Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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DavidC1

Senior member
Dec 29, 2023
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We got more battery tests and QC lost by a huge margin and this is the Plus model with less cores.
It's very difficult for Windows devices to get to Apple's level. The latter's system is controlled top to bottom. Intel-Apple devices did better than most Intel-Windows devices too.
 

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,828
871
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We got more battery tests and QC lost by a huge margin and this is the Plus model with less cores.

Where is the incentive to buy these things? Slightly better battery life than the Intel/AMD laptops?

But they come with worse GPU's, emulation problems, and first gen bugs. Some apps flat out don't run.

That's not worth it. I''ll take the 12 hours of battery life instead of 15 if it means not having all of the above problems. How many people really have a use case for more than 12 hours battery life anyway?
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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The previous leak said that Qualcomm is adding HGEMM to the Adreno 830.

HGEMM is a kind of Tensor unit.
No, HGEMM (Half-precision General Matrix Multiplication) is a type of matrix math operation.

When they say they are adding it, they mean they are adding a new instruction to the Adreno GPU ISA.

This is consistent with ARM Ltd's "Total Compute" strategy for AI/ML across all of its separate compute silicon IPs (Cortex CPU, Mali GPU and Ethos NPU).
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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No, HGEMM (Half-precision General Matrix Multiplication) is a type of matrix math operation.

When they say they are adding it, they mean they are adding a new instruction to the Adreno GPU ISA.

This is consistent with ARM Ltd's "Total Compute" strategy for AI/ML across all of its separate compute silicon IPs (Cortex CPU, Mali GPU and Ethos NPU).
So everybody is pursuing a multi-engine AI strategy? I thought it was only Intel doing it.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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So everybody is pursuing a multi-engine AI strategy? I thought it was only Intel doing it.
Different silicon have different use cases.

An NPU is always going to be pretty limited (if not exclusive to) inference tasks.

They are designed to be super efficient, low power silicon that can perform some tasks at idle power (like voice recognition to wake the phone).

CPU and GPU on the other hand can handle meatier workloads like training, and are more versatile overall.
 

ikjadoon

Member
Sep 4, 2006
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Not much scientific. He mentions a good point that some battery life benchmarks can be artificially sanitized (e.g., all background apps closed, non-default power plans activated, etc.).

And the battery life, to date, has not impressed.

Here, I need to be clear: When I started using the MacBook Air, it was immediately obvious that something magical was happening when it came to uptime. This thing just ran and ran and ran, and it didn’t seem to matter what I did, the battery life was just always terrific. Where most PC makers tout “all-day battery life,” but don’t ever come close, the Mac was capable of two solid days of work on battery. In the end, I averaged about 15 hours. Really.

The first day I used the Yoga Slim, the battery lasted barely four and a half hours. I chalked that one up to my installing so many updates and apps, but it also put a troubling worry in the back of my brain. I was always going to pay attention to battery life. But now I was really going to pay attention.

Since then, it’s improved. I saw about 6 or 6.5 of uptime on both Tuesday and Wednesday. But then I worried it would stall there. Today, it’s late in the afternoon, dinner time, and I did have it plugged in for a 30-minute podcast recording. But looking at the uptime so far and doing some math based on what Windows now estimates—these things get more accurate over time, too, of course—I feel like it will land at about … yikes, 9 hours. OK. Something is happening here. Something positive.

...

But I can at least leave this on a positive note: I’d not mentioned battery life yet, in part because it was much lower than expected, undercutting what should be a core advantage, and in part because it’s just too soon to matter. But with battery life seemingly correcting itself, in part as my usage has, wait for it, become more real-world, I’m starting to calm down. I am starting to believe again, that everything will probably be OK.

//

JustJosh's review video of Snapdragon X laptops:


I'm stunned the "Qualcomm's website GPU driver won't install" got so bad, it borked the screen brightness → factory reset didn't fix it → laptop had to be replaced.

Then the Surface Laptop stopped charging with a type-C cable. And later shut down in the middle of usage inexplicably. I haven't seen other reviewers mention these issues (yet?).

Always have launch troubles on any brand-new platform, but this seems especially rough when Qualcomm has had three prior Windows on Arm SoCs and on major devices like the Surface Pro X.

I thought Meteor Lake was rough with BIOS updates drastically changing performance, lower IPC, inconsistent efficiency, etc. You only get one first-impression-that-is-actually-a-4th-impression-but-most-people-didn't-see-the-first-three.

//

I've updated the "IPC" chart with more data points and now per-system benchmarks instead of averages. Note that this means caches, cooling, DRAM, etc. are all different, so expect some variability.

It's also more sanely sorted by Pts / GHz.

CPUGB6.2 1T PtsPeak 1T Freq. (GHz)Pts / GHzPts / GHz %
Apple M4
3715​
4.400​
844​
118.7%​
Apple M3 Pro (12C)
3138​
4.056​
774​
108.8%​
Apple M2 Pro
2663​
3.504​
760​
106.9%​
Apple M1 Pro
2409​
3.220​
748​
105.2%​
Qualcomm X1E-80-100
2845​
4.000​
711​
100.0%
Arm Cortex-X4 (8G3 Galaxy)
2287​
3.390​
675​
94.9%​
Arm Cortex-X3 (8G2 Galaxy)
2107​
3.360​
627​
88.2%​
Arm Cortex-X2 (8+G1)
1806​
3.200​
564​
79.3%​
Intel i7-14900K
3243​
6.000​
541​
76.0%​
Arm Cortex-X1 (G3X G1)
1596​
2.995​
533​
74.9%​
Intel i9-12900HK
2611​
5.000​
522​
73.4%​
AMD 7950X
2975​
5.700​
522​
73.4%​
Intel i5-1355U
2595​
5.000​
519​
73.0%​
AMD 7840U
2562​
5.100​
502​
70.6%​
Intel i3-1215U
2082​
4.400​
473​
66.5%​
AMD 6800H
2063​
4.700​
439​
61.7%​
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,945
2,165
136
So everybody is pursuing a multi-engine AI strategy? I thought it was only Intel doing it.
As a more direct response to your question - Xilinx's XDNA NPU rounded out AMD's own AI/ML compute since Phoenix, giving them a similar CPU/GPU/NPU setup to ARM and Qualcomm.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
4,666
136
QCOM should strive at doing a single SKU with a single binned one rather than the multitude of SKUs they did.


It seems so. Very small shipments though. WARM won't change Windows PC significantly at near term.
That will happen when Qcomm has more designs, not ONE SOC design.

M1 moment for PCs but with AMD/Intel/Nvidia-esque marketing and product segmentation.

But there comes M2 generation from Qcomm.
 

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,828
871
126
What's really crazy is that the M4 is only found in a freaking tablet. Apple playing chess while the rest are playing checkers.
 

ikjadoon

Member
Sep 4, 2006
145
242
126
My rant on a lack of fanless options:

Fanless to me: a very constrained SoC TDP (e.g., 10W) with very low 1T SoC heat output (1-5W).

As of June 2024, not one Oryon design is fanless. Fans in Qualcomm's design. Fans in Oryon tablets. Fans in the X Plus models. For mainstream clients (i.e., computing needs much closer to a Chromebook vs a workstation or console), fanless has a lot of benefits:
  • Lower thermal output → much cooler overall
  • Zero dust maintenance → most won't open a laptop
  • Zero noise, always → akin to al keyboards, iOS / Android tablets, phones
  • Zero concern to clear paths for fan outlets / inlets
  • Fewer parts can fail (fans are up on the list of likely to fail first)
  • Slightly lighter (no heatpipes, heatsinks, nor fans)
  • Lower power draw (even at low RPMs, 2x fans can consume 100s of mW)
Fanless operation should a strong target for efficient devices. On a desktop, most would scoff at an power-hungry keyboard that required active cooling for "the best performance". But on laptops, we're used to the waste heat output.

And it's not just me. Qualcomm as a company used to promote its fanless designs ( emphasis mine):

Mar 2017 | Qualcomm Press Release

Each company is set to produce sleek, thin and fanless PCs running a Windows 10 experience with unparalleled LTE connectivity for an always connected, on the go experience.

Mar 2018 | Qualcomm Senior Director of Product Management

Always On, Always Connected PCs powered by Snapdragon are designed to be sleek and thin, supporting workloads for up to 20+ hours without slowing down performance. Our low-powered solution is engineered to create very little heat and doesn’t need a fan to stay cool.

Oct 2020 | Qualcomm launch video (a familiar face)

"8cx Gen 2 beats its competitors again with +18% greater system performance than a 10th generation Intel i5. At 7 Watts, our platform delivers +50% greater total system performance and +50% better battery life than competing solutions, allowing for a fanless, thin & light design, with multiple days of battery life."

Dec 2020 | Qualcomm SVP and GM of the mobile, compute and infrastructure business

“[…] the laptops these days are really moving towards mobile. The camera is super important. The audio is super important. The battery life is super important. Not having a fan is super important. Portability, thinness, connectivity, always-on always-connected, all those traits of mobile are moving to the PC.

And people say, imitation is the best form of flattery. Look at look what happened with the [Apple] M1. Their product pitch is almost a duplicate of what we've been saying for the past two or three years.”

Nov 2021 | Qualcomm Press Release & VP of Product Management

During the annual Snapdragon Tech Summit, Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. expanded the portfolio of solutions for Always On, Always Connected PCs with the introduction of the Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 compute platform, designed to deliver the performance and exceptional experiences users deserve in premium ultra-slim and fanless laptops.


"Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 builds on the technology that has transformed the PC industry, delivering premium experiences with breakthrough performance per watt, immersive camera and audio with enhanced AI-acceleration, lightning-fast 5G connectivity, and chip-to-cloud security in thin, fanless systems."

Jan 2022 | Qualcomm 2022 CES Presentation

“… we are excited about the power efficiency opportunity of the advanced Arm architecture to enable breakthrough experiences on lightweight, fanless devices. We look forward to our ongoing collaboration with Qualcomm …” - Mike Nash, HP Chief Technologist & Global Head, Customer Experience & Portfolio Strategy, Personal Systems

QC, for years: our WoA & Chromebook SoCs are ultra-efficient → 100% fanless designs
QC, for months: our Oryon SoC has fantastic perf / W → no fanless designs?

One NUVIA OEM, HP, was aiming for a fanless design. Even Intel P-core CPUs are in some fanless laptops, which is egregious as those SoCs have way too high TDPs lol.

//

Not unlike gaming at 120 Hz // driving an electric car // booting off an SSD, cool-running, performant fanless laptops are hard to appreciate before using them → once you do try it, it's kind of addicting → anything less later feels like a sad step backwards.

I appreciate fans when they're necessary. I'm a fan-atic in my desktop PC (10x 140mm fans tuned to 900RPM; 0 RPM modes all turned off to avoid heat-soak).

But just not in my laptop / keyboard / mouse.

// the other side

Qualcomm had hinted of new 8cx SoCs even after Oryon, but unsure whether that is still true after the Arm vs Qualcomm litigation. And perhaps the smaller Oryon variants (6C / 8C) will be fanless, but after seeing the lowered clocks on the X Plus, I'm hesitant to see what else might get cut.
 
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