PSU quality

[arsta]

I know that the PSUs that come with PC cases suck. Badly. But how bad do they suck, really? If you aren't going to overclock and not gonna push the wattage (single GPU, with a 750W cheap case PSU for example), is it really that bad? I've seen many run for years, even for 24/7 use. What's up with all that?

 

[Sleepingforest]

Let me put it this way: they are usable. But all too often you get a PSU like this. Why take the risk of frying your components or starting a fire when a good PSU that can actually deliver what it promises is about $20 more (plus you can typically get a higher quality case if you don't get a PSU with it).

There are some units, like an Antec or a Silverstone that can be trusted when bundled with a case because those two manufacturers are putting in good quality PSUs (and they do sell those PSUs on the side). But stay clear of garbage like Logisys, Diablotek, and the like.

 

[Zap]

It is not true that they all suck. For instance Antec puts decent PSUs into their cases, and generally speaking so does Silverstone, Lian Li and some other companies who bundle PSUs with cases.

The thing with wattage requirements is that they are generally overstated. That is good, as one thing that makes a PSU "crappy" is the inability to put out the power they claim on the label. This is how you end up with systems running for years on a "crappy" PSU, because it really didn't need all that much power.

Take a look at this "crappy PSU" review. While it may not be indicative of all "crappy" PSUs, it is one example. You can see by all the graphs that it actually does quite well up through test #4, resulting in the reviewer calling it a 350W PSU. Why call it "crappy?" Well, the label claims that it is a 550W PSU with a max power of 631W. Say what?

Actually, for a "crappy" PSU that one was really nice. This one isn't as nice. Claimed 500W, but barely made it to 220W with out of spec ripple and lousy efficiency. Wow!

Compare those to this PSU which put out every single watt that the label claimed, at great efficiency and low ripple. That is considered excellent by all measures.

Then there is this unit which put out all claimed power, but just missed efficiency claims of 80Plus Gold. Is it "crappy?" I wouldn't consider it such, when compared with the first two I linked above.

Now take a look at this link of power consumption. Note that this is under full load during gaming, and is for an entire computer. Also, it is measures "at the wall" meaning the load on the PSU is even lower (assuming 4/5 or 80%).

All I said above was to lay groundwork. Let's say you have a computer with a GeForce GTX 660 in it, and you have the PSU in the second link. It will probably shut off or fail under load. Thus you buy the PSU in the first link, and it works! Most people would then assume that a computer with that graphics card needed more than 500W but less than 550W, right?

Anyways, back to the top... I mentioned some companies include decent PSUs, right? This 300W SFX PSU is what Silverstone uses in their excellent SG05 and SG06 cases, and yes you can run a system with a GTX 660 using one of these PSUs.

With other PSUs included in cases? I typically have a sliding scale in mind when it comes to what wattage they can REALLY put out. Generally speaking the lower the number, the higher the percent. What does that mean? If the label claims 250W, I will think 150w. If it claims 400W I will think 200W. If it claims 550W I will think 250W. Also, while not accurate, I will temper those numbers by weight of the PSU in question. If it feels super light in weight, I will reduce my mental wattage. If it feels heavier (and looking into the grill shows more components) I will add to my mental wattage.

Scientific? Hardly. But all that was to explain why, yes, a single GPU system which typically draws in the 250-350W range (from the wall) might run just fine with a "crappy" 750W PSU included with a case, because in reality that PSU can probably put out a decent 300W and might hit 350W on a good day.

 

[aarontpx]

I've seen many run for years

I've seen many die in less than a year...and thats not to mention the other problems they can cause.

A power supply is the LAST place you want to cut corners imo.

 

[smitbret]

Agreed. I'm not an IT guy, but I have been the PC guy for countless family members and friends. Of all of the problems I've resolved in the last 15 years, a cheap PSU probably caused 1/2.

Don't skimp on your PSU.

 

[blastingcap]

If it's not made by Seasonic or SuperFlower, I won't use it in anything important. I use Corsair 430W PSUs for lower-wattage stuff like my parents' computer. I would consider a few other brands too, but chances are that the OEM is Silverstone anyway.

Also, the max amps on the 12V rail is the key number for any PSU that will be asked to power high-end CPUs and GPUs. High wattage rating with low 12V rail amp rating is not useful.

 

[UNhooked]

I know my local MC sells MSI cases with Seasonic 650 for like $150 or so.

 

[Zap]

If it's not made by Seasonic or SuperFlower, I won't use it in anything important. I use Corsair 430W PSUs for lower-wattage stuff like my parents' computer. I would consider a few other brands too, but chances are that the OEM is Silverstone anyway.

Uh, what? :\

Silverstone is not a PSU OEM, but a brand that sources PSUs from various actual PSU manufacturers.

Seasonic and SuperFlower are not the end all, be all for PSU quality. Not sure about SuperFlower, but there have been Seasonic made PSUs in the past with crappy caps.

BTW what's the percentage of Seasonic or SuperFlower PSUs used in datacenters? If that isn't "anything important" then I don't know what is.

 

[nightspydk]

With antec you get seasonic++. That only makes it better imo.

put plainly a seasonic with modifications.

 

[TheReaWarmonger]

Prepackaged power supplies are often generic. Regardless if they use brand name guts, they most likely use cheap components (caps, wiring, etc). They often also have terrible ripple, among many other things. They're fine if you wanna build a basic rig. But I honestly don't see the point in stuffing $800 worth of computer hardware into a tower with a generic PSU. My main tower runs a Hipro 300w PSU (came with the HP a1410n OEM tower), manufactured back around 2005. It has been running a Athlon 64 and now a Athlon II 450 24/7 for over 8 years strong. I'm typing this on the computer that runs it right now. So I guess it all depends luck of the draw, some units are reliable others catch fire in a month. For what it's worth, i'd just spend the $69 and get a 620w SeaSonic PSU.

 

[2is]

With antec you get seasonic++. That only makes it better imo.

put plainly a seasonic with modifications.

I wouldn't automatically assume that's a good thing. In Antecs past, those mods were cheaper caps and a fan profile that allowed the PSU to overheat before ramping up the RPMs.

 

[nightspydk]

I wouldn't automatically assume that's a good thing. In Antecs past, those mods were cheaper caps and a fan profile that allowed the PSU to overheat before ramping up the RPMs.

I suppose that's true somehow. Caps are indeed most important. It's just some of the finest units I've see in general.

 

[futurefields]

for budget the antec vp-450 did me fine. that's a good true 450-watt budget power supply. it is based on an "old design" of psu's, so it lacks the Active PFC and 80+ certification of more expensive units. but, it is a well thought out implementation of this "old design" and thus delivers quite a bit of juice with good tolerances. i would recommend it over any other sub-$50 psu.

i recently upgraded to a rosewill capstone 650 modular because I didn't want to run a $300 gpu on the Antec, though it probably could have handled it. the capstone is a beefier unit with a bigger fan, more wattage and higher efficiency, and the modular cabling cleaned up my case. I got it on sale for $85.

 

[lehtv]

BTW what's the percentage of Seasonic or SuperFlower PSUs used in datacenters? If that isn't "anything important" then I don't know what is.

I'd guess Delta is pretty popular among servers. Their build quality is very high, but they're mostly not a consumer unit manufacturer. The only consumer brand I've seen use their units is Antec

 

[ronss]

With antec you get seasonic++. That only makes it better imo.

put plainly a seasonic with modifications.

i disagree, seasonic makes psu,s for certain manufacturers.,...but from what i have seen, lot of antecs are made by Delta....i had some bad luck with a antec once, and sort of stay away from them...its not that i believe they are bad,,,they are better that than most, but then there are better ones than antec...

as for cheap psu,s, cheap power supplies use fewer components, and one place they does this is in the flitering stage..the recommended components for this stage are 2 ferrite coils, 2 ceramic capacitors, one metalized polyester capacitor and one mov..very low end power supplies use fewer components, usually removing the mov and the first coil....lower end psu,s usually use low quality components, such as capacitors...as they say, you get what you pay for...also, 99 % of the reviews out there are wrong...its someone with a deep background in electronics to truly understand power supplies, and most editors out there don,t have that.. one trustworthy place to get correct power supply reviews, is hardware secrets.

 

[Z15CAM]

Just type in KM3 PSU into any search Engine and you will find that the KM3 Platform is the latest engineering design for PSU's; Seasonic, Corsair and XFX use this Platform (there maybe other Brands's). I've listed Mfgr's by price - Doesn't mean they are not equal in quality.

You can check out Anandtech, Hardwaresecretes and Johnnyguru sites for PSU Reviews. Suggest you read reviews on the XFX 750W Pro Black Edition which pretty well sums it up for the latest TOP PSU's.

An XFX KM3 PSU is generally $20 to $40 cheaper then either the Seasonic or Corsair counterpart - They are Basically Identical because the PSU has to conform to the KM3 Design and Specifications.

 

[nightspydk]

i disagree, seasonic makes psu,s for certain manufacturers.,...but from what i have seen, lot of antecs are made by Delta....i had some bad luck with a antec once, and sort of stay away from them...its not that i believe they are bad,,,they are better that than most, but then there are better ones than antec...

as for cheap psu,s, cheap power supplies use fewer components, and one place they does this is in the flitering stage..the recommended components for this stage are 2 ferrite coils, 2 ceramic capacitors, one metalized polyester capacitor and one mov..very low end power supplies use fewer components, usually removing the mov and the first coil....lower end psu,s usually use low quality components, such as capacitors...as they say, you get what you pay for...also, 99 % of the reviews out there are wrong...its someone with a deep background in electronics to truly understand power supplies, and most editors out there don,t have that.. one trustworthy place to get correct power supply reviews, is hardware secrets.

I suppose it depends on the experience. I would first try make sure about the components. Appreciate the heads up tho.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDArticles&op=Story&ndar_id=24

 

[Sleepingforest]

i disagree, seasonic makes psu,s for certain manufacturers.,...but from what i have seen, lot of antecs are made by Delta

Fortunately, Delta is a top-class manufacturer as well (at least, the quality is good. They manufacture for servers, so their ability to make quiet PSUs is a bit lower than Seasonic. But still top notch!).

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Topower, FSP and CWT can be fairly decent as well.
Not everyone needs to spend $100-200 on a 80+ Gold PSU

 

[atpokey]

Just make sure to keep your eye on WHAT the included PSU is as mentioned above. As to consequences, a friend picked up an HEC (ick) with his case, and it died within 2 weeks, I can't remember if it destroyed his system or not, but I know he didnt have fun testing and replacing parts til it was all sorted again.

 

[TheVrolok]

Not much for me to add to this discussion but agreement and similar anecdotes. I do not skimp on PSU (when buying a new car, my dad always said, "get the bigger engine") and I've used that philosophy for my PSUs. First and foremost if you want endurance out of your system a quality brand is a must. Second comes wattage, as really only the big enthusiast multiple gpu systems need the serious wattage PSUs. That said, I still use power supplies that can provide 400 more watts than I require.. Because I like the bigger engine.

Also, the two issues that always seem to crop up when my friends' systems die are bad RAM or bad PSU. And bad PSUs are far more dangerous.

 

[Blain]

But how bad do they suck, really?
If you aren't going to overclock and not gonna push the wattage (single GPU, with a 750W cheap case PSU for example), is it really that bad?
I've seen many run for years, even for 24/7 use. What's up with all that?

* What brand?
* What brand and model?
* What brand were they?

 

[TemjinGold]

I know that the PSUs that come with PC cases suck. Badly. But how bad do they suck, really? If you aren't going to overclock and not gonna push the wattage (single GPU, with a 750W cheap case PSU for example), is it really that bad? I've seen many run for years, even for 24/7 use. What's up with all that?

It isn't necessarily that they won't run or can't run fine for several years (though many tend to have significantly lower efficiency). It's that IF you do get one that dies, it will die by taking the rest of your computer with it. I had that happen over a thunderstorm. I had a quality PSU. Roommate had a no-brand cheap thing that he insisted would be fine. The next morning, I swapped out my PSU and kept on trucking. He needed a whole new computer.

I also used to get BSODs all the time with cheap PSUs. Stopped getting them when I stopped buying those.

 

[Meghan54]

I'd guess Delta is pretty popular among servers. Their build quality is very high, but they're mostly not a consumer unit manufacturer. The only consumer brand I've seen use their units is Antec

Not all Antecs are Seasonic just like not all Seasonics are Antecs. And not all Seasonics are all the same, either. Remember, when Seasonic was building the price constrained (* price constraint put on by Antec), Seasonic was simultaneously building Silencers for PC Power & Cooling, a platform Seasonic built for themselves, based PCP&C's Silencer line on and Corsair's original HX line.

BTW...Delta is the dominant supplier for server power supplies, controlling well over 60% of the server ps market. And realize that Delta's soldering expertise is considered the gold standard and is what everyone else's soldering quality is compared to. Seasonic is only just beginning to come close to matching the soldering quality of Delta...no one else really comes close to Delta----well, some of Super Flower's units are doing about as well, but Delta is the king of excellent soldering.

i disagree, seasonic makes psu,s for certain manufacturers.,...but from what i have seen, lot of antecs are made by Delta....i had some bad luck with a antec once, and sort of stay away from them...its not that i believe they are bad,,,they are better that than most, but then there are better ones than antec...

as for cheap psu,s, cheap power supplies use fewer components, and one place they does this is in the flitering stage..the recommended components for this stage are 2 ferrite coils, 2 ceramic capacitors, one metalized polyester capacitor and one mov..very low end power supplies use fewer components, usually removing the mov and the first coil....lower end psu,s usually use low quality components, such as capacitors...as they say, you get what you pay for...also, 99 % of the reviews out there are wrong...its someone with a deep background in electronics to truly understand power supplies, and most editors out there don,t have that.. one trustworthy place to get correct power supply reviews, is hardware secrets.

Also realize that with the newer DC-to-DC conversion based power supplies, manufacturers are beginning to eschew a bit of the AC filtering stage and using the initial AC/DC conversion controller for parts of the filtering job.

And 99% aren't wrong, just don't have the proper tools to do a proper testing job. I'm very glad to see Gabriel at Hardware Secrets finally begin to include screenshots of the ripple/noise generation traces, something left out of his reviews for years, even after JG's site had been doing that for damned near a decade before Gabriel began.

Nice paraphrasing of Gabriel's article on his site, btw.

Also realize that Seasonic built those problematic Antec power supplies of years ago to Antec's price point. That's how it works....a seller wants an OEM to manufacture a product. The OEM presents what it can make within the price constraints given by the seller. The seller then asks for more cuts to save a few pennies here and there, and in the end giving those crap caps inside. All for a few pennies.

After all, at that point, the seller is the warranty claims center, not the OEM.
The OEM may point out the weakness from using cheap caps, but will build the units to whatever spec/price point the buyer wants.

Just type in KM3 PSU into any search Engine and you will find that the KM3 Platform is the latest engineering design for PSU's; Seasonic, Corsair and XFX use this Platform (there maybe other Brands's). I've listed Mfgr's by price - Doesn't mean they are not equal in quality.

You can check out Anandtech, Hardwaresecretes and Johnnyguru sites for PSU Reviews. Suggest you read reviews on the XFX 750W Pro Black Edition which pretty well sums it up for the latest TOP PSU's.

An XFX KM3 PSU is generally $20 to $40 cheaper then either the Seasonic or Corsair counterpart - They are Basically Identical because the PSU has to conform to the KM3 Design and Specifications.

1. The KM3 platform is the current platform for ONE manufacturer, not for the industry. Super Flower would disagree with you about the KM3 being "the" leading ps platform.

2. You do understand the KM3 platform can be modified any which way the buyer wants. Contract to buy enough product and Seasonic will build a KM3 platform with CapXon caps inside. There isn't a "standard" to be followed without deviation, which would explain why XFX's ripple/noise suppression has generally been worse than Corsair's or Seasonic's until most recently.

The buyer can dictate components internally, as seen with Antec and Seasonic years ago---the bad caps in those Antecs was solely Antec's responsibility and choice, not Seasonic's.



And there are a host of other good OEM's out there--Etasis, Ehance (which builds a lot of Silverstone product), among others.