PSA: Dog/Cat Pet Owners

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
First off, I'm talking about cats. Maybe there's a difference, maybe there's not. I don't know.

Second, what real evidence is there that grain free isn't a fad? With all the fuss over grain, you would think our cats should weigh 15 pounds. They weigh about 10 pounds and have a healthy coat, so I have no evidence that they are not getting good food. If there is a brand of cat food about the same price as Science Diet (~$0.90 a 5.5 oz can) that is demonstratively better than Science Diet, please tell. All I see is theories over which ingredients are better than others with no medical/dietary evidence which is a lot like the latest health food trend. Yes, marketing got us to give our cats Science Diet, but marketing again is trying to get us to feed a different, much more expensive food.

Grain-free is hardly a 'fad'...

Science Diet is actually not a very good food for cats. A cat food should have meat as a primary ingredient not corn, wheat, or by-products.

Cat's do need grains, but they get them in the wild as pre-digested from their prey.

My cat's have to be on S/D as one gets crystals any other way. As a result they have all put on a little weight as they have to eat a lot more for the same nutrition.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
Hmm there are a lot of dogs and cats that end up with health problems due to the filler content, esp. ash.

Cats are more susceptable though.

So it lives a year or two less? I have both a cat and a dog and love em to death. But I'm not going crazy with the expensive $2/lb stuff. The $1 does fine.

One thing I was thinking: giving an egg a day to the dog and a sardine a day to the cat. That way I'll eat more of both, they're cheap, and provide real nutrients that chow does not. What do you think.
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
My trainer gives his german shepherds a raw food diet. It is actually as cheap or cheaper than medium quality dry food, but it is just a little extra work. I've been thinking about trying it.

Basically, you have 75% meat, 15% grains, 10% veggies (proportions vary depending on the dog). Meat consists of a raw whole chicken, beef, etc..., including bones. i.e. a toss a whole turkey drumstick into their bowl.

Grains and veggies should be cooked down into a mush to simulate pre-digested foods that the dog would get from the stomachs of their prey.


[FONT=&quot]The idea behind these recommendations is to provide a diet that approximates
that which dogs have evolved eating (and will still eat, given a choice). In
spite of the fact that they have traditionally been classified as
carnivores, dogs evolved as hunters and scavengers who will eat the whole
body of their prey, gorge themselves when food is present and go hungry
(fast) when it is not.

Therefore, these recommendations consider both the content of the diet and
the frequency of feeding.

A dog's natural diet includes both meat and vegetable matter.
On making a kill or finding a previously killed animal, the wild canid will
eventually consume the entire carcass. They begin by eating the contents of
the abdominal cavity ­ liver, stomach, intestines and their contents,
followed by the other organs in the abdomen and chest cavities. The last
part of the carcass the dog will eat is the muscle meat and bones, and
perhaps the hide and hooves. Dogs will also graze on herbs and wild plants,
seeking out specific types of plants.

This is the diet we are trying to imitate.

Healthy adult dogs should be fed once daily.
Your dog should have access to the food for 20-30 minutes, after which any
remaining food should be discarded. Nothing further should be given, except
water, until the next day. Once every 7-10 days healthy dogs should be
fasted for a day, receiving water or broth only.

These breaks between meals give the digestive tract time to fully process
the food, to rest and regenerate, to optimize enzyme formation, and to
cleanse before being asked to work again. By feeding once daily, we see that
our companions come to their meal hungry and will eat with gusto. The
periodic fasts mimic the feast and famine cycle of the wild canid.

This schedule should be tailored to the individual situation based on the
dog's age, health status, special needs and family schedule.

It is important to recognize that there is no single diet that meets the
needs of every dog. A good starting point is to divide the meal into three
food groups ­ meats, vegetables and grains ­ each group in equal volume.
Once the dog has been on this diet for a time, it can be fine-tuned for the
individual.

Dogs do vary, particularly in their needs for grains. Most individuals will
do well on a diet that is 40% meat, 40% ground or finely chopped vegetables
and 20% (or less) overcooked grain ­ with all components being measured by
volume.

The grain portion of the diet should be overcooked, enhancing their
digestibility and mimicking the partially digested grains found in the
stomach of the prey and the cooked/fermented grains found in scavenge. We
recommend cooking the grains at least twice as long as you normally would.
To do this you will have to add extra water. This will result in a mushy,
porridge-like consistency of the grain portion of the diet. Grain choices
include (but are not limited to) oatmeal, barley, wheat, millet, spelts,
quinoa, grits, bulgar, cous cous, rices and pastas. Whole and raw grains are
preferable to processed grains.

The vegetable portion may be raw, lightly steamed or sautéed, pureed, finely
chopped, ground or juiced (pulp and juice). The processing simulates partial
pre-digestion and is done to break down the plant fibres, making the
material more digestible to the dog. Vegetable choices vary with season and
availability. Fresh is better than frozen, and frozen better than canned.
Some options are carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, squash, zucchini, cabbage,
celery, parsley, yams, green beans, spinach, pumpkin, bell peppers,
tomatoes,Š. Fruit may be substituted for 10-15% of the vegetable portion.
Produce needs to be washed thoroughly to remove any pesticide and herbicide
residues.

The meat portion should be given raw or lightly cooked. A good balance of
meat over a period of a week includes one or two meals of ground or chopped
meat (beef, chicken, turkey, venison, pork,..), one meal of organ meat
(liver, kidneys, .. Though called organ meat, heart and gizzards are muscle
meats.), and the remainder of the meals of bony meat (chicken or turkey
necks, wings or backs, oxtails, whole Cornish hens or rabbits,Š.). The bony
meats should be given raw so that the bones will be soft, pliable and
digestible. Cooked bones may pose a health hazard for some dogs.

Cottage cheese, yoghurt, and eggs (raw or lightly cooked) may be substituted
for a portion of the meat.

Ingredients produced without chemicals and pesticides are optimal. However,
the lack of availability of such sources, organic or otherwise, should not
prohibit you from providing a fresh, whole food diet. Explore options such
as home grown products, farmers markets, direct purchases from family
farms,Š Fresh and whole foods, even from the supermarkets, are far superior
to any packaged and processed commercial food.

Supplementation of the diet might include 1-2 cloves of garlic, Vitamin C
(start with 500mg daily and increase to bowel tolerance), a vitamin/trace
mineral/digestive enzyme supplement recommended for dogs, and any special
needs supplements recommended by your veterinarian.
The liberal use of culinary herbs such as parsley, basil, thyme, and sage is
also encouraged.

In dogs who are not receiving raw nutritional bones, the Calcium: Phosphorus
balance of the meat portion of the diet must be corrected. To do so, add
1200 mg elemental calcium per pound (approximately two cups, measured as raw
meat) of boneless meat fed.

Many dogs (and their caregivers) may need to be introduced to this type of
diet slowly to allow their systems to adjust.

To begin feeding this diet, mix a small portion of vegetables, overcooked
grains and cooked ground meat with the usual diet, maintaining the same
total volume of food. Over a period of 7-10 days increase the home-prepared
portion and decrease the commercial portion. Once the dog is managing well
with a home-prepared, partially-cooked diet, make the transition to a
raw-based ration by decreasing cooking times over the next week until
everything except the grains are being given raw or lightly cooked. At this
point, if you are going to use them, you may start adding the bony meats to
the rotation. If you do not add bony meats, you must add Calcium based on
the amount of meat that is being fed.

As you increase the whole food portion of the diet, you will see changes in
your companion's appetite and relationship with food. S/he will come to the
meal more enthusiastically, may have fewer food cravings and seem more
satisfied on a smaller volume of food. As you monitor your companion's
response to this fresh and whole food diet, you may need to make adjustments
in the volume and proportion to achieve and maintain optimal condition for
the individual.

It is not unusual to see loose stools, or mucoid stools, as you make the
transition to a fresh and whole food diet. This happens as the body adjusts
to the new food and releases stored toxins from the system. Loose stools and
mucous should present no problem, as long as the dog remains bright and
active.

The only two hard and fast rules with this diet are variety and moderation.
As long as you keep this in mind, you will have your pet on a wholesome,
nutritious and balanced diet.[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

DougK62

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2001
8,035
6
81
These rankings are no surprise to me.

I was told by a respected dog breeder years ago to follow two rules when buying my dog food:
1) Don't buy from the vet or put much stock in his suggestions
2) If you can buy the food in Walmart (or similar stores) then it's shit

My family's dogs have never been better, and some recurring problems like rashes and poor coat cleared up completely.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
My dog only eats semi-moist food. She won't eat dry of any kind. I damn sure ain't gonna spend $60 on a bag of dry food for her to not eat it. I feed her Ol' Roy brand "Moist & Meaty", and she's very healthy, and has more energy than the energizer bunny.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Just feed the dog your left overs along with some raw meat/beef/chicken...Not sure why people waste money on dog food.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Just feed the dog your left overs along with some raw meat/beef/chicken...Not sure why people waste money on dog food.

because it doesn't cover all a dogs needs. Some breeds like my Cattle dog do fare well on even a poor 'people's' diet.
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
I used this site to decide to switch to Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance for our cat food. Made a huge difference in the health and coat of our oldest cat (we suspect he has a wheat allergy), and is cheaper than the lower quality Nutro Natural that I used to buy (though we were using Purina One for a while due to cost).
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
So it lives a year or two less? I have both a cat and a dog and love em to death. But I'm not going crazy with the expensive $2/lb stuff. The $1 does fine.

One thing I was thinking: giving an egg a day to the dog and a sardine a day to the cat. That way I'll eat more of both, they're cheap, and provide real nutrients that chow does not. What do you think.

Well it's not usually about just cutting off time at the end...it's about getting some pretty painful and dehabilitating diseases along the way.

If you are under the idea that a pet is just a replaceable item when they get sick then so be it. I tend to care for my pets.

My dog is having his 5th surgery this year which is another $650. 1 was his neuter, the next two dog bites due to some idiots bringign aggressive dogs to dog park and the other was another lump but unrelated to this one.

the egg and sardine idea aren't so good as neither is really part of either's natural diet.

To the other poster, a dog will eat cat food but will suffer from malnourishment if that's there only source of food. Dogs and cats have different 'formulas' used for produced foods.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
Man, we are feeding our dog one of the worst brands of dog food...I'm going to have to change her diet for the better.

Thanks for posting this, it was a real eye opener.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
I feed my dog dry avoderm. His coat is super money, and his shit is healthy looking. He was on Inova no grain before, but that made his shit way too hard.


About a dollar a pound from my local pet store.

http://www.avodermnatural.com/Dog_Foods/adult_cr.htm

Chicken Meal, Ground Whole Brown Rice, Ground Whole White Rice, Oatmeal, Rice Bran, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Avocado Meal, Flax Seed, Dried Alfalfa Meal, Avocado Oil, Herring Meal, Lecithin, Natural Flavor, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, a-Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid), Minerals (Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Manganous Sulfate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Iodate), Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Bromelain, Papain, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Product.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 23.00%
Crude Fat (min) 13.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 4.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Ash (max) 6.50%
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (min) 2.49%
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (min) 0.78%
Caloric Content
Metabolizable Energy (calculated) 360 kcal/cup
Metabolizable Energy (calculated) 3450 kcal/kg
 
Last edited:

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
To dispute what shorty is suggesting & the first paragraph in their FAQ: "As we’ve already noted, most dry pet foods are based on grains or other plant material. But the animals we’re feeding them to are carnivores and should be eating a diet that is mainly made up of meat"

Wrong.
Modern domesticated dogs have grown up alongside man, eating man's scraps for millenia.

A vast majority of modern domesticated dog breeds have only really existed for a short period of time, and many were the result of heavy, unhealthy breeding practices to accentuate certain features that were actually detrimental to the animal. These breeds probably have pretty different needs compared to the wolf-like companions of our ancient ancestors, who probably could handle a lot more robust food options. There are surely a lot of breeds of both domesticated cat and dog who ideally would be fed specialized diet because of their accentuated mutant features.

Anyway, neither the wolf-like ancient companion dogs nor the absurd-looking purebred dogs of worthlessness were bred to eat corn gluten meal, nor was corn gluten meal something that was a table scrap in ancient times. So I think you would agree with the basic premise of the low-rated foods being suspect. The higher-rated foods are, by your reasoning, not really that great either. I agree with that.
 

rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
Grain-free is hardly a 'fad'...

Science Diet is actually not a very good food for cats. A cat food should have meat as a primary ingredient not corn, wheat, or by-products.

Cat's do need grains, but they get them in the wild as pre-digested from their prey.

My cat's have to be on S/D as one gets crystals any other way. As a result they have all put on a little weight as they have to eat a lot more for the same nutrition.
What real evidence is there of this? Our cats are perfectly healthy so I see no evidence their diet is lacking.
 

aldamon

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2000
3,280
0
76
We've been feeding our dog California Natural for 7 years now. Incidentally, because of this thread, I found out that P&G just bought out Natura foods. Anyone that uses Innova, Evo, California Natural, Healthwise, Mother Nature and Karma food might want to think about switching. The brand is about be Eukanuba'd/Iams'd by P&G.
 
Last edited:

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
What real evidence is there of this? Our cats are perfectly healthy so I see no evidence their diet is lacking.

You keep asking about 'real evidence', have you even done any research?

Most think their cats are heathy as well...however; most cats are actually overweight if indoors and malnourished if outdoors.

The average cat is lucky to see a vet once a year.

People live on hotdogs out there, they probably think there is nothing better either; just more expensive.

Feeding a cat a high quality pet food is not that much more in cost. They should eat less so the product goes further.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
A vast majority of modern domesticated dog breeds have only really existed for a short period of time, and many were the result of heavy, unhealthy breeding practices to accentuate certain features that were actually detrimental to the animal. These breeds probably have pretty different needs compared to the wolf-like companions of our ancient ancestors, who probably could handle a lot more robust food options. There are surely a lot of breeds of both domesticated cat and dog who ideally would be fed specialized diet because of their accentuated mutant features.

Anyway, neither the wolf-like ancient companion dogs nor the absurd-looking purebred dogs of worthlessness were bred to eat corn gluten meal, nor was corn gluten meal something that was a table scrap in ancient times. So I think you would agree with the basic premise of the low-rated foods being suspect. The higher-rated foods are, by your reasoning, not really that great either. I agree with that.

QFT...there are many dogs that are more primitive in diet. Also 'dry dog food' doesn't scale at all to a people diet.

Yes you can feed your dog 'table scraps', but most of what people eat today don't qualify for the types of foods and preparation dogs grew up with along man.
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
You keep asking about 'real evidence', have you even done any research?

Most think their cats are heathy as well...however; most cats are actually overweight if indoors and malnourished if outdoors.

The average cat is lucky to see a vet once a year.

People live on hotdogs out there, they probably think there is nothing better either; just more expensive.

Feeding a cat a high quality pet food is not that much more in cost. They should eat less so the product goes further.

Skinny cats aren't as cute as fat cats though. Everyone loves laughing at the obese cat dragging its stomach around. :awe:
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
I used this site to decide to switch to Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance for our cat food. Made a huge difference in the health and coat of our oldest cat (we suspect he has a wheat allergy), and is cheaper than the lower quality Nutro Natural that I used to buy (though we were using Purina One for a while due to cost).

Thanks for the link, going to try out Chicken Soup since it's just about the same price as Purina One.
 

thescreensavers

Diamond Member
Aug 3, 2005
9,930
2
81
I used this site to decide to switch to Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance for our cat food. Made a huge difference in the health and coat of our oldest cat (we suspect he has a wheat allergy), and is cheaper than the lower quality Nutro Natural that I used to buy (though we were using Purina One for a while due to cost).


That site generally has a similar review as the one I got in the OP.

People can take that how ever they like. I think its a great resource
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |