Public Smoking Ban

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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,221
28,920
136
Originally posted by: AragornTK
what about diet soda? most contain sacarine(sp?) which is a known carcinogen, but you can get it in much greater quantities and cheap than cigarettes AND they don't have labels saying it's bad for you

When was the last time someone walked up and spit diet soda into your mouth?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: GregGreen
Originally posted by: Harvey


It's hardly outrageous, and according to The American Lung Association, your basic assumption that these laws harm businesses is just dead ass wrong. See their conclusion starting on page 7:

BULLSH!T! It most certainly does hurt bars. Just because some industry group supports a ban doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt any businesses. That might be worst logical fallacy in this entire thread. And if you want proof go ask any bar owner or bartender in New York State!

as far as I know, the smoking ban in NYC has had absolutely no major and lasting impact on bars.
 

SMOKE20

Senior member
Apr 6, 2004
201
0
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: GregGreen
Originally posted by: Harvey


It's hardly outrageous, and according to The American Lung Association, your basic assumption that these laws harm businesses is just dead ass wrong. See their conclusion starting on page 7:

BULLSH!T! It most certainly does hurt bars. Just because some industry group supports a ban doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt any businesses. That might be worst logical fallacy in this entire thread. And if you want proof go ask any bar owner or bartender in New York State!



as far as I know, the smoking ban in NYC has had absolutely no major and lasting impact on bars.

New York Ban 'Has Cost 2,600 Jobs'

November 10, 2004
By Chris Moncrieff, PA

New York bar owners have denied the city?s smoking ban has been an unqualified success.

Tom McCabe, former health minister in the Scottish Parliament and now finance minister, has been told that nothing could be further from the truth.

In a letter to Mr McCabe, made public today, the Empire State and Tavern Association, the New York Nightlife Association and the United Restaurant and Tavern Owners said the latest available statistics are damning in terms of the economic effect the ban has had on the city?s hospitality industry.

New York?s bars and taverns and their suppliers have lost 2,600 jobs, 50 million dollars in wages and 70 million dollars in production, it was claimed.

?For months, bars across New York have felt the pain of a total smoking ban, only to be accused by the anti-smoking supporters of misrepresenting the impact,? the letter said.

They claim that another important knock-on effect has been the loss of tips.

?Many bartenders are losing upwards of 50% of their nightly tips and as they are only paid 3.35 dollars per hour, this is having a major impact on their salary.?

The letter said that disgruntled city residents are unhappy about the noise caused by smokers, who are forced to congregate on the street outside bars.

?In some cases this has even led to violent behaviour towards smokers in the street.?

The letter continued: ?As if this isn?t enough to contend with, there is the major issue of how the smoking ban is enforced.

?The burden of imposing the ban is on the bar owner, not the customer who is actually breaking the law. If customers were fined, as legally they are supposed to be, we really would have seen a riot here.

?The real solution is to put smokers back inside the bars where they belong.?


NYC Smoking Clash With Bars

Smokers going underground
Private clubs hot spots for outcasts
By Christian M. Wade
Times Herald-Record
cwade@th-record.com

Middletown ? Call them smoke-easys.
Private clubs and civic organizations, which have struggled with declining membership for years, have suddenly become the hottest night spots around.
The reason is an exemption in the state smoking ban for nonprofit clubs. And local clubs are eagerly jumping through the loophole.
At the Fraternal Order of Eagles Post 544 in Middletown, a ramshackle old house in Courtland Street, members can smoke at the bar inside, something patrons at other local bars are banned from doing.
Coincidentally, membership in the Eagles post has grown 11 percent, from 180 to 200, since the smoking ban went into effect July 24, according to Eagles Secretary Alex Lysyczyn.
Lysyczyn refused to attribute the growth in new members to a demand for smoke-friendly bars, but admitted it's a factor.
"Our members are glad they can relax without having to go outside to smoke," he said.
Exactly what goes on in the Eagles post and other private clubs is a mystery to non-members. You can't just walk into the club and order a drink. Eagles applicants must be sponsored by two members and pass an initiation.
A provision of the state Clean Indoor Air Act allows smoking at private clubs as long as no money is changing hands between staff and club members.
Tavern owners say the nonprofit exemption is another example of how the hastily written state law has led to confusion. They also cite the unwillingness of county health officials to grant waivers for businesses hurt by the smoking ban, a provision that the law affords.
Scott Wexler, president of the Empire State Tavern Association, said the exemption for private clubs has been a bitter pill to swallow for thousands of bar owners who are losing money since the ban went into effect.
"As long as this law is on the books, we believe that it should be applied even-handedly," he said. "If not, it will only exacerbate the economic distress being felt by business owners."
While tavern industry officials say some clubs are abusing the smoking ban's nonprofit exemption, county health officials haven't fined any clubs for violating the law.
"What we do is follow the law as it is written," said Dr. Jean Hudson, Orange County health commissioner. "If we receive a complaint, then we launch a formal investigation."
Bill Caputo, commander of the Disabled American Veterans Post 152 in Newburgh, said he received a letter from the Orange County Health Department last month warning that he would be fined if he allowed members to smoke in the bar.
The letter said a member had complained to county officials about smoking inside the club. Although the club uses volunteer workers, Caputo has been sending his members outside to smoke since the complaint, fearing a $1,000 fine for violating the smoking ban.
Caputo, 85, a World War II veteran, said members want him to fight the charges. He said he's lost half his sales since he ousted the smokers.
"We depend on the income from our alcohol sales," he said.
Other nonprofit organizations, such as VFW Post 973 in Newburgh, have advertised their smoke-friendly status. Until Wednesday, the VFW displayed a hand-written sign outside the club that read "Smokers Welcome." The sign has since been removed, but not the smokers.
Jerry Zemantauski, the quartermaster, or post manager, at the VFW, says he's not breaking the law.
"Until someone comes down here and tells me why we can't, we'll continue smoking in the bar," he said. "Even if they do, I still won't close down, because we're following the law."
Zemantauski, 72, said he'd be forced to close the post if smoking was banned.
"It's hard. This law is hurting everyone."

 

AragornTK

Senior member
Dec 27, 2005
207
0
0
I retract my previous statement about saccharin, it's actually not even listed as a carcinogen anymore, my source was a little outdated... but almost a decade...
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Late to the party.

I'm a non smoker - I do not support smoking bans.

Ventilation systems are so much better than they were 10-20 years ago, what's the big deal?

And anti-tobacco activists are some of the biggest lying s.o.b.'s out there. We just had commercials here as Chicago recently signed a smoking ban. The anti-tobacco groups ran commercials basically saying "big tobacco is the lone opponent of the smoking ban, do we want them controlling our lives, blah bla-blah blah blah." No, it was restaurant, bar, night-club owners, and all those who do smoke who were the ones against the ban.

And gee, um, I'm going to take away rights from decent hard-working Americans? There are much worse things out there, businesses, factories, industries that are polluting the air with far more harmful chemicals than second-hand smoke. But all they have to do is pay a little extra money each year for the rights to continue polluting the air.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Coudn't find any related threads with a search nor any up to date articles, but I found this in Wikipedia.

"Washington, 8 December 2005 banned in all workplaces, including bars, restaurants, bowling alleys, and non-tribal casinos. Also bans smoking while standing within 25 feet of a door or window that can open. Currently it is the strictest smoking ban by state in the country."

So you can own a business but the you have absolutely no right to let people smoke in your own building on your own property.
Personally, I love smoking bans. I'm tired of breathing that poisonous smoke. I'm tired of having to hold my breath in that last 50 feet before I enter buildings. I'm tired of going to a bowling alley and coming home smelling like an ashtray.

As that saying goes, "Your rights end where mine begin" and that goes for my lungs. Too bad we can't get pollution bans on companies that pollute our air. Seems they do more damage to us and the environment than do smokers.

But, at least here, if a business has more than 50% of its sales from alcohol, they can have smoking in the facility.
 

jfall

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2000
5,975
2
0
Originally posted by: m316foley
This is absolutely outrageous. If they ever ban smoking in my state to this extent, then I WILL go to canada. It's not like we're not polluting the air as it is with factories and cars. Wow, now pick on the cigarette smokers. Take smoking away from any bar I go to, yes, they WILL lose business.

I'm a conscious smoker. I'm very aware of who I am smoking around and if it may bother them, however, I do smoke at work. There's a long awning that I smoke under when it rains - about 20 feet from the door. Absolutely no one has complained about it and I will continue to do it until someone does. Then, i'll be in my car. However, forcing bars and clubs to enact this law is absolutely ridculous.


Coming to Canada isn't going to help you much. Canadian provinces are also putting smoking bans in place. Where I live you are not allowed to smoke in any public place including bars. Also, keep in mind that a pack of smokes in Canada sells for over 11 dollars.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,221
28,920
136
Originally posted by: jfall
Coming to Canada isn't going to help you much. Canadian provinces are also putting smoking bans in place. Where I live you are not allowed to smoke in any public place including bars. Also, keep in mind that a pack of smokes in Canada sells for over 11 dollars.

The Canadians need to drop that tax a bit. That rate supports a black market.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: jfall
Coming to Canada isn't going to help you much. Canadian provinces are also putting smoking bans in place. Where I live you are not allowed to smoke in any public place including bars. Also, keep in mind that a pack of smokes in Canada sells for over 11 dollars.

The Canadians need to drop that tax a bit. That rate supports a black market.

Wow, imagine being jailed for smuggling cigatettes.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
It's impossible to avoid cigarette smoke and ash, and actually be anywhere but at home.

<- with Conjur
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
It's impossible to avoid cigarette smoke and ash, and actually be anywhere but at home.

<- with Conjur

But it can be mitigated with courtesy.

 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
I would have no problem with lifting the bans on smoking if smokers could not use their health insurance to pay for lung cancer treatment. If they want to smoke, and kill themselves, that's fine, but don't go wasting my money (and increasing my healthcare costs) to keep them alive in 50 years.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Cerb
It's impossible to avoid cigarette smoke and ash, and actually be anywhere but at home.

<- with Conjur
But it can be mitigated with courtesy.
Would, "holding my breathe and hoping I make it far enough past not to breathe any in," count as being courteous? Because I pretty much have to do that all the time. If it hasn't rained in a few days, I may have to do that just walking into a building, even if no one is actually out smoking.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I would have no problem with lifting the bans on smoking if smokers could not use their health insurance to pay for lung cancer treatment. If they want to smoke, and kill themselves, that's fine, but don't go wasting my money (and increasing my healthcare costs) to keep them alive in 50 years.
That is an issue for the insurance companies. If it is too much, they may stop accepting them, or raise the costs to prohobitive levels.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Cerb
It's impossible to avoid cigarette smoke and ash, and actually be anywhere but at home.

<- with Conjur
But it can be mitigated with courtesy.
Would, "holding my breathe and hoping I make it far enough past not to breathe any in," count as being courteous? Because I pretty much have to do that all the time. If it hasn't rained in a few days, I may have to do that just walking into a building, even if no one is actually out smoking.


How many smokers are courteous? Very few are deliberately. Many will cooperate after the fact, few before.
I believe that it is just instinct for them to not realize that it affects others.
 
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