Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[FlameTail]

Some Snapdragon X Elite/Plus SKUs do not have Dual Core Boost? (Accotding to the leak)

NO WAY. I HATE THIS.

Without the core boost, the single threaded performance is GUTTED. Atleast they should have given the lower end SKUs a 'Single Core Boost', while reserving 'Dual Core Boost' for the higher end SKUs.

 

[SarahKerrigan]

Some Snapdragon X Elite/Plus SKUs do not have Dual Core Boost? (Accodring to the leak)

NO WAY. I HATE THIS.

Without the core boost, the single threaded performance is GUTTED. Atleast they should have given the lower end SKUs a 'Single Core Boost', while reserving 'Dual Core Boost' for the higher end SKUs.

I mean, it's still a solid improvement over 8cx Gen 3 and competitive with the x86 midrange. The targeted Geekbench numbers seem to exceed the 7640U by a solid margin, for instance.

 

[Gideon]

Some Snapdragon X Elite/Plus SKUs do not have Dual Core Boost? (Accodring to the leak)

NO WAY. I HATE THIS.

Without the core boost, the single threaded performance is GUTTED. Atleast they should have given the lower end SKUs a 'Single Core Boost', while reserving 'Dual Core Boost' for the higher end SKUs.

Yeah, even Apple never gutted the ST performance of it's lesser SKUs to that degree, a really poor move from Qualcomm IMO (if true).

 

[FlameTail]

Even Olrak agrees:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1782765359658885563

My displeasure is immense, and my day is ruined.

 

[Gideon]

I mean, it's still a solid improvement over 8cx Gen 3 and competitive with the x86 midrange. The targeted Geekbench numbers seem to exceed the 7640U by a solid margin, for instance.

The MT numbers beat it by a very decent amount (10 big cores really is great) but the ST numbers are actually about the same:

Geekbench Search - Geekbench

That's still respectable for sure, especially considering that the bulk of mainstream AMD's laptops will continue to be Zen 4 based for a while, just nowhere near the revolution that was hyped up.

I do agree though, that the x86 incumbents need to improve upon their battery life for this to count. The X Plus can probably run nearly as well in a fanless chassis only losing some MT perf.

An average Joe would take a 20-30% battery life gain any day of the week over a 20-30% of increase ST performance. Particularly if the laptop is silent and not too warm.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Some Snapdragon X Elite/Plus SKUs do not have Dual Core Boost? (Accotding to the leak)

NO WAY. I HATE THIS.

Without the core boost, the single threaded performance is GUTTED. Atleast they should have given the lower end SKUs a 'Single Core Boost', while reserving 'Dual Core Boost' for the higher end SKUs.

It's QCOM😂. We should have seen it coming given their heritage on Mobile SoCs.

That's still respectable for sure, especially considering that the bulk of mainstream AMD's laptops will continue to be Zen 4 based for a while, just nowhere near the revolution that was hyped up.

If we are to believe Adroc and Kepler (iirc), Escher was canned and bin KRK (243) took its place. If so, AMD will have a more competitive part, although QCOM will probably have the edge on battery life.

If anything, I worry about Intel because neither RPL 282 nor ARL 2821 will be able to put a good fight against Snap X Plus. Be it in performance or battery life.

I do agree though, that the x86 incumbents need to improve upon their battery life for this to count. The X Plus can probably run nearly as well in a fanless chassis only losing some MT perf.

Agreed. Perf/W at low power levels is a big trump card for QCOM, specially if they can win some fanless designs. At the end of the day, computers are already fast enough for your average joe and, as you said, they will value Smartphone like mobility more than increased performance at higher levels.

 

[SarahKerrigan]

The MT numbers beat it by a very decent amount (10 big cores really is great) but the ST numbers are actually about the same:

Geekbench Search - Geekbench

That's still respectable for sure, especially considering that the bulk of mainstream AMD's laptops will continue to be Zen 4 based for a while, just nowhere near the revolution that was hyped up.

I do agree though, that the x86 incumbents need to improve upon their battery life for this to count. The X Plus can probably run nearly as well in a fanless chassis only losing some MT perf.

An average Joe would take a 20-30% battery life gain any day of the week over a 20-30% of increase ST performance. Particularly if the laptop is silent and not too warm.

The revolution that was hyped up was more for the Elite, FWIW, and performance for that part continues to look very solid. The Plus is a deliberately nuked midrange model. With that in mind, is "matches an upper-midrange AMD part's ST and beats it at MT" really so bad? It's certainly a more favorable lineup than Win/ARM has had in its entire history.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Is Adreno 740 DX12U compatible? I know it has support for RT (With BVH builder too iirc) and VRS. But does it support Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback?

There's also the matter of GPU driven rendering using DirectX Work Graphs, which are only supported on RX 7000+ (RDNA 3) and Nvidia Ampere +. Intel Arc seemingly doesn't support it (Or Intel hasn't figured out driver enablement yet). Would be very surprised if Adreno support it.

Feels like Adreno is the weakest point of an stellar SoC due to how behind and slow QCOM is to adopt and support new Desktop class features. They'll need to be more aggressive on future GFX IP. GPU driver support will be another interesting matter to keep an eye on.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Is Adreno 740 DX12U compatible?

no.

But does it support Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback?

not in the correct way no.

and performance for that part continues to look very solid.

Against year old parts, absolutely.

 

[Gideon]

The Plus is a deliberately nuked midrange model. With that in mind, is "matches an upper-midrange AMD part's ST and beats it at MT" really so bad? It's certainly a more favorable lineup than Win/ARM has had in its entire history.

I agree overall, but as an enthusiast, It's my hobby to moan about marketing decisions "nuking" engineering achievements. I'd much rather have 8 (or even 6) cores wit a still a single-core boost (leave 2-core for Elite if needed), than 10 cores and no boost.

Against year old parts, absolutely.

And as adroc mentioned 7640U laptops have been out for a year, by the time this arrives.

 

[FlameTail]

It's QCOM😂. We should have seen it coming given their heritage on Mobile SoCs.

Well, then they are setting themselves up for failure in the WoA space. They can't win with this kind of attitude. If Qualcomm is so arrogant, I will not feel sorry for them when Nvidia joins WoA and pummel them.

If Qualcomm really wanted to segment X Elite and X Plus so bad, then they could have done:

1) 'Dual Core Boost' for X Elite, and 'Single Core Boost' for X Plus.

2) 4.2 GHz Core Boost for X Elite, and a reduced 4.0-3.8 GHz Core Boost for X Plus

I would have preferred if they had done only one of the two, but I could tolerate a combination of both .

Instead we have no Core Boost for X Plus, and the it's capped at a measly 3.4 GHz.

What's gonna happen to the Purwa part? Is it going to be capped at 3 GHz or something?

What is this? A circus?

 

[FlameTail]

Feels like Adreno is the weakest point of an stellar SoC due to how behind and slow QCOM is to adopt and support new Desktop class features. They'll need to be more aggressive on future GFX IP. GPU driver support will be another interesting matter to keep an eye on

And that's what Nvidia's greatest strength is. If Cortex X5 Blackhawk turns out to be decent, then Nvidia's ARM SoC is gonna pummel Qualcomm for sure.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

no.

not in the correct way no.

Ooof!

Well, such things are a bit irrelevant for a integrated laptop part right now. But the Adreno team will seriously need to quickly catch-up with others if they want to stay competitive. Specially given AMD and Intel will offer solid GFX IPs jumps in the upcoming months/year. Intel, specially, will basically jump 2 GFX IPs in the space of 1.5 year.

Well, then they are setting themselves up for failure in the WoA space. They can't win with this kind of attitude. If Qualcomm is so arrogant, I will not feel sorry for them when Nvidia joins WoA and pummel them.

What's gonna happen to the Purwa part? Is it going to be capped at 3 GHz or something?

I think it's fine in the long run. But I do agree it's very disappointing.

As for Purwa, given the Snap X leak, probably will be a low clocked part, yes. And I'm now waiting even bigger cuts for it. I did say some time ago that QCOM is very bad with mid/low end parts. They cut down too aggressively.

And that's what Nvidia's greatest strength is. If Cortex X5 Blackhawk turns out to be decent, then Nvidia's ARM SoC is gonna pummel Qualcomm for sure.

Both AMD and Nvidia will have much better prospects on WoA due to their mature GFX IP and software stack. As I said to Adroc, Adreno team will need to play catch-up quickly.

This is an area where the Desktop GPU arch heritage helps a lot Nvidia and AMD. While QCOM Mobile GPU arch heritage is a con for them. Both markets are at odds with regards to features and design goals.

 

[FlameTail]

View attachment 97635
This numbering system is very interesting.

Tiers, SKUs, Variants.

What constitutes as an SKU, and what is a Variant?

View attachment 97636
View attachment 97637

Any ideas?

 

[FlameTail]

As @adroc_thurston said, the fmax of X Elite has indeed been reduced from 4.3 GHz to 4.2 GHz.

 

[FlameTail]

X Plus based on the same Phoenix die. What is Purwa then?

"Snapdragon X" ?

Semiaccurate mentions an "X Pro". I think it's just speculation on their part.

Because it makes no sense to call the 8-core part "Pro", when the 10-core part is "Plus".

Pro > Plus

 

[FlameTail]

Well, such things are a bit irrelevant for a integrated laptop part right now. But the Adreno team will seriously need to quickly catch-up with others if they want to stay competitive. Specially given AMD and Intel will offer solid GFX IPs jumps in the upcoming months

Also the compute aspect of Adreno is weak. Chips&Cheese investigation has proved that.

Inside Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1’s iGPU: Adreno Gets Big

Mobile SoCs have come a long way over the past eight years.

chipsandcheese.com

If you compare Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 (Adreno 750) vs Exynos 2400 (12 CU RDNA3);

Snapdragon wins in GPU-Graphics benchmarks, but loses in GPU-Compute benchmarks.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

"Snapdragon X" ?

Semiaccurate mentions an "X Pro". I think it's just speculation on their part.

Because it makes no sense to call the 8-core part "Pro", when the 10-core part is "Plus".

Pro > Plus

So there will be:

- Snapdragon X Elite
- Snapdragon X Plus
- Snapdragon X

And all of them will have variants and different SKUs that will differ by the number salad QCOM came up with?

I'm sorry Intel and AMD for ever criticizing yours naming scheme.

 

[adroc_thurston]

If Cortex X5 Blackhawk turns out to be decent,

it's poo.

then Nvidia's ARM SoC is gonna pummel Qualcomm for sure.

it's a Tegra.
Good Tegra can not exist.

As @adroc_thurston said, the fmax of X Elite has indeed been reduced from 4.3 GHz to 4.2 GHz.

rip bozo

 

[FlameTail]

The revolution that was hyped up was more for the Elite, FWIW, and performance for that part continues to look very solid. The Plus is a deliberately nuked midrange model. With that in mind, is "matches an upper-midrange AMD part's ST and beats it at MT" really so bad? It's certainly a more favorable lineup than Win/ARM has had in its entire history.

You are guys are forgetting that most apps on WoA will run via emulation.

Thus, it is essential that Qualcomm should have a ST performance advantage over it's x86 rivals.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

You are guys are forgetting that most apps on WoA will run via emulation.

Thus, it is essential that Qualcomm should have a ST performance advantage over it's x86 rivals.

Surface level apps that most consumers run when using a computer are already Arm compatible. So it's fine for that

QCOM problem will be against professional stuff and gaming software. It will be an uphill battle for adoption and Arm here will be a con for consumers wanting to use their PC for work software or gaming.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Thus, it is essential that Qualcomm should have a ST performance advantage over it's x86 rivals.

The issue really is that the efficiency delta against the actual 2024 x86 parts isn't huge.

 

[gdansk]

Plus = Minus
Elite still looks OK, however.

 

[Gideon]

The issue really is that the efficiency delta against the actual 2024 x86 parts isn't huge.

OT, but Does Strix bring any relevant light load (e.g web browsing) efficiency improvements? Phoenix was otherwise awesome but rather dissapointing in that regard

 

[adroc_thurston]

but Does Strix bring any relevant light load (e.g web browsing) efficiency improvements?

yea.
Didn't win lotta laptops just_because.

Phoenix was otherwise awesome but rather dissapointing in that regard

oh hell no the worst iGP bump in forever.