[Q] ARM vs x86 in consumer space in 10 years

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sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
If you had to place a bet on which will dominate the consumer market in, say, 10 years, what would you say?

ARM already dominates the consumer space, if you subtract PC and console gaming. Once the consoles go ARM, that will flip the market in terms of non-professional non-business related CPU cycles.
 

Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
One day, we will have home servers that are built and serviced like central AC systems. Thin clients simply attatch to this home server for compute power anywhere in the house, including gaming.
 

simboss

Member
Jan 4, 2013
47
0
66
People have been trying to make FPGAs easier to program for decades with little to show for it. Very very low confidence that's going to change.

The incentive was not as strong, for a long time it was not necessary as you would get a decent performance boost from the CPU itself, then from going to multiple cores.
These 2 trends have reached their limits, so there has to be new solutions, even if it is painful.
You can also stay still and see the prices slowly erode, which is a very possible scenario as well, but people are not going to continue to pay for new HW for 5-10% increases in performance.

FPGA in themselves might not be necessary or the right solution, you can have a set of fixed hardware that offer enough programmability to cover big use cases.
There are already a lot of these on today's SoCs, but they are targeted towards consumer uses (ISP, DSP, GPU, HW codecs, ...), I don't see why they would not start to appear in server types products as well.

An example of this trend:
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1328071&

You don't need the bandwidth to stream video, that's mostly a latency insensitive market and the bandwidth to do it has been there for years. But that doesn't do a damn thing for interactive use.

I think we agree here.

Even doing interactive use over local networking has obvious degradation and once you add in geographic differences and switches/routers, it only gets worse. Hell, people notice a difference between game servers with 50ms and 80ms pings.

It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem (as many problems are), you need better latency to enable new use cases, but new use cases won't appear until you get the latency.
Who can solve the issue? the obvious name is Google, they are already running an ISP service and would benefit from this could based model.

As far as the rational to sell 100Mbps or 1Gbps or 10Gbps, people aren't buying those connections for the constant data rate, they are buying them for the burst data rate. Less waiting to DL 50+GB is a significant driver.

How often do people DL a 50GB file nowadays?
and even when they do, how often do they need it in 30 seconds rather than 5 minutes?

I know a lot of people with 1Gbps connections, and they wouldn't go back to something slower if you paid them. Hell I know 1 guy who basically keeps his Steam library in a ramdisk because he can just delete and redownload games so fast it doesn't matter how much storage he has for it. He's going to be upgrading to a 10Gbps within the next month, fyi.

And I know someone that does not have internet at all... Extremes are not really proving a point.

My point is that yes, latency is not quite there yet for the masses, but I don't think it's more than 5 years away, certainly not 10, and as you say it's already here for some people.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
If you had to place a bet on which will dominate the consumer market in, say, 10 years, what would you say?

I guess it's tied with Windows closely, and what will the fate of windows be.

I know it's all wild speculation, and I am a noob when it comes to all of this, but I am curios as to how will the computer, software and SOC landscape look like in the future.

Are there any relevant trends to look at to try and predict?

Will we all be rocking iphones and android phones with amazing performance that have continuum-like capabilities? Or will windows remain on x86 and people would still be buying laptops?

Depends on what you consider consumer. Right now on a unit shipment argument x86 is a minor player in this space. Billions of arm chips are shipped a year in phones, tablets, and other devices. X86 amounts to about ~300 million units a year.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Yes, but beyond that area you mention (mobile) how would they attack?

I think they would probably go for the corporate data center first (ie, VDI). Then scale back some lesser core count non-mobile SoCs for the consumer space.

They could also scale up to non-mobile consumer from NAS first (bypassing corporate data center), but die sizes being what they are I am thinkng this probably makes less sense.

I am not sure they need to attack. Just let the natural progression to Mobile make x86 irrelevant. I think in 10 years it is possible workstations are a thing of the past. instead everybody uses their phone with a docking station to power dual monitors ect.
 

imported_ats

Senior member
Mar 21, 2008
422
63
86
The incentive was not as strong, for a long time it was not necessary as you would get a decent performance boost from the CPU itself, then from going to multiple cores.
These 2 trends have reached their limits, so there has to be new solutions, even if it is painful.
You can also stay still and see the prices slowly erode, which is a very possible scenario as well, but people are not going to continue to pay for new HW for 5-10% increases in performance.

Um, no, just no. People have been working on making FPGAs easier for A LONG TIME. The advantage of FPGAs for things they work for have in the past, do now, and will in the future far outstrip any performance improvement in CPUs. The problem is that FPGAs have been, are, and will continue to be very difficult to work with for non-hardware people. And even the vast majority of hardware people.

It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem (as many problems are), you need better latency to enable new use cases, but new use cases won't appear until you get the latency.
Who can solve the issue? the obvious name is Google, they are already running an ISP service and would benefit from this could based model.

No it is not chicken and egg. It is physics. If the latency issue exists on local lan, it will exist period. Unless you can change physics, the latency issues will always be there. There isn't some magic programming that will make it better.

How often do people DL a 50GB file nowadays?
and even when they do, how often do they need it in 30 seconds rather than 5 minutes?

How often? Once is enough. When you want it, you want it now. And they want it instantaneously or as close to that as possible.

My point is that yes, latency is not quite there yet for the masses, but I don't think it's more than 5 years away, certainly not 10, and as you say it's already here for some people.

The latency doesn't really change with faster bandwidths. The latency is from a combination of speed of light and switching delays. And it is pretty much fixed.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Yep, so the ARM Server running the x86 emulation needs to be inherently better in terms of performance per watt (with acceptable single thread). This, in order to counteract the loss in efficiency from the translation.

Needs to be much better than the best Intel offers for low perf, high perf/W which is 8+ core Atom server SoCs. It isn't going to happen.
 

simboss

Member
Jan 4, 2013
47
0
66
Not the first time we disagree on almost everything

Um, no, just no. People have been working on making FPGAs easier for A LONG TIME. The advantage of FPGAs for things they work for have in the past, do now, and will in the future far outstrip any performance improvement in CPUs. The problem is that FPGAs have been, are, and will continue to be very difficult to work with for non-hardware people. And even the vast majority of hardware people.

Of course it's not easy, but the incentive and the business case for it is very different from what it was 10 years ago.
Maybe there is more performance left on the table on the CPU design on the high performance side, but the current trend does not seem to show it, and recent announcements in the industry also points towards more FPGA integration.

Most things to improve performance of SW that were hard have not even been considered because CPUs were fast enough and still improving.
Now we have reached a point where:
- CPU for consumers are good enough for most users
- CPU for servers still need more and more performance
Using the same architecture and same constraints on both types of CPU does not seem to be the most clever way of doing things.

No it is not chicken and egg. It is physics. If the latency issue exists on local lan, it will exist period. Unless you can change physics, the latency issues will always be there. There isn't some magic programming that will make it better.
That is a big IF.

Reviewers of NVIDIA Grid or Playstation Now were saying that most of the time, the system was working, but you had a few times were the latency would drop below the acceptable.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/playstation-now-vs-nvidia-grid

If it was a physics issue, you would never even get close to the desired (*) latency at any time.

(*) Of course you will always get someone to tell you that it's not good enough, same as you had (and still have) some people saying that mp3 is not good enough or that DSLR are not going good enough...

How often? Once is enough. When you want it, you want it now. And they want it instantaneously or as close to that as possible.
Not even commenting this one, this is just ridiculous... Once is not enough, there is something called a tradeoff, I've heard engineers do it all the time!


The latency doesn't really change with faster bandwidths. The latency is from a combination of speed of light and switching delays. And it is pretty much fixed.
I've never said latency changes with bandwidth, I've said that the focus should change from improving the bandwidth to improving latency to a level where these solutions are working flawlessly.
Yes the minimum is fixed by the distance to the server, but as said earlier, the minimum latency is already good enough for game streaming, the issue here is QoS, this just requires more investment.

A more valid point was made by NTMBK: Maybe the networks are not built for it and the investments required are too big, but this is more of a business decision.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Latency for 4g is aprox 80 ms vs aprox 110 ms for 3g
http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/...w-did-verizon-att-sprint-and-t-mobile-compa-0
Not enough for serious fps but with 5g we should get there even for gaming.
My ping is 9ms on a 50/50mbit fiber
I think we are there already for all applications sans gaming.
Back at win 3.11 days we were using ms office and it took minutes to print a huge file and eg. scrolling in word was a pain. Compared to that we can execute most online apps with ease today with all the benefit.
 
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