Proof God Is Real

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Udgnim
lock thread

another faith versus science thread

Don't back seat mod...

or alternatively

WWYBYWB?

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: krylon

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

What if you find gay inside yourself? Does God like gay?

God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. You should repent and live your life for him as he gave his life for you.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Insomniator
ROFL at that "argument" if you can even consider it one.

We don't know how the universe started so GOD EXISTS!! LOOK WITHIN YOURSELF!!

i.e.

I can't explain it, therefore god must have done it

a.k.a.

I can't explain it, therefore I can explain it

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

So you're telling me to use the force?

If using the force will help you find the truth, then by all means use the force.

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: WelshBloke

Originally posted by: krylon

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

What if you find gay inside yourself? Does God like gay?

Literally or metaphorically?

Cos if it was literally I'd probably be worrying about other things than the existence of god. :shocked:

You know what I mean

Keep your hands out of there. Search your heart, look around you. Talk to God, you will see.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

Originally posted by: WelshBloke

Originally posted by: krylon

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

What if you find gay inside yourself? Does God like gay?

Literally or metaphorically?

Cos if it was literally I'd probably be worrying about other things than the existence of god. :shocked:

You know what I mean

Keep your hands out of there. Search your heart, look around you. Talk to God, you will see.

:laugh:

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: chalmers
Is there something wrong with me?

Yes.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

I'm willing to postulate that the universe is not infinite and possibly not eternal. Those two terms may not even mean anything when it comes to universes, which contain time merely as a facet of themselves, rather than existing "within" time. It does not follow from this postulate that there need be anything infinite beyond this universe, much less a creator. Even if we succumb to the gut feeling that if we get to the end of the universe and then go another step beyond it, there has to be some sort of space or "stuff" there, and beyond that more space or "stuff" on to infinity; there is no reason to think that any of that great beyond is the "creator" of the universe in the sense that we so ardently wish it to be. One might say that since this universe exists in whatever "stuff" is beyond it, that stuff must be the creator itself, but now we are expanding the term creator to mean something other than what is commonly intended. If we were talking about whether the universe is made up of inanimate objects and therefore "created" by them, then there would be no argument from me. It clearly IS made up of inanimate objects, but there are those who seem to want to glorify these objects with the term "creator" for the pleasure of claiming an ultimately hollow victory. I just want to ask them "If all you were arguing for is the privilege to call something that even you admit may not be intelligent or aware your "creator" why didn't you say so in the first place so I could stop wasting my time"? It's a trifle that deserves no consideration whatsoever. No, in order for this argument to make sense we must be talking about an omnipotent and aware entity who intelligently created the universe and everything in it vs. a universe that exists and came to be through no form of intelligent artifice or intent.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Maybe there cannot be an infinite regress. There's no reason to believe that any and all regresses must terminate with God. There could be something else. Something that is not intelligent. Something like the Atom, which solved the conundrum about what happens if you divide any object an infinite number of times. You can divide it until you get to the atom, whatever you have after you divide that is no longer the same thing.

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

We have been able to pin an approximate age on the universe, so no one is saying that earth and mars have been orbiting the sun for an infinite amount of time. They have orbited the the sun however many times they have been able to do so in the billions of years since they formed from space detritus.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

Those are not the only two choices. In fact, I would not think either of them are very likely. Everything most likely did not come from nothing. Something may have always existed, but there is no reason to think that it intelligently "created" us. So we have several choices, but there are at least 2 that are relevant to this discussion. Either everything came to exist without the help of any sort of intelligent creator, or everything did come to exist with the help of an intelligent creator. Ruminations about what may or may not lie outside or have come before this universe are useless because; a.) they do nothing to support or refute the existence of an intelligent creator. b.) they are outside what feeble bit of knowledge we have anyway. Get it through your head that even if there WAS always some sort of matter and energy or anything outside this universe there is no guarantee that it is the creator that would make this argument relevant against the assumed counterpoint. Therefore universe from nothing vs. intelligent creator are not the only 2 options. Intelligent creator should not be a default position among the options that we have to choose from when we consider the origins of the universe outside the constraints of this debate either.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

No argument. See above.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

No argument. See above.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it


What do you think? I'm interested to hear the arguments against this logic.

This line of logic follows from what I have already refuted above. Any intelligent being that was able to create a universe such as ours would indeed be extremely powerful from our perspective, but , as I have mentioned, the intelligent creator is not guaranteed by the impossibility of an infinite regress, if an infinite regress is indeed impossible. The universe and whatever may be beyond could be said to be full of power, as one might refer to a charged battery being full of power, but not "powerful" as one might refer to a sentient entity, at least not with any certainty.

 

[PepePeru]

all hail the wisdom of VenomFangX

Highly he ranks amongst the World's foremost thinkers.

That was definitely VenomFangXian argument that he presented.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

Originally posted by: WelshBloke

Originally posted by: krylon

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

What if you find gay inside yourself? Does God like gay?

Literally or metaphorically?

Cos if it was literally I'd probably be worrying about other things than the existence of god. :shocked:

You know what I mean

Keep your hands out of there. Search your heart, look around you. Talk to God, you will see.

Personal hallucinations are possibly the least convincing evidence you've presented thus far.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

drivel


reminds me of rogodin2.
thats not a compliment.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Topic Title: Proof God Is Real
Topic Summary: Can you actually argue against this logic?

Definitely. What is astonishing is the fact that an amateur pseudo-intellectual is trying to do what the smartest people of all time have been trying to do, and failing without resorting to obscurity and logical fallacy. Good luck. You probably won't succeed.

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Intuition alone is not sufficient to cause me to concede this point.

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

I'll get this out of the way: Who created God. And do go special pleading and say "he doesn't have a creator."

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created.

Please define with positive terms the ontology of "outside of time". What is the essence of that statement? It is meaningless outside of your deluded, poisoned mind.

As you said before, time is a measure of change, but additionally duration. God is not only unchanging in this respect, but also unconscious and cannot have existed "prior" to the Universe.

He could not have "created" the Universe because creation is a temporal event. Temporal events can only take place in the context of time, and before the Universe existed, time did not exist. Thus, QED, God is subject to time. If he is subject to time, h cannot be the author of time, and certainly cannot be "outside" of time - as if time was a bubble. It's not.

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us.

No. The opposite of being caused is being uncaused. The Universe is uncaused. The opposite of being caused is not being caused by nothing. There is a difference.

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

God can't exist without time - our very concept of existence is tied to time.

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator.

No. That is an equivocation on the word "powerful". In the physical context, it means consisting of a lot of energy. In the context Christians use it, they mean (work / time).

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it

What? This is unproven. The whole argument is against the big bang - doesn't address evolution (which is a fact).

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
What do you think? I'm interested to hear the arguments against this logic.

You could have gone to infidels.org or at least watched tooltime9901's relevant videos or TheAmazingAtheists's responses.


A counter-argument:

Let S1 = the state before the Universe began to exist (not U)
Let S2 = the state after the Universe began to exist (U)

1. If something is created, then we must be able to distinguish between the state in which it does exist, and state in which it does not exist, into two distinct events - S1 and S2.
1. 1. If we cannot, then it did not come into existence or be created.
2. They cannot be the same state, because S1 and S2 would be true at the same time
2. 1. S1 and S2 would be true at the same time - (U and not U) - a straight contradiction.
3. Using time as a way to distinguish between the two states will not work, because prior to the existence of the Universe, time did not exist.
4. "Atemporal" causation cannot be used to distinguish between the two states, because they would be true at the same time.
4. 1. Atemporal causation requires the two states to be simultaneous. The formulator of the argument VFX is using here - William Lane Craig - describes a Augustine's example that the universe was created at the same instant as time. This cannot be true (by 2.1)
5. Therefore, no presented method of distinguishing between S1 and S2 are coherent.

It is up to the theist to provide a method to distinguish between S1 or S2, otherwise it cannot be said that the Universe "began to exist" or was created.

Additionally, this just pushes back the question further.

"How did the Universe begin?"
"God did it."
"How did he do that?"
"With his magic." or "We can't understand God" or "God works in mysterious ways". [dead end]

This thread should have ended with this post...

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: Turin39789

I see you are new here.

Rule #48572 - Do not respond sincerely to anything Techboi says in one of his religious threads.

I'm sorry.

Will you be lenient if I promise never to do it again.

Also, I've lurked for many years. I'm just a sucker for being baited into a debate on God/religion.

Only if you can show an understanding of oldsmoboats law and provide some nice rule 34.

Rule 34 and TechboyJK!!11!!

DO NOT WANT :|

 

[Aikouka]

I've always thought the bible was really awkward in relation to time... the whole concept of saying that God created everything over the course of six days (and the whole resting on the seventh) is just well... a bit silly. Maybe some theistic scholar could explain how in the world they came up with these sort of days.

 

[chitwood]

let's just go eat

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

Originally posted by: WelshBloke

Originally posted by: krylon

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

What if you find gay inside yourself? Does God like gay?

Literally or metaphorically?

Cos if it was literally I'd probably be worrying about other things than the existence of god. :shocked:

You know what I mean

Keep your hands out of there. Search your heart, look around you. Talk to God, you will see.

:laugh:

I think I like this guy better than our boy Sao.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGKzH0F9c&NR=1

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it

What do you think? I'm interested to hear the arguments against this logic.

That is some REALLY weak logic.

 

[tfcmasta97]

yes, this logic is anything but logical. there's a whole line of mathematics that's dedicated to approaching infinities. And the logic of 'so god musta did it' is anything but a 'proof'.

Even then, there's better logic in an approach that the universe is infinite. Reducing everything into a big bang still doesnt limit the universe to it as things may occur at even more diffult to fathom distances than a trillion lightyears.

I have always had a problem in people difining the universe as having limits as the concept of universe in itself should be eternal and infinite, as it is simply everything and anything at any time. If we're simply playing around with definitions then those who are religious with an approach that the universe in itself is god - as the universe is existence - which is what we percieve to be the defining feature of god - have a more logical approach to the question.

 

[Canai]

uh, no.

God relies on faith. With proof, there is no faith. With no faith, there is no God. With no God, there is no proof! With no proof, there is faith! With no God, there is God!

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Ok, I think people seem to fail to realize the whole sound vs valid thing in an argument. The logic here may be sound but in no way is the conclusion valid. I think this is more of a philosophical thread but most people choose this to start arguing the typical religion vs science stuff but this shouldn't be the case.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Ok, I think people seem to fail to realize the whole sound vs valid thing in an argument. The logic here may be sound but in no way is the conclusion valid. I think this is more of a philosophical thread but most people choose this to start arguing the typical religion vs science stuff but this shouldn't be the case.

It's neither valid nor sound. Read my argument and understand why. It's basically like asking which came first: chicken or egg? All we know is that now we have chickens that lay eggs. You can't possibly deduce the past from it.

 

[oiprocs]

Paging Jeff7, you are needed in this thread. The non-believers are losing the struggle.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
All you have to do is SERIOUSLY search within yourself. You will KNOW for a FACT that God exists.

Tell that to a zen buddhist.

 

[irishScott]

Read the whole thing. It's a hypothesis based on assumptions. Nothing else, nothing more, nothing but. When you can experimentally prove or even implicate something, let me know.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Well if you want to prove existence, just go back and read Descartes.

"I think, therefore, I am."

How do I prove my "thoughts" are original and not pre-programmed?