Qualcomm has Snapdragon 8cx beating Core i5-8250U in PCMark 10

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DrMrLordX

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@moinmoin

The expectation is that it could take a year or so to get proper support for 8cx laptops from Linux. Rumour has it that they're "locked" to Windows (how that works, I don't know), but I don't see that as a major issue. The big problem is that 8cx simply doesn't have kernel support yet. The Adreno iGPU does, apparently, but everything else . . . ? We'll see.
 
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moinmoin

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One would think Google with their Chromebooks would be interested in 8cx. After all their insistence of hardware being supported in mainline kernel is what ensured the Adreno iGPU support is included in Linux.
 

Nothingness

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The expectation is that it could take a year or so to get proper support for 8cx laptops from Linux. Rumour has it that they're "locked" to Windows (how that works, I don't know), but I don't see that as a major issue. The big problem is that 8cx simply doesn't have kernel support yet. The Adreno iGPU does, apparently, but everything else . . . ? We'll see.
That long? That'd be disappointing and would disqualify those devices for me, I just can't stand Windows
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
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That long? That'd be disappointing and would disqualify those devices for me, I just can't stand Windows

Honestly, if you are looking for A76 supported by Linux, I would look for upcoming Rockchip products. One of those will find their way into a Pine64 product. Eventually 8cx may be supported - there's a lot of work being done to run Linux on the Win10 Snapdragon 835 and 850 laptops as we speak. I just wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. Qualcomm probably isn't cooperating, and Intel sure isn't.
 

soresu

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Honestly, if you are looking for A76 supported by Linux, I would look for upcoming Rockchip products. One of those will find their way into a Pine64 product. Eventually 8cx may be supported - there's a lot of work being done to run Linux on the Win10 Snapdragon 835 and 850 laptops as we speak. I just wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. Qualcomm probably isn't cooperating, and Intel sure isn't.
Not necessarily.

The Freedreno (open Adreno) driver has improved drastically in the last 1-2 years, and coupled with the promise of SD based Chromebooks - we could see some fairly high end products supporting it, though I've no idea how difficult it would be to flash a pure Linux build to them, they have put some degree of Linux app support in Chrome OS now though.
 

DrMrLordX

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@soresu

Freedreno already supports the Adreno 680 in the 8cx (I think). The question is whether or not the rest of the system will be bootable using existing ARM linux kernels. Plus we don't know what kind of bizarre secure boot-ish restrictions exist in these systems to prevent non-Windows operation.
 

Thala

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Nov 12, 2014
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@soresu

Freedreno already supports the Adreno 680 in the 8cx (I think). The question is whether or not the rest of the system will be bootable using existing ARM linux kernels. Plus we don't know what kind of bizarre secure boot-ish restrictions exist in these systems to prevent non-Windows operation.

On the previous generation of devices from Asus, Lenovo and HP (e.g. Snapdragon 835) you could just disable secure boot and boot from USB/file. In addition you could make your Windows partition smaller and install Linux on its own partition in parallel.
 

Shivansps

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One would think Google with their Chromebooks would be interested in 8cx. After all their insistence of hardware being supported in mainline kernel is what ensured the Adreno iGPU support is included in Linux.

PRICE, 8CX is a premium CPU. So they can only use it on super-premium stuff. There already Chromebooks with ARM cpus, like the S330.
 

DrMrLordX

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On the previous generation of devices from Asus, Lenovo and HP (e.g. Snapdragon 835) you could just disable secure boot and boot from USB/file. In addition you could make your Windows partition smaller and install Linux on its own partition in parallel.

So, in your opinion, do you think the 8cx machines will be able to boot the same distros that were bootable on the 835 and 850?

PRICE, 8CX is a premium CPU. So they can only use it on super-premium stuff. There already Chromebooks with ARM cpus, like the S330.

I was thinking the same thing. Though there are a few Chromebooks out there in the $900-$1000 range (paradoxically).
 

Thala

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So, in your opinion, do you think the 8cx machines will be able to boot the same distros that were bootable on the 835 and 850?

I was just implying that booting something is the least problem. But the deltas, certain device drivers aside, should be small compared to the current distros.
 

soresu

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PRICE, 8CX is a premium CPU. So they can only use it on super-premium stuff. There already Chromebooks with ARM cpus, like the S330.

The S330 uses an ancient MT8173 SoC with only 2x A72 big cores vs 4x A76 big cores in SD 855/8cx, even the clockspeed is significantly higher (on peak core) due to 7nm process use vs 28nm for MT8173.

Max speed difference could be more than 2x the MT8173 at peak.

Even with a RK3588 which will likely be clocked closer to MT8173, there is still a good 50-60% lead in IPC due to A76, not to mention the A55 vs A53 IPC improvement at low power range.
 

DrMrLordX

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I was just implying that booting something is the least problem. But the deltas, certain device drivers aside, should be small compared to the current distros.

Actually, the lack of a standard BIOS/EFI for pretty much any ARM system is kind of a hurdle for booting. I think?
 

Thala

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Actually, the lack of a standard BIOS/EFI for pretty much any ARM system is kind of a hurdle for booting. I think?

That applies to many SBCs but the devices we are talking about have pretty much standard ACPI compliant UEFI etc.
 

DrMrLordX

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Wasn't Windows phone used UEFI boot? And the previous generation hardware used UEFI also I believe.

That I don't know. But since UEFI was essentially a collaboration between MS and Intel, I'm not surprised.

That applies to many SBCs but the devices we are talking about have pretty much standard ACPI compliant UEFI etc.

Okay, that's not so bad for Linux then (except for secure boot).
 

Shivansps

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The S330 uses an ancient MT8173 SoC with only 2x A72 big cores vs 4x A76 big cores in SD 855/8cx, even the clockspeed is significantly higher (on peak core) due to 7nm process use vs 28nm for MT8173.

Max speed difference could be more than 2x the MT8173 at peak.

Even with a RK3588 which will likely be clocked closer to MT8173, there is still a good 50-60% lead in IPC due to A76, not to mention the A55 vs A53 IPC improvement at low power range.

But again, PRICE is the problem, they cant sell 8CX Chromebooks at the price of that S330, ARM problem right now is not matching X86 perf, they already can, they need to do that at a lower price, premium only will not get ARM anywhere. They also need MS to solve the x64 binary emulation ASAP.
 

Thala

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But again, PRICE is the problem, they cant sell 8CX Chromebooks at the price of that S330, ARM problem right now is not matching X86 perf, they already can, they need to do that at a lower price, premium only will not get ARM anywhere. They also need MS to solve the x64 binary emulation ASAP.

Thing is they already matching x86 performance at much lower power.
Any why x64 emulation? If you need 64 bit apps, chance is that you also need native performance. Besides Chromebooks are mostly about web-apps.
 
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Shivansps

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Thing is they already matching x86 performance at much lower power.

Im not so sure of that. So far ive only seem premium devices and cheap devices that has problems to match Atoms.

Chromebooks is one thing, but if ARM wants to get anywhere they need to take the main laptop segment, ARM can only do that in Windows, with Windows software that runs on x86 and x64. This is why they need higher perf (on emulator) and lower costs, otherwise they will always be a niche. And im not even starting to consider desktops.
 
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soresu

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But again, PRICE is the problem, they cant sell 8CX Chromebooks at the price of that S330, ARM problem right now is not matching X86 perf, they already can, they need to do that at a lower price, premium only will not get ARM anywhere. They also need MS to solve the x64 binary emulation ASAP.
Do we have an actual mm2 number for SD 855?

My bet would be it not being enormous. Pricing being bad is QCOM's thing.
 

soresu

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Any why x64 emulation? If you need 64 bit apps, chance is that you also need native performance. Besides Chromebooks are mostly about web-apps.
Thats an out dated viewpoint of Chrome OS, you can do Android apps on most and plain linux apps on several at this point.
 

CluelessOne

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Jun 19, 2015
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Thats an out dated viewpoint of Chrome OS, you can do Android apps on most and plain linux apps on several at this point.
And how does ARM compiled bare metal Linux does against regular x86 or x64 Linux fare in performance? Any benchmark link?
 

soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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And how does ARM compiled bare metal Linux does against regular x86 or x64 Linux fare in performance? Any benchmark link?
My point wasn't about performance so much as app compatibility.

I admit I don't have much idea about comparative numbers with ARM vs x64 on Chrome Linux workloads, but I would love to know personally.
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
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Chromebooks is one thing, but if ARM wants to get anywhere they need to take the main laptop segment, ARM can only do that in Windows, with Windows software that runs on x86 and x64. This is why they need higher perf (on emulator) and lower costs, otherwise they will always be a niche. And im not even starting to consider desktops.

Forget emulation, just forget it. Its is a stop-gap solution at best. The best dynamic translators i am aware of are still factor 2-3 slower than native. If we assume that ARM is 2x as effcient as x86, then with emulation you throw this advantage right out of the window ...period.
That does not mean, that applications are necessarily too slow for usage under emulation ...it is just that the advantage of ARM is gone.

When buying an ARM device you want to have highest performance in a power constrained device. Thats precisely what you get - when running native apps.
 
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