall.

I cannot say whether God exists or does not exist. Science doesn't offer the tools to test for the presence of the metaphysical. I respect that. I personally have not seen evidence that convinces me that there is an omnipotent creator, but I am fully aware that I could be wrong. However, I do know that attempting to misrepresent science, attempting to put forth any sort of logical argument to prove or disprove God is folly from the get-go; God is inherently unknowable, unprovable. You can speak pretty words, you can form arguments from either side, at the end of the day, it's all petty banter. The truth is we simply cannot know; not in this lifetime anyway. As long as we live our lives as good people who honestly cares whether or not we all believe in the same metaphysical creative force?
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,817
952
126
Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt
A few things...

1.) Time, as best as we can tell, is continuous. That means that within every real duration in time, there are an infinite number of subsets of time between the beginning and endpoint of that duration.

Sure about that? I often heard that Planck time is the smallest step in time. Meaning that it is discrete.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
10
81
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Howard
Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.
I don't understand the rest of the finite/infinite crap, but this is the part that's wrong.

why is it wrong?
Why is it right?
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Couple of points,
1. things can have a beginning and still be infinite (ie a ray)
2. Following point 1 is it known time and space has an end? If the universe is expanding ever faster, space is growing. Of course time is moving forward.
3. You can't exist before time. What would existing outside time even mean?
4. If the universe was created by something outside the universe, trying to use the laws of this universe to prove it is futile

Exactly. If God or some other powerful force existed before the creation of our universe and was the one who created it, then ignoring the question of where did that thing come from, how would we be able to ever know the nature of it?

Point is, most Christians talk of faith and accepting God despite there being no evidence of his existence... especially because there is no evidence. They say that if we had proof God existed, there'd be no more faith, and apparently God gets his power from faith? I don't get it. Doesn't make sense to me. But the bottom line is, people who claim to be able to prove God's existence aren't only wrong, but they fundamentally don't understand what the fuck they're doing. If you want to believe, fine, but there's no way to convince anyone of it scientifically. And some people (myself included) aren't particularly interested in subscribing to theories that actively discourage you from trying to prove them.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt
A few things...

1.) Time, as best as we can tell, is continuous. That means that within every real duration in time, there are an infinite number of subsets of time between the beginning and endpoint of that duration.

Sure about that? I often heard that Planck time is the smallest step in time. Meaning that it is discrete.

"1 Planck time should be the smallest unit of time physics can reason about in a meaningful way."
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
The whole situation really can't be accurately debated. Saying everything is finite (matter, etc) isn't relevant, because there could very well be things we don't know about. Infinite things. There's a whole universe of shit we haven't discovered. And some of it could be proof God doesn't exist (or that he does).
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
Science, phyisics, etc... will only ever be able to take us back to the instant that time began. But where did it come from? We will never be able to answer that question.

I just laugh when I hear people try to tell me that it just appeared from nothing. I don't think people actually understand what nothing is. Nothing is nothing. No forces, no energy, no laws of phyiscs, no matter of any kind, no particles, NOTHING.

Something can't come from nothing, and humans will never be able to answer that question.

We will never be able to explain the true origin of the universe. We will only be able to go back as far as the moments right after the creation of the universe.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,218
8
81
Originally posted by: actuarial
Originally posted by: Turin39789

I see you are new here.

Rule #48572 - Do not respond sincerely to anything Techboi says in one of his religious threads.

I'm sorry.

Will you be lenient if I promise never to do it again.

Also, I've lurked for many years. I'm just a sucker for being baited into a debate on God/religion.

No excuses. Pants off and report to the mod room for punishment.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt
A few things...

1.) Time, as best as we can tell, is continuous. That means that within every real duration in time, there are an infinite number of subsets of time between the beginning and endpoint of that duration.

Sure about that? I often heard that Planck time is the smallest step in time. Meaning that it is discrete.

Not so sure about that anymore.

http://www.space.com/scienceas...antum_bits_030402.html
 

BAMAVOO

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,087
41
91
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,548
7
81
Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.
but the feeling of faith to the faithless is little more than proof of insanity. or gas.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,934
3,229
146
Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

or that the alternative is too unbearable to handle.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,934
3,229
146
i think if we all just accepted that we were not created in a gods image and that we must evolve ourselves or die out something like heavon on earth might exist one day. If we continue these archaic, masochistic institutions of backwards thinking I'm pretty sure we will kill ourselves off.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,502
136
Originally posted by: BudAshes
i think if we all just accepted that we were not created in a gods image and that we must evolve ourselves or die out something like heavon on earth might exist one day. If we continue these archaic, masochistic institutions of backwards thinking I'm pretty sure we will kill ourselves off.

A belief in God doesn't mean that Christians don't want "heaven on earth". Actually, the Kingdom of God is seen as the way that will bring it to pass. If we are more like Christ, and less selfish, then we will be closer to that reality. No level of advancement in technology, knowledge, or political movements alone can't do that as long as the human heart is wicked and desires to use those things for selfish purposes. People promise heaven on earth, but they can't deliver it.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,817
952
126
Originally posted by: bignateyk
Science, phyisics, etc... will only ever be able to take us back to the instant that time began. But where did it come from? We will never be able to answer that question.

I just laugh when I hear people try to tell me that it just appeared from nothing. I don't think people actually understand what nothing is. Nothing is nothing. No forces, no energy, no laws of phyiscs, no matter of any kind, no particles, NOTHING.

Something can't come from nothing, and humans will never be able to answer that question.

We will never be able to explain the true origin of the universe. We will only be able to go back as far as the moments right after the creation of the universe.

I wouldn't say never. Just not in our lifetime or the foreseeable future. If humanity survives for a few millennia at the current trend, I'm sure we would find interesting things to research.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
This is the easiest argument to prove wrong. It bases itself on the fact that the universe had to be created. If you think that is true, then why didn't god have to be created?

And if you say god didn't need to be created, you could say the same thing about the universe - it has just always existed.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,502
136
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: bignateyk
Science, phyisics, etc... will only ever be able to take us back to the instant that time began. But where did it come from? We will never be able to answer that question.

I just laugh when I hear people try to tell me that it just appeared from nothing. I don't think people actually understand what nothing is. Nothing is nothing. No forces, no energy, no laws of phyiscs, no matter of any kind, no particles, NOTHING.

Something can't come from nothing, and humans will never be able to answer that question.

We will never be able to explain the true origin of the universe. We will only be able to go back as far as the moments right after the creation of the universe.

I wouldn't say never. Just not in our lifetime or the foreseeable future. If humanity survives for a few millennia at the current trend, I'm sure we would find interesting things to research.

Science can't tell us anything about before the physical universe (time, space, matter, energy) came into existence. It's not a matter of possessing the right technology, instruments, or knowledge, it just cannot, by very definition, tell us anything beyond that first moment. Any type of explanation or belief about what came before is not science, it is belief.
 

Chronoshock

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
4,860
1
81
Without even reading the argument in depth, I can clearly see a poor grasp of logic, science, and mathematics (golly what a surprise).
Countably infinite sets may appear to vary by a constant factor but they are in fact equal. An example of dissimilar infinite sets is the set of all whole numbers and the set of all real numbers. I would explain further but I doubt people like the OP would care or attempt to understand it.
 

rbV5

Lifer
Dec 10, 2000
12,632
0
0
Originally posted by: Crono
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: bignateyk
Science, phyisics, etc... will only ever be able to take us back to the instant that time began. But where did it come from? We will never be able to answer that question.

I just laugh when I hear people try to tell me that it just appeared from nothing. I don't think people actually understand what nothing is. Nothing is nothing. No forces, no energy, no laws of phyiscs, no matter of any kind, no particles, NOTHING.

Something can't come from nothing, and humans will never be able to answer that question.

We will never be able to explain the true origin of the universe. We will only be able to go back as far as the moments right after the creation of the universe.

I wouldn't say never. Just not in our lifetime or the foreseeable future. If humanity survives for a few millennia at the current trend, I'm sure we would find interesting things to research.

Science can't tell us anything about before the physical universe (time, space, matter, energy) came into existence. It's not a matter of possessing the right technology, instruments, or knowledge, it just cannot, by very definition, tell us anything beyond that first moment. Any type of explanation or belief about what came before is not science, it is belief.

Thats what you believe anyway
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Lol, you can't take any of these "proofs" seriously.


Here's a similar proof that there is no god:
Being able to do the same thing with an impediment means you are more powerful, therefore a god with a disability is more powerful than a god with no disabilities. The god with the greatest disability is the most powerful one and nothing and non-existence is the greatest disability you can have, ergo there is no god.
 
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