Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[soresu]

The issue is that it should NOT be aftermarket.

.......

What it could be and what it is won't change based on the opinions of tech enthusiasts like us.

Electronics manufacturers like clearly defined market segments separating out different use cases to different products.

Because they make more money that way.

Hoping that the market is ever going to shift away from profit to a utopian tech ideal just isn't realistic.

Best case scenario you get a manufacturer that specifically makes a phone product in a manner like the Nintendo Switch, designed to be docked with ease to display/audio/network/input peripherals.

Such manufacturers and their products would still end up a curiosity to the consumer masses in general though, like the Framework PC (which I honestly think is great).

 

[NostaSeronx]

This is stupid. The 8 Elite is a phone product and also has an integrated modem you don’t need for PC’s. ...

The Snapdragon 8 Elite can be anything Qualcomm wants it to be. Certain PCs require modems for certain markets.

.......

What it could be and what it is won't change based on the opinions of tech enthusiasts like us.

Electronics manufacturers like clearly defined market segments separating out different use cases to different products.

Yeah, that is why they will segment. The power user platforms >$600 USD and the user platforms that are below it.

Since, January 8, 2013 the high-end mobile SoCs have always been capable of being PCs.
"Utilite2 delivers desktop-grade power and performance using a Snapdragon 600 processor."
to the 845 generation.
With the Snapdragon 845 line (845/850/855/855+/860/865/865+ :: All have desktop variants) having support for Windows Desktop PCs, it wasn't a laptop target.
8cx lineage (SDM1000) => premium Desktop (Snapdragon X)
845 lineage (SDM845) => affordable premium Desktop. (Snapdragon 8)
Snapdragon 845:

2x USB2.0 header is on the other side.
"Worked on bringup of the first Linux platform based google desktop with SDM845 Sanpdragon processor."
"Worked on SDM845 Snapdragon chipset based Windows Desktop Product as a modem test engineer which is commercialized in US market."

The main barrier for the old ones is performance.
2.8 GHz, A75 + 1.8 GHz, A55
4.32 GHz, Prime + 3.53 GHz, Performance

Penguin Edge™ IFC6720 = $499 for the platform
RB3 Gen1, 2019 = $449
RB5, 2020 = $485
RB6, 2022
RB3 Gen2/Lite, 2024 = $399/$389 <== Snapdragon 782/778

They are doing the above for an even smaller market.
Consumer (largest) -> Commercial (mid) -> Industrial (small)

Meanwhile an AMD Mendocino desktop: 1x USB Type-C® 5Gbps signaling rate; 2x USB Type-A 5Gbps signaling rate; 2x USB 2.0 Type-A; 1 headphone/microphone combo; 1 RJ-45
A single USB3.2 to USB3.2 IC can clear that up.

It will be really awkward to decide not to go minipc; https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/10371901?baseline=10361020
80 TOPs NPU => Viable for Copilot+ PCs, "The Snapdragon 8 Elite/SM8750 integrates Qualcomm's Secure Processing Unit[pluton]", so yeah it can ship on to latest greatest Microsoft Windows classification. The whole point of the affordable part is ubiquity. There is also Chrome Plus 2.0 AI stuff from May 2024 as well. Which the Snapdragon 8 Elite is already "tailored" for.

Another example: ECS LIVA Mini Box QC710 Desktop
SM7125 (720) == SC7180 && SC7180P (both 7c Gens)
SM7325 (778) == SC7280 (7c+ Gen3)
8c = 855, but no one seemed to go minipc with it. Which there is two, the 8c which is the die-harvested one of the 8cx and 8c which is the 855 part. Where the part that stayed unreleased was the 8c Gen3 which was SM8350(888).
+ .name = "Adreno 8c Gen 3",
+ .fw = {
+ [ADRENO_FW_SQE] = "a660_sqe.fw",
+ [ADRENO_FW_GMU] = "a660_gmu.bin",
It was done back then, it can be done again today.

 

[SpudLobby]

Microsoft announces Intel-powered Surface Pro 11 and Surface Laptop 7

Along with a new USB 4 dock, the Surface devices are designed for businesses.

www.theverge.com

Doing Lunar at > $1499 starting
And just for “business”

Remind me how MS isn’t committed to Arm and Snapdragon laptops would be too expensive, Qualcomm would go crazy with RAM pricing (also wrong and not on-package) etc.

 

[GTracing]

Remind me how MS isn’t committed to Arm and Snapdragon laptops would be too expensive, Qualcomm would go crazy with RAM pricing (also wrong and not on-package) etc.

In terms of Microsoft's commitment to ARM, the issue has always been about software support, not hardware.

The apple M1 launched over 4 years ago, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Rosetta 2 was better at launch than Prism is now. There's no excuse for Windows on ARM x86 emulation to be as bad as it is.

 

[SpudLobby]

In terms of Microsoft's commitment to ARM, the issue has always been about software support, not hardware.

The apple M1 launched over 4 years ago, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Rosetta 2 was better at launch than Prism is now. There's no excuse for Windows on ARM x86 emulation to be as bad as it is.

These two are not unrelated. By cordoning Intel Surface systems for “business” & coercing consumers into purchasing Arm-based Surface devices as their mainstream offering across the stack, they build developer support: it’s a valuable signal. The same thing is going to be true when they launch Surface devices with an AMD or Nvidia Cortex-based SoC which should come next year.

Hardware also absolutely was a problem in the past — less than software support in Windows natively and outside of it, but still. Now they have comparable ST at lower power — or similar to Intel’s budget breaking black project chip at less cost, and similar or more MT. You also just didn’t have many design wins in the past. Now there are as many Snapdragon laptops as Lunar Lake and Zen 5 at major retail channels and even going forward I think it will still be comparable.

 

[GTracing]

These two are not unrelated. By cordoning Intel Surface systems for “business” & coercing consumers into purchasing Arm-based Surface devices as their mainstream offering across the stack, they build developer support: it’s a valuable signal. The same thing is going to be true when they launch Surface devices with an AMD or Nvidia Cortex-based SoC which should come next year.

Hardware also absolutely was a problem in the past — less than software support in Windows natively and outside of it, but still. Now they have comparable ST at lower power — or similar to Intel’s budget breaking black project chip at less cost, and similar or more MT. You also just didn’t have many design wins in the past. Now there are as many Snapdragon laptops as Lunar Lake and Zen 5 at major retail channels and even going forward I think it will still be comparable.

I agree that making the surface lineup primarily ARM-based helps with software support to some extent, but it feels like more of a token gesture to me. An x86 translation layer that just works is 10x better than having apps with native ARM builds. Right now, buyers have to research which apps support Windows on ARM. And X Elite owners might be out of luck if they want to use a program or game that ends up being incompatible. Reducing the number of incompatible apps would help, but they really need a foolproof fallback. That falls on Microsoft to implement. It's as if the surface division is fully on board with Windows on ARM, but the kernel developers aren't. Or maybe Microsoft just didn't start the prism project early enough, which still falls under lack of commitment imo.

Anyway, I hope that the software support continues to improve. AVX2 support is already in beta. The X Elite hardware is impressive and more competition is good for consumers.

 

[MarkizSchnitzel]

@GTracing
Which apps are many consumers using that are x86 and run poorly on ARM?
We can exclude games, as that seems to be a separate market. The way I see it, most are not even bothering with PDF readers.

 

[GTracing]

@GTracing
Which apps are many consumers using that are x86 and run poorly on ARM?
We can exclude games, as that seems to be a separate market. The way I see it, most are not even bothering with PDF readers.

Leaving out games feels like a cop-out, lol. But there are still several apps that don't work on Snapdragon laptops: After effects, Illustrator, VirtualBox, AppleTV, VLC, and practically all printer drivers. That's just what I could find in 15 minutes.

 

[Hulk]

Just one opinion here but I am still using a Surface Laptop 2. I love it. It is the best laptop I've ever had.

But, as much as I love the Surface Laptop, having an ARM processor in it is a deal breaker for me. I'll go Asus or Dell for my next laptop.

 

[Tup3x]

Leaving out games feels like a cop-out, lol. But there are still several apps that don't work on Snapdragon laptops: After effects, Illustrator, VirtualBox, AppleTV, VLC, and practically all printer drivers. That's just what I could find in 15 minutes.

Illustrator is in beta and should work although it's not exactly native.
You have to use nightly build but technically VLC has support:

 

[igor_kavinski]

But, as much as I love the Surface Laptop, having an ARM processor in it is a deal breaker for me. I'll go Asus or Dell for my next laptop.

Microsoft Surface Laptop and Surface Pro Updated With Intel Lunar Lake

Microsoft has finally updated its Surface Laptop and Surface Pro 2-in-1. The refreshed Surface Laptop 11 is now powered by Intel's Lunar Lake chips, up to the Core Ultra 7 268V with 32 GB of LPDDR5X memory and the Arc 140V iGPU. The laptop continues to be available in 13.8-inch and 15-inch...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[GTracing]

Illustrator is in beta and should work although it's not exactly native.
You have to use nightly build but technically VLC has support:
View attachment 116806

Yeah, and maybe I was a bit harsh saying flat out that they dont work, but I think most people aren't interested in being beta testers.

 

[Hulk]

Microsoft Surface Laptop and Surface Pro Updated With Intel Lunar Lake

Microsoft has finally updated its Surface Laptop and Surface Pro 2-in-1. The refreshed Surface Laptop 11 is now powered by Intel's Lunar Lake chips, up to the Core Ultra 7 268V with 32 GB of LPDDR5X memory and the Arc 140V iGPU. The laptop continues to be available in 13.8-inch and 15-inch...

www.techpowerup.com

Thanks. Looks like I will be going with another Surface Laptop!

 

[Hulk]

Yeah, and maybe I was a bit harsh saying flat out that they dont work, but I think most people aren't interested in being beta testers.

The thing is, if you have been around Windows long enough you have done enough beta testing with actual x86 software, stepping up to ARM emulation adds a whole new level of beta testing on top of the "normal" Windows beta testing. No thanks. I like to fool around a bit here and there, but I also like to just get stuff done.

For all the faults of Windows, it has evolved to a pretty darn good state. I mean MS still does stupid things, like forcing Edge into Windows like a virus, but overall it runs well and runs everything. BTW, as I've stated in the past I would use Edge if it was removeable from Windows, but as it is, just on principle I can't use it.

User - Why can't I uninstall Edge from Windows?
MS - It's built into the OS.
User - That was a purposeful decision, it's like the ONLY thing you can't install. You're trying to force us to use it. Why?
MS - <crickets>

 

[SpudLobby]

In terms of Microsoft's commitment to ARM, the issue has always been about software support, not hardware.

The apple M1 launched over 4 years ago, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Rosetta 2 was better at launch than Prism is now. There's no excuse for Windows on ARM x86 emulation to be as bad as it is.

Yes R2 was better but AVX2 is coming to PRISM soon.

 

[SpudLobby]

https://support.wacom.com/hc/en-us/articles/23838303808407-Does-Wacom-have-a-driver-for-PCs-that-run-Windows-11-on-ARM-processors-e-g-Snapdragon-X

 

[Doug S]

In terms of Microsoft's commitment to ARM, the issue has always been about software support, not hardware.

The apple M1 launched over 4 years ago, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Rosetta 2 was better at launch than Prism is now. There's no excuse for Windows on ARM x86 emulation to be as bad as it is.

They did an ARM version of Windows back in the Windows 8 days then abandoned it. I don't think I would assume that Microsoft's commitment to ARM is any stronger than it was last time.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out Qualcomm funded Microsoft's entire ARM porting effort this time around. What happens if Qualcomm decides they aren't getting the return they hoped for and they decide that's no longer worth it? They can still justify the custom cores based on smartphone SoC sales, they don't need Windows on ARM for that.

Windows on ARM has always been a solution looking for a problem. Qualcomm's stuff may have a bit of a power advantage today, but that could go away in an instant if AMD and/or Intel do better on their designs, or Intel gets their fab act together. Without a power advantage why would anyone buy an ARM PC to run Windows even if all the software shortcomings were addressed?

 

[SpudLobby]

They did an ARM version of Windows back in the Windows 8 days then abandoned it. I don't think I would assume that Microsoft's commitment to ARM is any stronger than it was last time.

I mean, I think that’s already false demonstrably. Lunar Lake surfaces are only “for business” for instance. PRISM will soon emulate AVX2. They’re contracting AMD for an Arm chip. Nvidia is going to enter.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out Qualcomm funded Microsoft's entire ARM porting effort this time around. What happens if Qualcomm decides they aren't getting the return they hoped for and they decide that's no longer worth it? They can still justify the custom cores based on smartphone SoC sales, they don't need Windows on ARM for that.

Windows on ARM has always been a solution looking for a problem.

The gain is expanded competition and namely competition from firms that either have better IP in CPUs and SoC power management or GPU IP or even both.

Qualcomm's stuff may have a bit of a power advantage today, but that could go away in an instant if AMD and/or Intel do better on their designs,

Lmao we’ve heard this song for 10 years. They tried with Lunar Lake and it was a limited part with high costs that just matched Qualcomm’s much cheaper, more scalable screw-up implementation. Intel’s A game is expensive and matches Qualcomm’s B-/C+ game. Look at Oryon V2. I doubt Intel is getting a 50% power reduction throughout the curve for Panther Lake ST — if anything it might get worse given they’re backing off some cost structure for it per Exist50. And Oryon V3 is what is coming to the next laptop chip, not V2. I suspect Qualcomm will have a battery lead on Panther Lake and much more responsiveness + more ST on the midrange parts.

or Intel gets their fab act together.

I would hope for this but it’s not going to solve their design issues. Look at Intel on N3.

Without a power advantage why would anyone buy an ARM PC to run Windows even if all the software shortcomings were addressed?

Again, seriously doubt 18A being as good good as N3E/P or a bit better on clocks (likely) will paper over the Intel design issues.

Also Nvidia/MediaTek SoCs are another reason why. X925 is about as good as Oryon V2, which is Lunar Lake ST ranges but at half the power and less area. Functionally that will feel more responsive for similar battery life with ST and their GPU IP and drivers + SW will be a sell.

 

[Raqia]

They did an ARM version of Windows back in the Windows 8 days then abandoned it. I don't think I would assume that Microsoft's commitment to ARM is any stronger than it was last time.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out Qualcomm funded Microsoft's entire ARM porting effort this time around. What happens if Qualcomm decides they aren't getting the return they hoped for and they decide that's no longer worth it? They can still justify the custom cores based on smartphone SoC sales, they don't need Windows on ARM for that.

Windows on ARM has always been a solution looking for a problem. Qualcomm's stuff may have a bit of a power advantage today, but that could go away in an instant if AMD and/or Intel do better on their designs, or Intel gets their fab act together. Without a power advantage why would anyone buy an ARM PC to run Windows even if all the software shortcomings were addressed?

The first "Windows on ARM" which resembled iOS and Android lacked legacy software compatibility, arguably the biggest reason to use Windows. The current iteration is more sensible in at least emphasizing this with a new ABI designed around compatibility with emulation, a full toolchain in Visual Studio, and an improving emulator (R2 had a much leaner set of mostly personal use oriented software to deal with, and not as much legacy enterprise business software e.g. stuff like Bloomberg Terminal or Excel and workbooks with legacy VBA scripts.)

ARM implementers will likely continue to have an advantage so long as x86 doesn't slim down its support of legacy cruft. There's nothing in theory to keep x86 from being on par with ARM in terms of PPA even with this, but the validation of all of this is very expensive and time consuming...

 

[coercitiv]

I mean, I think that’s already false demonstrably. Lunar Lake surfaces are only “for business” for instance. PRISM will soon emulate AVX2. They’re contracting AMD for an Arm chip. Nvidia is going to enter.

Microsoft says many things, means few of them, and even fewer become reality. I would love to see a growing ARM offering (QC, Nvidia, AMD) and continued support from MS, the competition alone would be great for the ecosystem, but I have zero trust in Microsoft's ability and willingness to execute.

 

[DZero]

Microsoft says many things, means few of them, and even fewer become reality. I would love to see a growing ARM offering (QC, Nvidia, AMD) and continued support from MS, the competition alone would be great for the ecosystem, but I have zero trust in Microsoft's ability and willingness to execute.

If Microsoft fails now, ARM will find a way to appear, even as Android deskptop mode. Also there is Apple,

Considering how x86 is having strong issues, ARM has a golden chance to appear.

 

[Tup3x]

Looks like Fortinet is finally going to release their native Windows ARM client soon. It's in beta and should become available 1H 2025. More options for me. Next X Elite is looking more and more attractive.

 

[Magio]

I just wish Qualcomm/OEMs were doing a better job of making these X Elite based laptops Linux compatible. I have few doubts at this point that X Elite Gen 2 will be extremely capable chips, perhaps even as good as Apple Silicon, and I'd absolutely be willing to endure some growing pains with Linux on ARM...

But as things are that's not even an option considering how broken everything Qualcomm based is when running Linux (if it even runs).

 

[Doug S]

I just wish Qualcomm/OEMs were doing a better job of making these X Elite based laptops Linux compatible. I have few doubts at this point that X Elite Gen 2 will be extremely capable chips, perhaps even as good as Apple Silicon, and I'd absolutely be willing to endure some growing pains with Linux on ARM...

But as things are that's not even an option considering how broken everything Qualcomm based is when running Linux (if it even runs).

There's no standard in ARM PC land the way there is in x86 PC land for Linux to target. Read some of the early posts from Hector Martin & company when they did the Mac M1 port. A lot of the difficulty wasn't in reverse engineering what Apple did, but in trying to figure out how to represent it in Linux that had previously only supported various embedded and other custom ARM stuff. They noted that if others started making ARM PCs there would be a lot of effort to bring up each platform unless the industry got together and standardized in the way that IBM sort of forced standardization on x86 PCs (by being the defacto "standard" that followers like Compaq and Dell had to design to, and Intel eventually took ownership of)

So its probably more a symptom of "Qualcomm beancounters don't see any return for the effort required to make running Linux easier". It will probably require some fairly involved third party effort like the Asahi folks. Neither Qualcomm (nor Nvidia, if/when they release their own) have been particularly noteworthy for their help for open source projects, so it would probably end up requiring a lot of reverse engineering. Except instead of reverse engineering how it runs another Unix (macOS) it would be reverse engineering how it runs Windows, which may make things more difficult.

 

[jdubs03]

Another bump to DL/UL bandwidth.

Qualcomm's new X85 modem blends AI and 5G for smarter, faster connections

Qualcomm’s Snapdragon X85 is its next-gen 5G modem, set to power its new flagship chip with AI-driven features.

www.androidcentral.com

I know it’s just theoretical, but still a 25% increase. And it’ll be twice as fast in theoretical bandwidth compared to the Apple C2 releasing Q3 next year. Granted this won’t be in actual devices until Q4 this year.