Pundits still scared of Ron Paul

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Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
Seriously, no one is "scared" of Mr Paul. His policies would actually benefit the rich and powerful.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Most polls have shown Ron Paul winning. Other candidates have to refer to him for facts as they're stumbling on their words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KfDJfvYH6CY

Watch this for instance. They go over poll data relating to the 1/16 debate in which Ron Paul is far above all other candidates in nearly every category. Most of the other candidates only rated high in dodging questions and being deceptive.... Which I'd assume we all agree is not what somebody who is going to lead the country should be doing.



Romney is a fraud. Gingrich is a fraud... and you guys just don't like Ron Paul.

I think you're cherry picking to prove your point that RP won "most" of the debate polls.

I don't "like" any of the three of them, actually. Of the three, I am in closer alignment with Paul on foreign policy even if I think he's a little extreme for my tastes. He's better for civil liberties, at least on the federal level, than the other two. He just has no chance to win, principally because his foreign policy views alienate most of the GOP base. I do, however, give him credit for introducing a more dovish perspective into the GOP discourse. I think there's some softening up in conservative circles on use of the military. Much of that has to do with Bush's failures, but Paul does deserve some credit for highlighting the issue and not compromising his view to get more votes. He will never be POTUS, but he at least can claim that as a positive legacy.

The newsletters are atrocious and I think RP's statements about them are inconsistent, but the other candidates have past scandals of their own.

His ideas about economics are terrible, but the other candidates more or less at least claim to embrace the same ideas. I'm not sure which is worse: pretending to embrace terrible ideas, or actually embracing them. That's essentially the choice we have among this GOP field.

He doesn't "scare" anyone, because no one outside his fan base thinks he can win. Some conservatives worry that his persistence might damage the GOP candidate's chances against Obama. That is all. This so-called "fear" is a fantasy/delusion of his disciples.

That's about all I can say about him. His supporters, however, are another matter...

- wolf
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,582
7,645
136
Break it down, and Ron Paul is best candidate. He's talking real issues.

Ron Paul is the holder of the best ideals, he is most certainly not the best candidate as he is far too old to win American Idol.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
His ideas about economics are terrible, but the other candidates more or less at least claim to embrace the same ideas.

What ideas? Can you summarize at least 3 key points Ron Paul makes with regards to economics?

For example:

  • Runaway growth in debt and government spending is bad. Government should be forced to fund itself through taxation and donation, not by running a massive deficit.
  • Deficit spending finances asset bubbles which leads to destruction of wealth for all but a few wealthy individuals who recognize the bubble and react to it first.
  • Having a central bank set monetary policy is bad. The market should set interest rates.

Now can you actually make a list like that? And if you can then kindly explain how and why any point on that or your list is somehow terrible.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Ron Paul is too racist to be a viable candidate. If you're for Racist Ron Paul, then you're against humanity.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Ron Paul is too racist to be a viable candidate. If you're for Racist Ron Paul, then you're against humanity.

And Freedom. Because being racist is against freedom, therefore Ron Paul is against freedom.

(I expect paulbots heads exploding momentarily)
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
What ideas? Can you summarize at least 3 key points Ron Paul makes with regards to economics?

For example:

  • Runaway growth in debt and government spending is bad. Government should be forced to fund itself through taxation and donation, not by running a massive deficit.
  • Deficit spending finances asset bubbles which leads to destruction of wealth for all but a few wealthy individuals who recognize the bubble and react to it first.
  • Having a central bank set monetary policy is bad. The market should set interest rates.

Now can you actually make a list like that? And if you can then kindly explain how and why any point on that or your list is somehow terrible.

I could site about 10 things I disagree with him on economics. I'll name just three since that is what you asked for:

1. Gold standard, coupled with constant paranoia about hyper-inflation that never comes to pass.

2. Wanting to repeal anti-trust laws because he believes there are no "natural" monopolies.

3. Thinks all (or virtually all) government regulation is bad, including regulation of the financial sector.

With regards to the issues you raise, you are taking extreme views and discussing them in general, aspirational terms which masks the extremism. For example, everyone agrees that "runaway growth in debt" is bad. That doesn't mean that I want to see government spending slashed to the extent that he does. A reasonable scaling back of government spending in most/all areas plus a modest tax increase will take care of the problem, so long as the economy improves (about half the current deficit is due to the bad economy.)

I also think it's obvious that harsh spending cuts are a bad idea in this economic climate and would immediately plummet us into a second recession, possibly worse than the first one. RP's policies are motivated by ideology rather than material realities, which means they are one size fits all ideas. He wants to slash government whether we're in good economic times or bad, because slashing government is the point in and of itself, and the economic consequences are a secondary consideration at best. I can't agree with applying a rigid ideology that says government is per se bad, rather than an approach that looks at the cost-benefit of each government function/program. I disagree with applying paradigmatic ideology because it doesn't solve actual, real world problems. People's "principle" and "aspirations" are irrelevant. What's relevant is what works and what doesn't work in the real world. Ideologues are pre-occuppied with utopian ideas and disconnected from the real world. The same is true with Marxists.

- wolf
 
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Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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0
I can't wait until that racist old man inevitably loses and retires so that we never have to hear his troll-like voice ever again.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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And Freedom. Because being racist is against freedom, therefore Ron Paul is against freedom.

(I expect paulbots heads exploding momentarily)

Well, Ron Paul is also against civil liberties for individuals, so he is naturally against freedom, whether we ignore his racism or not.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Haven't the Paulbots been bent over and owned in enough threads already? Do we really need to add another to the pile. See below if you're still confused, Paulbots:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ron-paul-versus-the-fourteenth-amendment/ - Paul does not support 14th Amendment
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.539: - HOR bill sponsored by Paul (and others) trying to get anti-14th Amendment into law.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul259.html - Paul denies incorporation doctrine of 14th amendment
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2008/01/the_rockwell_files.cfm
http://tomgpalmer.com/2005/01/21/racism-and-bigotry-delivered-courtesy-of-lew-rockwell/
http://reason.com/blog/2008/01/11/old-news-rehashed-for-over-a-d - 1996 interview where he takes ownership of his words, but not in 2008.
http://newsone.com/nation/casey-gane-mccalla/ron-paul-addresses-racist-newsletters-on-cnn/ - CNN interview where he gets grilled about newsletters, equivocates on whether he would look for these 6-8 people.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/21/ron-paul-gets-defensive-over-past-newsletters/ - Paul gets testy about newsletters
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/in-1995-video-ron-paul-takes-credit-for-the-ron-p-4vfo - takes ownership of newsletters in 1995 video BUSTED
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/12/ron-paul-movie-john-birch-society - New World Order stuff, Ron Paul sounding like his newsletters
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/12/23/ron_paul_on_the_trilateral_commission.html - Ron Paul on the Trilateral Commission secretly running country, Ron Paul sounding like his newsletters (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/PartyPe/start/1481/stop/1621)
http://dyn.politico.com/members/for...tid=1&threadid=5813132&start=61&CurrentPage=3 – Speculation from random poster, reposted below:

Ron Paul has demonstrated in recent history that he has poor taste in choosing political advisers and staffers. Jesse Benton, his campaign-chairman-in-law, is the same dimwit who bungled many of the congressman's media engagements in 2007 and 2008. Benton's most prominent error resulted in setting up a literal "ambush interview" with Sacha Baron-Cohen's "Brüno Gehard" shot for Cohen's film in which the flamboyantly gay titular character attempted to produce a celebrity sex tape with the doctor. I doubt very strongly that this is the first time that Ron Paul has made such a mistake in hiring campaign personnel.
Having read at least one copy of the Ron Paul newsletter from PDF's I've found on the web (source and quotes below), I agree with the idea that the language does not match that of Dr. Paul. Before I get into that, however, I would like to discuss who might be responsible for the content of those letters, if it were not Ron Paul himself.
Lew Rockwell has been suggested as a possible source, but having read his work, I find it unlikely, particularly when viewed from the perspective that Rockwell himself is an academic. Gary North has also been suggested, but North's style doesn't fit either. One suspect rises to the top of my list with a link to Ron Paul via Lew Rockwell: Fred Reed.
Reed is a cantankerous curmudgeon of some notoriety. He wrote for the Washington Times as a "law-enforcement columnist," and prior to that served as a war journalist in Vietnam. His views on race relations, feminism, Israel and other hot-button issues are contrarian to say the least, and per Wikipedia, he refers to himself as an "equal opportunity irritant."
Why I suggest he might be the ghost-author comes from the fact that he and Ron Paul have similar perspectives on U.S. hegemony, war, the dollar, the economy as a whole, the two-in-one-party system and the nanny state. While Ron Paul writes books on these subjects in a plain-spoken, if dry, English, Reed peppers his prose with 10-dollar words and southern wit in an occasionally effective imitation of H.L. Mencken or Mark Twain.
Samples of Reed: "King is a manufactured saint, as artificial as Kwanzaa, stage-managed by whites, turned by them into an impossible Father Theresa in black face to instruct me, trotted out by anchormen and anchor-bimbettes who recite their lines like bad actors who don't believe in their parts. Listen to them. Do they not sound like bored shills reading ads for a new miracle truss?
"Blacks are welcome to have a saint if they choose. I don't want him used as a moral truncheon by people who want to shape me." --Fred Reed, "Martin Luther King"
"The platoon didn’t know why they were being picked on. If villagers didn’t want to get shot, they shouldn’t let heavily armed insurgents come into their village. At a thousand legion halls, members said war is war, people get hurt. You gotta expect it. The press are wimps, comsymps, unrealistic idealists. We need to unleash the troops, let them win." --Fred Reed, "A Grand Adventure"
Excerpts from the Ron Paul newsletter (via LittleGreenFootballs): "The mega-expensive stealth fighter-bombers that missed their targets in Panama, and which the government covered up, aren't so stealth either. A French newsmagazine reports that the Saudi radar can "see" the American stealth planes that are stationed there for the war against Iraq, although they are supposedly invisible to radar.
"The stealth planes can get closer (10.5 miles) than a regular aircraft before being detected, but no so close that they could avoid being shot down by an alert ack-ack crew." --Newsletter, "Not So Stealth"
"So now even the establishment press admits that Martin Luther King plagiarized his PhD dissertation, his academic articles, his speeches, and his sermons.
"He was also a comsymp, if not an actual party member, and the man who replaced the evil of forced segregation with the evil of forced integration." --Newsletter, "'Dr.' King"
Writing styles are like fingerprints, and certain words and patterns are like "markers." For example, the word "comsymp" appears both in Reed's article about war from 2010 and the newsletter's segment on MLK, while the Reed article on King similarly demonstrates the rather hostile tone toward the civil rights activist found in the newsletter. Further, the use of the phrase "ack-ack crew" sounds more reflective of the onomatopoeic shorthand of a former aspiring gonzo military journalist, somebody like Reed, than of the writings of a doctor-cum-congressman like Paul.
Back to the connection of Reed to Rockwell and subsequently Paul, Reed allows Rockwell to mirror selected articles on LewRockwell.com. Rockwell, of course, has always been a supporter of Ron Paul, and has long-published the congressman's articles on his website.
Surprisingly, from what I have read of Fred Reed's articles, and even using the Google search option, I can find no mention or endorsement of Dr. Paul by Reed, in spite of their shared acquaintanceship with Lew, and similar views on war, drugs, etc. It doesn't simply appear to be an aversion to mentioning politicians by name, he's spoken openly about McCain, Clinton, Bushes I and II, and Obama, it appears to be a willful avoidance to Dr. Paul's existence. Why?
Perhaps the mysterious ghost-author/editor is Fred Reed, hired by Rockwell. He and Ron Paul parted ways a while back, never to mention their brief alliance due to the trouble it ultimately caused the now-candidate. So, Fred avoids discussing Ron and Ron refuses to cough-up the name of the writer of the newsletter, leaving it all to speculation, hoping that it would just all go away.
Unfortunately for the Paul campaign, some people would prefer to discuss and write hit-pieces about some ridiculous, twenty-year-old newsletters (the ideas in which Paul has both publicly denounced and disavowed while demonstrating through his actions that he does not endorse them) instead of the major issues of America going bankrupt, the destruction of civil liberties under PATRIOT ACT and the threat of reprisal for U.S. imperial militarism.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
People need to forget republican/democrat and just vote for the best president not "who is most likely to win"

Out of the Choices right now I prefer Ron Paul just because the current system is obviously broken and he will turn it on its head.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
Well, Ron Paul is also against civil liberties for individuals, so he is naturally against freedom, whether we ignore his racism or not.

No, he's against the bullshit incorporation doctrine. The bill of rights was made for the federal government and not the states. And the 14th amendment does nothing to change this. There are cases that back this up as well, so he's not the only person in history who has made this case. There's nothing in the constitution that applies the BOR to the states governments.

This is just a bogus interpretation like the current day interpretation of the "commerce clause", "general welfare" etc
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
No, he's against the bullshit incorporation doctrine. The bill of rights was made for the federal government and not the states. And the 14th amendment does nothing to change this. There are cases that back this up as well, so he's not the only person in history who has made this case. There's nothing in the constitution that applies the BOR to the states governments.

This is just a bogus interpretation like the current day interpretation of the "commerce clause", "general welfare" etc

If you aren't demonstrably ignorant of reality and SCOTUS decisions over 100 years old, then no, none of it is bogus. More likely, you're probably just a little slow.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
If you aren't demonstrably ignorant of reality and SCOTUS decisions over 100 years old, then no, none of it is bogus. More likely, you're probably just a little slow.

It doesn't matter what SCOTUS rules, they can't change the constitution. The constitution is very clear, there's nothing in there that applies the BOR to the states, no matter how many government lawyers in black robes say it so.

Even if you don't agree with me, it doesn't mean I'm "against civil liberties", that's just hogwash.
 
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First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
It doesn't matter what SCOTUS rules,

No actually it does, they are the final word on what's still legal/constitutional.

they can't change the constitution.

The incorporation doctrine doesn't do that, though I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.

The constitution is very clear, there's nothing in there that applies the BOR to the states, no matter how many government lawyers in black robes say it so.

Even if you don't agree with me, it doesn't mean I'm "against civil liberties", that's just hogwash.

You're just ignorant of the facts, I'm afraid.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
No, he's against the bullshit incorporation doctrine. The bill of rights was made for the federal government and not the states. And the 14th amendment does nothing to change this. There are cases that back this up as well, so he's not the only person in history who has made this case. There's nothing in the constitution that applies the BOR to the states governments.

This is just a bogus interpretation like the current day interpretation of the "commerce clause", "general welfare" etc

Actually the 14th Amendment incorporates the Bill of Rights against the states, so there is something in the Constitution that applies the BOR to the states.

Moreover, Ron Paul, by virtue of his against the Bill of Rights applying against the states, is against civil liberties for individuals.

Ron Paul is the most anti-civil liberties candidate since George Wallace.
 
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