PSU Purchasing Guide-----Revision 1.6

[Operandi]

Hah, you are nuts. , PM sent.

The PSU I linked to is probably a good enough unit but that has nothing to do with Raidmax. Luckily Topower made it so it is probably fairly decent build quality, but it's still pretty poorly designed based on what I read in the SPCR review, they say so themselves so it's not just my opinion.

Did you happen to notice it's labeled as 520 watt unit when it's true max power is 465, that?s a sure sign of quality :roll:. Also keep in mind the PSU is unable to cool itself under full load. I don't care that nobody uses 465 watts; if a it?s rated for 465 watts it should be able to sustain it but it can't. Nothing about this PSU says quality to me...., pointless bling, weak 12v rail, poor thermal performance, no PFC at all, for $96 (market price) you can get much better.

 

[jonnyGURU]

I'm sure you've already read my review on the power supply I'm about to send you:

http://www.slcentral.com/raidmax-rx-520xp-psu/page8.php

Oh wait.. No you haven't. You only read what you want to believe.

Seriously though, I admit that 469W is the most I could get out of it.

I'm aware of what the label says. But God knows how many power supplies out there are guilty of the same thing. Unfortuantely, "Maximum Power" for a lot of companies is the sum of the capability of all of the rails combined (at 25C.) So if you could fully load each rail to it's maximum, which is impossible, it would be 520W.

I don't support that means of "false advertising," but I also don't think it's fair to single out Raidmax as being the only ones that do that.

The OCZ Powerstream 520W suffers the same fate. It's actually the same power supply. What a piece of crap that thing is (read sarcasm.) The Tagan 480W is the same too. It's just nice to see that they don't feel the need to label the PSU as a "520W."

Pointless bling? Opinion.

Weak 12V rail? 18A is better than a lot out there and it held 20A for me for an hour. Even at 18A, that's easily an A64 with SLI under load.

Poor thermal performance? I've already touched on that. I guess you didn't read my post.

No PFC at all? Sorry. I don't live in Europe. It does average 73% efficiency. That's good for me. Screw the power company.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Jonny you know as well as i do that while TOPOWER makes both of those PSU's the OCZ is much higher quality. Additionally it can sustain 620Watt for a while.

That Raidmax while still made by TOPOWER is crap. Even though no one would really use that much power it is still rated for that much and you still pay for that one. Think the Tagan 480 or the OCZ 420 both of which are ~ the same price are WAY better. Both can sustain well above their labeled maximum.

The Raidmax for 96 is the most overpriced the biggest crap out there. I mean i would buy an ultra over raidmax. I would buy Tt over Raidmax.

I trust your judgement and i know that you have extensive knowledge on this matter however you are arguing a moot point.

-Kevin

 

[jonnyGURU]

Kevin,

First off, you need to differentiate "build quality" from "more power." I think that's where you and I are clashing. We're using the same word, "quality", to describe two different things. For Topower to make a power supply "more powerful" they do not use "better quality" components. They use components of different values, but they are typically of the same quality and the assembly of those components, from what I've seen between OCZ, Tagan and Raidmax, does not vary.

I do admit that I mis-spoke. For some reason I was thinking the 520 was a single-rail 12V PSU. Obviously it's not. But I took apart my OCZ 420 and 470 and the Raidmax actually is "better quality," as you would put it. All of the components are of a higher values in the Raidmax. Take the two big caps on the AC side of the PSU, for example. They're 200V 1200uF in the Raidmax and they're "only" 1000uF in the OCZ's (of course, they could be 800uF and work just fine.) The heatsinks are also larger in the Raidmax.

Now I do have to do some back-pedaling because I mis-spoke. I was at work when I posted and didn't have the PSU's in front of me. I came home and took apart my 520ADJ and the "transformers" (what they're actually called escapes me right now) are larger in order to provide more power and there is a couple more VR's coming off the board (obviously, as it's a dual 12V rail PSU) and the heatsinks that those VR's are attached to are larger (more VR's = more heat, therefore bigger heatsinks would be par for the course.) But still.... Better QUALITY? No. Same "quality." Same brand components, same gage wires, same caps on the AC side, same type of PCB, same quality of solder joints..... Same.

So, yes the OCZ 520ADJ provides more power for $50 more than the Raidmax. But I'm going to stand on what I said about Raidmax's "quality." It's just as good quality as anything with the OCZ name on it. Ditto with Tagan.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Oh... And I do want your address. I'll send you an Ultra PSU. I would've sent you a Thermaltake, but that wouldn't prove anything and the only one I had blew up. Man! That thing looked pretty, but... you want to talk about inferior "quality" in both the way I use the word AND the way you use the word? Yeech!!!

 

[jonnyGURU]

Oh.. and I want to clarify something.. I'm not saying that if you have $100 to spend on a power supply, the Raidmax is the right power supply for you. I just think the terms "quality" and "crap" are being thrown around to loosly.

In fact, I bought the Raidmax because it had all of the buzz words: "bigger caps" and "bigger heat sinks." But when I found I was getting just as much power out of an Ultra 400W for half as much money (yeah, I'm still Ultra's bitch) I decided the Raidmax wasn't for me.

Sure the Raidmax is almost silent and the temps stay nice and cool after shut down, but my builds don't go where they need to be especially quiet and they run 24/7 so the Radimax's "ECASO" system didn't matter to me.

And although I felt the Raidmax didn't get "too hot," I do my builds in mid-towers or 4U rackmount cases where there isn't a lot of airflow to begin with. Couple that with the fact that those builds usually end up inside cabinets or on top of PBX's in a tiny little phone room, I didn't want to chance something overheating.

So that's why I have a Raidmax to give to Operandi and I've got Ultra's because I got comp'd units from both Ultra and SED and since they are coming out with new models, I have even more coming.

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
I'm not making a direct comparison. I'm making a comparison based on the focus of Operandi's weak argument.

The PCP&C Turbo-Cool provides MORE power and more stable power, no doubt. But when it comes to heat, the PCP&C Turbo-Cool runs hotter than almost any other. That may have no effect on the PSU itself, but it can certainly have an effect on the rest of your system. The fan on a PCP&C is also very loud. I'm thinking, if you're going to have a loud fan, at least make it move some air so the PSU isn't so damn hot.

_____

I didn't want to get in on this one, but... I can't help it.

"I've seen one motherboard last five years because it was built up in a PC that was well thought out, and I've seen the same motherboard come back after six months because it was hooked up to a cheap power supply "

Boy can I ever second that comment you made above. Good case with flow and a PC/Power/Cool supply, well almost nothing comes back, rates climb as you slowly move into lower quality very fast.

"I have to find the happy medium between quality and price. I can't put a $200 power supply in every build but on that same note, with 15% margins, I can't afford to have RMA rates higher than 2%."

Well, you can get PCP&C supplies wholesale under $50 each, medium yes so hard and its a forced issue since the big markers go so dam cheap on systems and people think you should give them your better box at the cheap price and refuse to accept less from us.

Now how in the hell do you guys still make 15% margin! come on, is that truth, to make 5 to 8% is a hard task nowadays & techs where I have worked get let go when RMA climbs to 2% even!

"The Internet is funny. It's full of opinions. What pisses me off is when opinions aren't based on facts"

I second that - but fact is PCP&C really don't make more heat since they make cleaner and more power with less loss - HOWEVER, they don't focus on heat removal like many others which can lead to hotter temps if you case flow is only so so.

Ok Fan noise, this comment tells me you also do NOT have all the products talked about here (hell I have not either - many of them but not all), the quiet series from PCP&C are very, I mean VERY quiet and still a great PS - ok I will admit the turbo cool, they are loud to me, I think they sound like a jet, but I know some people that don't see that as a problem - anyways they make some db's for sure.

Labels don't tell it all on PS. Many ways to look at it. A single rail without any other power draw on any other rails may put out big numbers - add them all up and thats how you get way over rated numbers since in real we draw power from many or all rails at once. This is a sales tatic for Antec, as they provide some connections with their own indepentant rails - now as you see in some PCP&C flyers they too have their faults... so their is good cause for some great reviews to test supplies under true load as we would all use them.

Start asking people with great PS how many lock ups, blue screens and HW failures - you'll find they are few compared to other with cheap PS - maybe a great post would be what supplies you have and what troubles etc...

I will admit I didn't read all your posts here yet, just my 2 cents so far...

 

[jonnyGURU]

Umm.... Maybe you DO need to read my posts instead of skimming.

I was ONLY commenting on the Turbo-Cool PCP&C. Yes, you can get a PCP&C for less $$$, but the Silencer is really nothing much more than a rebranded FSP/SPI power supply. A VERY GOOD power supply, but not the same as a Turbo-Cool. The Turbo-Cool is much more powerful, but also DOES run hotter and IS noisier. I didn't say that the Silencer wasn't quiet and ran cool. We never even brought up the Silencer. Only the Turbo-Cool.

And true that PCP&C doesn't focus on heat removal, but IF YOU READ MY POST I was only using the Turbo-Cool as a means to discredit the argument that the Raidmax wasn't a good power supply simply because it ran hot under maximum load. And that takes me back to relative comparisons. What's the actual load to be applied? What enviroment is the power supply going to be used in? What kind of case?

And your argument that they don't produce more heat because they're more efficient? They're pretty efficient, but LIKE I SAID under the SAME LOAD as applied to the Raidmax, the Turbo-Cool ran HOTTER. The PCP&C might be more efficient, but I'm not measuring power on the AC side using a freaking Kill-A-Watt. I'm measuring power on the DC side with an actual PSU tester! And I'm sorry, but 20A on the 12V DC side is still 20A on the 12V no matter HOW efficient a power supply is.

What's funny is you try to tell me I'm wrong about them getting hot and being loud and then AGREE WITH ME that they sound like a jet engine?!?! WTF?!?

I think what really set me off was this comment: "you also do NOT have all the products talked about here..."

I've NEVER come to Anandtech to pimp my own company (well.. not MY company, but the one I work for) or even pimp my own website (alright... it's in my sig) or SLCentral, but if you're going to call me a LIAR you should at least have the common decency to look at the first page of my website where there's this picture from my dining room: http://www.jonnyguru.com/images/psu_pile.jpg.. and that's just what was sitting on my FLOOR! Please note the Turbo-Cool in the upper-right. Note the Raidmax on the top in the center. There's one OCZ on the right. Not sure where the other two are hiding. I see an Antec on top of the Mad Dog to the left. Looks like the Powmax missed the photo shoot. No big loss, right?

Anyways... I do believe that the PSU's in that picture alone is a healthy representation of MOST of the power supplies here. At least the ones I've taken the liberty to comment on because, unlike 99% of the people here, I don't care to comment on things I know nothing about.

Quit pretending you think you know who I am. You're not even close. You wouldn't want me to do the same becuase all that's coming to my mind right now is "Geek Squad."

 

[jonnyGURU]

Oh.. and as for your final, smart-ass laced comment:

Start asking people with great PS how many lock ups, blue screens and HW failures - you'll find they are few compared to other with cheap PS - maybe a great post would be what supplies you have and what troubles etc...

What about the people with crappy boards? Crappy heat sinks? Drives that they dropped because they were riding along in the back seat of their car until they slammed on their brakes? Believe me. I've got tons of these kinds of stories: http://www.jonnyguru.com And the photos to go with the stories: http://www.jonnyguru.com/mishaps

What supplies do I have and what troubles? Umm... None, because I don't use crap power supplies. What about power supply problems with the builds I do? None. Again, I don't use crap power supplies. Probably the cheapest power supply in my arsenal is an FSP300. In fact, the only problems I've had over the last couple years is failed hard drives (about a 2% RMA rate.) If you have techs that have a 2% or greater failure rate when they're responsible for the components they use from box to build, then they DESERVE to be fired. You and I both know that an industry norm for any (quality) part if handled and installed correctly is LESS THAN 1%.

Of course, I'm not at all accounting for machines that OTHER PEOPLE around me (customers, co-workers, etc.) build, but that's because most people go their own course or do stupid things without seeking out advice first. C'est la vie. They learn eventually. You can lead a horse to water, but if you beat them senseless it's considered animal abuse. What can you do?

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Umm.... Maybe you DO need to read my posts instead of skimming.

I was ONLY commenting on the Turbo-Cool PCP&C. Yes, you can get a PCP&C for less $$$, but the Silencer is really nothing much more than a rebranded FSP/SPI power supply. A VERY GOOD power supply, but not the same as a Turbo-Cool. The Turbo-Cool is much more powerful, but also DOES run hotter and IS noisier. I didn't say that the Silencer wasn't quiet and ran cool. We never even brought up the Silencer. Only the Turbo-Cool.

And true that PCP&C doesn't focus on heat removal, but IF YOU READ MY POST I was only using the Turbo-Cool as a means to discredit the argument that the Raidmax wasn't a good power supply simply because it ran hot under maximum load. And that takes me back to relative comparisons. What's the actual load to be applied? What enviroment is the power supply going to be used in? What kind of case?

And your argument that they don't produce more heat because they're more efficient? They're pretty efficient, but LIKE I SAID under the SAME LOAD as applied to the Raidmax, the Turbo-Cool ran HOTTER. The PCP&C might be more efficient, but I'm not measuring power on the AC side using a freaking Kill-A-Watt. I'm measuring power on the DC side with an actual PSU tester! And I'm sorry, but 20A on the 12V DC side is still 20A on the 12V no matter HOW efficient a power supply is.

What's funny is you try to tell me I'm wrong about them getting hot and being loud and then AGREE WITH ME that they sound like a jet engine?!?! WTF?!?

I think what really set me off was this comment: "you also do NOT have all the products talked about here..."

I've NEVER come to Anandtech to pimp my own company (well.. not MY company, but the one I work for) or even pimp my own website (alright... it's in my sig) or SLCentral, but if you're going to call me a LIAR you should at least have the common decency to look at the first page of my website where there's this picture from my dining room: http://www.jonnyguru.com/images/psu_pile.jpg.. and that's just what was sitting on my FLOOR! I do believe that the PSU's in that picture alone is a healthy representation of MOST of the power supplies here. At least the ones I've taken the liberty to comment on because, unlike 99% of the people here, I don't care to comment on things I know nothing about.

Good night.

Wow a bit on the defence are we... PCP&C supplies all come from the same supplier no matter what model - all-be-it different specs... (no more all USA baby from them) - still they demand much better OEM product than almost everybody. The newer silencer, they worried me but have proved VERY good supplies in use, still I would LOVE to see them put in a review (fair as you have been talking of here) against others since they ARE priced even to the end user at a ok price.

I think you blew past by post a bit much, yes of course I was backing most of what you posted - although a bit careful on all the facts.

Look, if someone here is trying to drill home what is it, the raidmax better than the turbo cool over and over, why bother with them, you know the facts, posted them, if they just can't get it, well let it go, you know better and those of us who are perhaps a bit more of the tech mind will know the truth also.

Your power supply pile it nothing compared to a internet company (plus system builder) selling many many brands - doesn't impress me sorry. I think you can and have made some good point - just a touch less temper is all I'm thinking for my taste, hey just me though... (99% of them is still not 100%) - if your in the business, you know many of these brands are nothing but cheap at that and many are made from the SAME comany OEM and a sticker added later... Not something we should be posting here all the details of (at least if we want some of these companies to keep doing business with us).

Heat, it would seem to reason if the same system with PCP&C supply and another that if the case does NOT have good air flow byitself, well the PCP&C most likely WILL run hotter, as we both agree, great PS, less focus on cooling the system, although - YES I DO AGREE, many things change this. Bring your system to my house, good chance everything WILL change some at least (heat, power etc...).

Hey by the way, the little tech on your site, looks as though good work is being done...

You still can test diffent supplies in the same system in the same room and get some results that are close to a fair compare - more-so in a controlled clean room.

Do me a favor if you would, post in your findings your personal top 10 supplies in ranking - money no object and when money is a object what do you pick -

May I also add, we had carried SeaSonic PS a short bit, sold a pallet or so (little more maybe) - everyone - I mean one came back RMA, have you worked with these PS and found the same? Whats more they not good about RMA with us either.


I need to add I looked at your reviews at your site now also - dude my smart ass comment, dude, you already know about stupid people and the odd things they do - even cheap MB's and such do soooo much better in a good case with a great PS - not sure how you find my comment as a smart ass comment, if you really do, I could have lots of fun pissing you off here as I have much more where that comes from.

HHD's - IBM hurt the RMA thats for sure, maybe just us. We have not so good luck with maxtors either - seagates do good as well as WD for us.

In your review all PS tested on the bench and NOT in a case? If on the bench, you found PCP&C to run hotter still (I know more power etc... it should a bit, but) or was that not addressed in your reviews at this time?

P.S I say beat them ALL!!!

 

[jonnyGURU]

Ok. I've settled with a beer a bit.

I do realize you were agreeing with me for the most part, but in some parts you were sounding like you were calling me a liar and that just doesn't float with me no matter who it's coming from.

Yeah, I try a little too hard to drill home a point, but that's just me. If people don't listen, they're just stupid and I'm afraid I have a little more faith in the human race in a whole then to dismiss most of them as stupid.

True, the pile could be any dealer's inventory or what not. My point was this is the pile I've accumulated from being comp'd demo product from distributors or manufacturers and every last one of them gets opened up and loaded up using that SunMoon you saw on my website. I also make observations like heat, noise... I don't just do it for reviews. The reviews are just the accummulation of the notes I take for myself. I end up with so much data at the end of looking at each power supply, why not write a review?

And I don't know if you're "testing" me with the "top 10" question. I'm afraid to rank power supply simply because it's such a subjective comparison.

Obviously, if money is no object that cuts out a big chunk, but I'm certainly not going to include power supplies that I don't have personal experience with either. I wouldn't want to impose my opinions on others. I would only want to offer my personal experience in an effort to help choose the appropriate power supply. There's also so many variables. Heat, noise, etc. Like, overall I would say the best power supply, money no object, is the Turbo-Cool. Right? I gave it the highest rating at SLCentral and I said that if I had the modular cable version, I'd probably give it a 10. But I don't have one in my PC. It's too loud and the ambient heat off of it causes the rest of my PC to run hotter. Seriously. So I have an Ultra X-Finity 600W in mine. It's almost as much power (that's funny. My 600W is almost as much power as a 510W. ) and runs cooler. Plus there's the added bonus of the blue LED's and side window.

I just won't rank them. Can't do it. I'll rate them on a scale from 1 to 10 and I'll give you pros and cons, but I'm not going to rank them.

As for Seasonic: Never had a run in with them. Kind of funny you had that high of a failure rate with them. Not sure what to make of that. "Bad batch?" Seriously, if they are inherently that bad, I can't see how a company can stay in business. Even when I used Allied power supplies (350W) nearly two years ago, my RMA rate was only about 3 or 4% and those are pretty crappy power supply in the grand scheme of things.

 

[jonnyGURU]

I just saw your edit:

Those PSU's were run OUTSIDE OF THE CASE and YES, the PCP&C was STILL hotter (temps were taken from inside with a CompuNurse glued to the heatsinks.) It was even hotter still inside my case!! Rock solid rails, but my CPU temps went up 5 degrees!!

And the reason your "smart ass" comment pissed me off is because it sounded like you were saying >> I << had problems with crashing, blue screens, etc. because of crappy power supplies. So my take was "WTF do you know about what >> I << use???"

Back to the "crappy case w/ crappy PSU, blah blah blah..." Here's where that analogy came from:

We used to build a barebones using a Biostar motherboard (forget the model) in an Apex case with an Allied 350W power supply. On the bench, we'd only have a 1% RMA rate. Over a year's time, we'd eventually only get about 3 or 4% back.

We had one "reseller" that would buy parts from us to make his own barebones. He didn't use our case or power supply though. He used some case that had no fan at all. Ours at least had one case fan in it. He also used this 300W power supply that was even cheaper than Allied/Deer. SO HELP ME GOD if you didn't think there was anything cheaper than Allied/Deer, think again! He would come back every four to six months with motherboards with swollen caps. The exact same boards we used. His RMA rate on those motherboards was about 20% over a six month period. And he was stupid enough to blame the MOTHERBOARD?! Dude! Try to think outside of the box. It's NOT the motherboard. After about a year of swapping out pretty much 80% of the boards he bought from us, I told him I wasn't going to RMA any more motherboards unless he started buying the cases and/or power supplies from us. He told me that I couldn't do that, but fact of the matter is we never really "implied" ANY warranty of our own on any product. We only handled the manufacturer's warranty for the customer as a courtesy. I told him he needed to start returning his boards directly to Biostar. We never saw him again after that. Not even to buy anything. I didn't miss him at all.

EDIT: Hard drives: Agreed. I only use Seagate now. I only had two RMA's in the last two years out of about 500 drives. I'm getting away from WD's. The Seagates have me spoiled. My RMA rate is only about 3 or 4%, but clearly if the Seagates cost less and don't come back as often.... which one am I making more profit on?

 

[cm123]

I think we still have a few of them hanging around yet (seasonics) that are bad. We hung onto the ones that run yet but are bad - when all is quiet, we find ways to makem burn...

I thought the same, can't be all of them bad, we had a mix from 3 batches/lots. All of them went in systems with Intel MB's and Mushkin ram (only common points) - loved the cost, loved the noise levels hated the product in the end - love to see them added to your reviews - if we have a good one left hanging out, I would give it to you for test and of course NOT to send back...

PS are a hard item when you system build, the price mix, trying to explain to people why they want to spend just a very small amount more in this area is hard too. We found making less margin with better parts in the end makes more $$$ - less RMA, less support - other than stupid people troubles (SPT).

Are you close to posting the Antec NEO details? We wish that supply was just $25 less Wholesale - we would sell the heck out of it then...

 

[drpootums]

BTW, u guys that are arguing, take it easy and please keep it "nice". I dont wanna get this guide i worked hard on locked by the mods ...

 

[jonnyGURU]

Oh.. and I'm not sure all PCP&C's are made by FSP/SPI. I just can't see where a Turbo-Cool is an FSP/SPI. They're like night and day. Of course, I could be completely worng. I'm willing to admit that.

And 99% doesn't have to be 100%. I know I type long sentences and big paragraphs, but you need to slow down the skimming a little. I was saying that I have 99% of what's talked about here. It's not 100%. But the other 1%, I just don't comment on! Someone asks me, "Hey! What do you think of Seasonic?" and I'll answer, "I have no clue. Never even seen one, but there's this cm123 cat on Anandtech that has a 100% RMA rate with them. Talk to him."

 

[jonnyGURU]

I'll take a supposedly good Seasonic for one of mine (one I didn't blow up.) How about..... I got a bunch of these ePower's made by Topower sitting here. Some company called "PCMCIS" (???) wants me to carry their stuff. I'd be willing to do a trade.

The Antec review might come up in the next couple weeks. I have to run the SunMoon tester in a different mode to do dual-rail power supplies so I decided to get all of the single rail PSU's out of the way first. I'm writing up the A.C. Ryan this weekend, will do the Mad Dog this upcoming week and then I'll hit the Antec and OCZ.

I did do a prelimenary test on the Antec if you're interested. Didn't do a zero load or full load, but I tested it up to 489W and it was rock solid, fairly quiet, a little hot and had a PF of 99 and efficienct of 73%. Too bad the cables are ugly as sin. *shudder* Sorry. The X-Connect has me spoiled.

And drpootums: We are keeping it nice! STFU!!!!!

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
I just saw your edit:

Those PSU's were run OUTSIDE OF THE CASE and YES, the PCP&C was STILL hotter (temps were taken from inside with a CompuNurse glued to the heatsinks.) It was even hotter still inside my case!! Rock solid rails, but my CPU temps went up 5 degrees!!

And the reason your "smart ass" comment pissed me off is because it sounded like you were saying >> I << had problems with crashing, blue screens, etc. because of crappy power supplies. So my take was "WTF do you know about what >> I << use???"

Back to the "crappy case w/ crappy PSU, blah blah blah..." Here's where that analogy came from:

We used to build a barebones using a Biostar motherboard (forget the model) in an Apex case with an Allied 350W power supply. On the bench, we'd only have a 1% RMA rate. Over a year's time, we'd eventually only get about 3 or 4% back.

We had one "reseller" that would buy parts from us to make his own barebones. He didn't use our case or power supply though. He used some case that had no fan at all. Ours at least had one case fan in it. He also used this 300W power supply that was even cheaper than Allied/Deer. SO HELP ME GOD if you didn't think there was anything cheaper than Allied/Deer, think again! He would come back every four to six months with motherboards with swollen caps. The exact same boards we used. His RMA rate on those motherboards was about 20% over a six month period. And he was stupid enough to blame the MOTHERBOARD?! Dude! Try to think outside of the box. It's NOT the motherboard. After about a year of swapping out pretty much 80% of the boards he bought from us, I told him I wasn't going to RMA any more motherboards unless he started buying the cases and/or power supplies from us. He told me that I couldn't do that, but fact of the matter is we never really "implied" ANY warranty of our own on any product. We only handled the manufacturer's warranty for the customer as a courtesy. I told him he needed to start returning his boards directly to Biostar. We never saw him again after that. Not even to buy anything. I didn't miss him at all.

EDIT: Hard drives: Agreed. I only use Seagate now. I only had two RMA's in the last two years out of about 500 drives. I'm getting away from WD's. The Seagates have me spoiled. My RMA rate is only about 3 or 4%, but clearly if the Seagates cost less and don't come back as often.... which one am I making more profit on?

We used BCM sometime ago - (both biostar & BCM came from a lite-on plant for some time) - when we switched (on the cheap side) to a case with no PS and added sparkle - RMA's went from 4%ish 1 year to 1.85% on MB.

We have thought about handling the warranty for clients vs. sending them to manufacturer, but your point is so correct. People cause so many of their own RMA's (heat from cheap case.PS with the new P4's as a example) the thought just kills us.

We have been having great luck with Epox MB qualtiy for some time now.

HDD's - if not for the WD Raptor - would only use SG

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
I'll take a supposedly good Seasonic for one of mine (one I didn't blow up.) How about..... I got a bunch of these ePower's made by Topower sitting here. Some company called "PCMCIS" (???) wants me to carry their stuff. I'd be willing to do a trade.

The Antec review might come up in the next couple weeks. I have to run the SunMoon tester in a different mode to do dual-rail power supplies so I decided to get all of the single rail PSU's out of the way first. I'm writing up the A.C. Ryan this weekend, will do the Mad Dog this upcoming week and then I'll hit the Antec and OCZ.

I did do a prelimenary test on the Antec if you're interested. Didn't do a zero load or full load, but I tested it up to 489W and it was rock solid, fairly quiet, a little hot and had a PF of 99 and efficienct of 73%. Too bad the cables are ugly as sin. *shudder* Sorry. The X-Connect has me spoiled.

And drpootums: We are keeping it nice! STFU!!!!!

No trade needed if we have a couple good left, I would love to see them tested, maybe see why or what the trouble could be and provide a good review both as I always see posts here about people wanting to buy them...

I wish all supplies would come pre-wraped! Looks better and so much faster build time having clean easy cables to route and manage.

Antec interest me much, (as you can see) I'm a big PCP&C fan, this Antec product (NEO) must come very close to match or exceeding them. We have only put about 70 out in systems - 0 rma although so far.

I will check stock on Seasonic - I pretty sure we have 1 or 2 left we just didn't want to sell. Let me know how to get them to you and I will make that happen.

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Oh.. and I'm not sure all PCP&C's are made by FSP/SPI. I just can't see where a Turbo-Cool is an FSP/SPI. They're like night and day. Of course, I could be completely worng. I'm willing to admit that.

And 99% doesn't have to be 100%. I know I type long sentences and big paragraphs, but you need to slow down the skimming a little. I was saying that I have 99% of what's talked about here. It's not 100%. But the other 1%, I just don't comment on! Someone asks me, "Hey! What do you think of Seasonic?" and I'll answer, "I have no clue. Never even seen one, but there's this cm123 cat on Anandtech that has a 100% RMA rate with them. Talk to him."

PCP&C, they most all come from the same plant in china (the markings inside the unit). What I do know I just don't have that warm fuzzy feeling of posting here on this subject...

On the smart ass comment, not even where I was going at all - I was again adding support to your claim of what a low qualtiy PS does to RMA - system running poorly etc...

Wanted to clear the air on that since really not at all what I was saying - I guess the only hidden things in my words still would be if some people just can't get the facts, well I'm for a stupid people list on your site and lets add them ALL their becaues we can...

I'm always a bit concerned by reviewers on the ad bucks they may get from companies skew their reviews I should add... I don't see that in your reviews. I hope it stays that way.

Our company even gets temped from the giants and thier power... and yes I agree, PCP&C and fsp/spi, if I where to comment, my money would be on Antec OEM and theirs being somewhat of the same... although the one thing I have learned, a OEM can make almost anything one asks for if they pay for it.... or not.

 

[jonnyGURU]

The Antec close to the PCP&C.... eeehhhhh eeerrrr... hmmmm.....

The Antec Neo-Power did run a little hot and I'm not sure if I'll be able to juice it up as high as either the PCP&C or Ultra 600W. Only torture... err... I mean.. time will tell.

If I was bigger on the idea of dual-rails and the modular cables weren't so ass ugly (yes. I'd rather NOT have modular cables then use the Antec's Neo Power) I would consider the Antec Neo-Power. One thing is for sure, from what little I've seen from the Antec so far, I would DEFINITELY put it at the top of the list for stability. Going from 370W to 489W, the 12V only dropped from 12.14 to 12.1V, the 5V dropped from 5.07 to 5.05 and the 3.3V only dropped from 3.32V to 3.3V. THAT'S good. I can't wait to see what happens when I put about 600W or more to it.

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
The Antec close to the PCP&C.... eeehhhhh eeerrrr... hmmmm.....

The Antec Neo-Power did run a little hot and I'm not sure if I'll be able to juice it up as high as either the PCP&C or Ultra 600W. Only torture... err... I mean.. time will tell.

If I was bigger on the idea of dual-rails and the modular cables weren't so ass ugly (yes. I'd rather NOT have modular cables then use the Antec's Neo Power) I would consider the Antec Neo-Power. One thing is for sure, from what little I've seen from the Antec so far, I would DEFINITELY put it at the top of the list for stability. Going from 370W to 489W, the 12V only dropped from 12.14 to 12.1V, the 5V dropped from 5.07 to 5.05 and the 3.3V only dropped from 3.32V to 3.3V. THAT'S good. I can't wait to see what happens when I put about 600W or more to it.

Line quality test compared... ummm Antec sim to PCP&C in some ways... OEM that makes dual & single rails??? Antec not all are dual railed.

I have odd ?'s on dual railed, example: If another rail is drawing heavy and the dual rail to another device is putting forth full power, could that cause more issues since devices by nature of design are made for the single rail? Wouldn't that leave open for lags on some devices or the MB while not on others and is the design of system parts made to handle this new happening, I mean in normal when draw is heavy, it pulls down everything, not that is good neither - hard to find the words I'm thinking for this exact topic...

Yes NEO cabling does get a bit much, I like not having all the cables if not needed, but its not right yet neither for sure - in fact many cases it makes more of a mess than not...

 

[jonnyGURU]

Yeah. I plan to test that very thing when I get into testing the dual rail PSU's. See, I can load the two rails independently. I load the 12V1 through the drive molexes and 12V2 through the 2x2 connector. I'll let you know what I find out.

As for modular cables: I guess I'm just used to tucking extra cables in up over the PSU in that little gap between the PSU and the top of the case. If the goal is to make a PSU LOOK GOOD, don't do the job half ass.

That's about it for me today. I'm going to bed.

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Yeah. I plan to test that very thing when I get into testing the dual rail PSU's. See, I can load the two rails independently. I load the 12V1 through the drive molexes and 12V2 through the 2x2 connector. I'll let you know what I find out.

As for modular cables: I guess I'm just used to tucking extra cables in up over the PSU in that little gap between the PSU and the top of the case. If the goal is to make a PSU LOOK GOOD, don't do the job half ass.

That's about it for me today. I'm going to bed.

2nd that

 

[drpootums]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
And drpootums: We are keeping it nice! STFU!!!!!

Ok, that's fine, i just didnt want the whole calling each other "smart asses", etc. to get outta hand. I've seen many a posts take a turn for the worst, and i dont want it to be this one!

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: drpootums

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
And drpootums: We are keeping it nice! STFU!!!!!

Ok, that's fine, i just didnt want the whole calling each other "smart asses", etc. to get outta hand. I've seen many a posts take a turn for the worst, and i dont want it to be this one!

We did it just to be sure we got you concerned, no really text just got a bit twisted from the meaning in quick typing...

I do side with jonnyguru although - there is a difference between listing our favs vs. real tested facts (based on the test method used) on what product is ghe best or scores the highest...