Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?
God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Originally posted by: bignateyk
Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?
Did you even read it?
God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Originally posted by: bignateyk
Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?
Did you even read it?
God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: bignateyk
Originally posted by: shocksyde
My response is: What/Who created the creator?
Did you even read it?
God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Half of these people aren't even reading it and not actually trying to think about the logic that corners you into having to except that there was something before. It's cut and dry really. In order for something to have been before time, it would have to be eternal. If it's eternal, it wasn't created.
Why must it be created by something infinite?Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefore must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.
Who is claiming an infinite number of changes? I didn't.If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time.
Isn't the very definition of an orbit "the (usually elliptical) path described by one celestial body in its revolution about another"? Admittedly I don't know squat about this, but if we're going to nitpick the "facts" he brings up, by his own admission the Earth has a tighter (shorter) orbit around the Sun than Mars does - thus Earth will have circled the Sun more than Mars has. And why is this "clearly impossible" anyways?Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).
Sure, we can stipulate this for the sake of the hypothesis. Continuing...Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created.
Fallacy: False DilemmaFirstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. That this is the case is made clear by the following example:
1. Either 1+1=4 or 1+1=12.
2. It is not the case that 1+1=4.
3. Therefore 1+1=12.
Wrong. There was no logical A -> B, B -> C, C -> God. Lots of unsupported stipulations occurred with no reasonable, explained justification behind them. Author is hereby asked to take a remedial course in discrete mathematics.If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.
Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless),
Originally posted by: jonks
Why's it have to be one god? Why not 2 forces that always existed in opposition to each other maintaining a balance in existence since exitence existed?
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
He doesn't even get that deep into it in the video. Did you watch it? He's just arguing the idea of something eternal that existed before space and time using already known facts about the universe. It doesn't have anything to do with a creator caring or not. I was hoping for arguments against the logic not troll like posts that have nothing to do with it.
Originally posted by: SunnyD
Before time was created, there was no time. So when was time created?
No. "Infinity" is not a number and it is therefore incorrect to say that both earth and mars have gone around the sun the exact same number of times if their orbiting has been going on through eternity. Mistaking "infinity" for a fixed number is a classic mistake by people who lack a foundational understanding in mathematical theory. "Infinity" is nothing more or less than the state of being un-bounded, it is not a "number" in and of itself.So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).
Why not? What evidence does the author provide to support this assertion? I see none. Again, "finite" only means "bounded". It is possible, at least in theory, to have an unbounded amount of an item whose individual dimensions are bounded. In this case the "infinite" applies to the set while the "finite" applies only to the components of the set, but the "finite" and "infinite" do not conflict.You cannot have an infinite number of finite things.
Proof?God exists outside of time, in Eternity.
We have already established that "time" is not a physical entity and does not exist outside of the human mind. A supernatural being's perceptions may not be bound by the same limitations as our own and therefore it may be a reasonable analogy to claim that such an entity is "outside of time", but it does not follow from this that such an entity has "created" time.God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him.
So you posit, but this cannot be proven. At best this is a working hypothesis which forms a small piece of your foundation.God is Eternal, not created.
We've covered this. "Time" is not a physical entity. Infinite regression is possible; it is only the author's lack of mathematical ability that leads him to his erroneous claim. Since, in number 3, we have shown that infinite regression is possible, the quote directly above becomes a false dichotomy and there is at least one other option, which is that the universe itself has existed for eternity.Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Originally posted by: actuarial
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
He doesn't even get that deep into it in the video. Did you watch it? He's just arguing the idea of something eternal that existed before space and time using already known facts about the universe. It doesn't have anything to do with a creator caring or not. I was hoping for arguments against the logic not troll like posts that have nothing to do with it.
Did you read my response? I had one line in it pertaining to God caring. The rest was about the logic used.
Example of equal logic:
1) Child doesn't understand why sky is blue
2) Child hypothesizes that sky is blue because someone painted it blue a long time ago. Something can't just BECOME blue, so something must have made it blue.
The child in this example actually understands MORE about the colour of the sky than we do about time and the universe.
You can't just narrowly define something to get around an explanation. In this case it's done by saying God is eternal. Why is it logical to say that God is eternal, but not logical to say the universe is eternal?
the idiot who wrote this nonsense claims that if the Earth and Mars were revolving around the sun for eternity (meaning forever or infinitely) then they both have done it the same amount of times (infinitely).Originally posted by: yllus
Isn't the very definition of an orbit "the (usually elliptical) path described by one celestial body in its revolution about another"? Admittedly I don't know squat about this, but if we're going to nitpick the "facts" he brings up, by his own admission the Earth has a tighter (shorter) orbit around the Sun than Mars does - thus Earth will have circled the Sun more than Mars has. And why is this "clearly impossible" anyways?Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).
At this point you should be suspecting whoever write this is an idiot. An idiot with a decent mastery of gobbledygook, but an idiot nonetheless.
Originally posted by: meltdown75
is this burning
an eternal flame
say my name
sun shines through the rain
a whole life... so lonely
and then you come and ease the pain
i don't want to lose this feeeeeeeling... ohhhhhhhhh
:music:
Originally posted by: Turin39789
I see you are new here.
Rule #48572 - Do not respond sincerely to anything Techboi says in one of his religious threads.
There's nothing inconsistent about an infinite collection of finite things. It is a fallacy to claim that a set must be finite because its members are finite sets.Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGKzH0F9c&NR=1
Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal.
So many fallacies right here, apart from the one repeated here that I identified previously.The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).
Infinity is not a number, per se, so it is not true that the number of revolutions for each planet must be equal after an infinite amount of time. The revolution count for each one doesn't suddenly "reach infinity" and then become equal to others that have also "reached infinity."Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.
Baseless and meaningless postulates.Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created.
When we talk about something "coming from nothing," what we're really saying is that it didn't "come from" anything. That isn't inconsistent; in fact it is exactly what people postulate about gods.Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible),
Eternal is defined as "existing for all time values," so time is eternal by definition.or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
Originally posted by: yllus
Isn't the very definition of an orbit "the (usually elliptical) path described by one celestial body in its revolution about another"? Admittedly I don't know squat about this, but if we're going to nitpick the "facts" he brings up, by his own admission the Earth has a tighter (shorter) orbit around the Sun than Mars does - thus Earth will have circled the Sun more than Mars has. And why is this "clearly impossible" anyways?Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible).
At this point you should be suspecting whoever write this is an idiot. An idiot with a decent mastery of gobbledygook, but an idiot nonetheless.