Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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StinkyPinky

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That 16" Samsung laptop looks great, lots of ports, headphone jack, and 120Hz oled.

But....weirdly, UFS storage. Wtf. I thought it was a typo but it really does


Weird design choice. What's the reliability of that?
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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That 16" Samsung laptop looks great, lots of ports, headphone jack, and 120Hz oled.

But....weirdly, UFS storage. Wtf. I thought it was a typo but it really does


Weird design choice. What's the reliability of that?
Yeah, the Galaxy Book Edge is bizarre...
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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That 16" Samsung laptop looks great, lots of ports, headphone jack, and 120Hz oled.

But....weirdly, UFS storage. Wtf. I thought it was a typo but it really does


Weird design choice. What's the reliability of that?
it’s UFS 4 though. UFS 4 is good, just as good as like a reasonable PCIE Gen 4 SSD, prolly more power efficient too than your modal SSD.

For context btw, with UFS 4 Samsung pulled ahead of Apple’s iPhone NVME storage speeds in random and sequential read/write now. UFS 3.1 had them similar but it’s way ahead now. That’s an iPhone, yes, but lol, this stuff is fine.
 
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FlameTail

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The issue is that storage has a higher chance of failure than memory (RAM). So if that soldered UFS fails, the entire motherboard will have to be replaced.

But then Apple also uses soldered storage...
 
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FlameTail

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Is the ARM/Qualcomm stock price rising? Anybody keeping tabs on wall street?

These are impressive claims.

I asked Amon what he thinks about Arm CEO Rene Haas's recent statement that he expects Arm chips to comprise 50% of the Windows PC market within the next five years and whether that is a realistic goal.
I wonder what Qualcomm-ARM relationship is like right now. With the lawsuit in between them... are they frenemies?
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Snapdragon X Elite in a new convertible form factor;

ASUS just announced three new PCs for creators set to ship in the second half of 2024.
Among those new devices is the ProArt PZ13, a convertible PC powered by a Snapdragon X processor.
The ProArt PZ13 also has a 13-inch 3K OLED display, a kickstand, and a 70Wh battery.
Seems like a decent laptop?
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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The issue is that storage has a higher chance of failure than memory (RAM). So if that soldered UFS fails, the entire motherboard will have to be replaced.

But then Apple also uses soldered storage...
soldiered storage is for easily replaceable reasons wrt cost because it doesn’t really offer any gains in power/perf unlike RAM. reliability part is kind of a meme these days.
Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 rumour



Why is the E-core running at 70% of the P-core's clock speed, and that too at a whopping 3.0 GHz!?

What are they doing?
Arm A7x cores were doing 2.8-3.2GHz for “5 cores” on the 8 Gen 3 already? And those (well A715) things at high clocks in the 8 Gen 2 were still 1.5-2W cores. Idk the peak clocks they’re rated for is whatever in this. It’s on N3E too, so.
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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This is what the CPU landscape is going to look like for the foreseeable future.

Considering this, what kind of CPU ST performance uplift should X Elite G2 / Oryon V2 have?

I was previously saying X Elite G2 coming in 2025Q4 (rumoured), would need atleast 50% ST uplift to stay competitive with Zen5/Zen6/Arrow Lake/Panther Lake.

But considering how Zen5 and LionCove turned out to be; 16% and 14% IPC respectively, far from the ST performance slayers they were hyped up to be...

I think a GB6 score of ~4000 points (aka a ~35% uplift) would be fine for X Elite G2. That would be better than Strix Point/Arrow Lake, but also likely better than Strix Point successor/Panther Lake.

But 4000 points is only matching Apple M4. Apple will unveil the M5 in 2025Q4 shortly after Qualcomm unveils X Elite G2. I guess M5 will do like 4500 points (15% better than M4). So isn't Qualcomm staying behind M4 an L?

Yes and no. Firstly, Qualcomm will be announcing X Elite G2 before Apple announces M5, so that way they can claim a figurative win against Apple.

Secondly, does it even matter if they cannot match Apple's ST leadership? They will be still better than their direct competitors (Intel/AMD/ARM).

Thirdly, to match Apple M5 would require a 50% ST uplift for X Elite G2 from X Elite. That is quite unlikely to happen in a single generation, consideration how IPC gains have come to a crawl across the whole industry. Perhaps Nuvia may surprise us, but I am not going to indulge on excessive hopium.
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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I hope Oryon V2 also brings a substantial power reduction;


If you take a measuring ruler to this graph of Oryon V1, you can see that the power consumption increased by roughly 50% (9W->14W) for that last 10% of frequency (3.8 GHz -> 4.2 GHz).

So the Oryon architects have an easy opportunity to cut the power consumption by 1/3rd, if they reduce the frequency by 10%.

4.2 GHz = 100% power
3.8 GHz = 66.66% power

Now, if we say Oryon V1 was ported to N3P (the node Oryon V2 will presumably use), then we get a 20% power reduction.



4.2 GHz - Oryon V1 - N4P = 100% power
3.8 GHz - Oryon V1 - N4P = 66% power
3.8 GHz - Oryon V1 - N3P = 53% power

So by reducing the frequency by 10%, and going from N4P -> N3P, the power consumption is almost halved!

Now, this gives them a solid foundation to significantly increase IPC in Oryon V2, without blowing up the power consumption.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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Half the power (has to be package or platform, which is good that they’ve improved there because the P Core didn’t get that much alone) with similar ST to Meteor Lake is a great result and it’s awesome to see Intel emphasizing stuff like this — SoC and packaging (power delivery) and ST perf/W which is very important, unlike AMD.

However this also, as I predicted, means they aren’t going to match an M3’s ST perf/W, which is a similar size on N3B. In fact this will just get them in line with the X Elite and maybe not even that depending on H and U skus and other things. But it does put them way ahead of Zen 4 and at at least a tolerable and sane level of performance/W.





As predicted, LNL is not really a threat on the merits alone, and Qualcomm probably has a cost advantage. With no emulation though and better GPU drivers, and the same design wins + more, LNL will be a good chip. But strategically here I’d rather be QC — they clearly have a better architecture at a core and SoC level.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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The most obvious way you can tell QC has a better architecture is that, like Apple, they really can just scale well with both core counts and idle power. They don’t even have E Cores yet, and when they do that’ll be another boost here even if is just shrunken P Cores (see AMD’s thing which does give them efficiency boosts at some clocks).

Intel is going to rely very heavily on their E Cores I think way more than Apple does, and they probably won’t quite match Arm’s or Apples and quite frankly, I suspect that Qualcomm’s P Cores (including SoC power anyways) are about as efficient at the same performance level — which is another key difference between Intel’s P and Cortex X, Apple’s cores, and Qualcomm’s which actually still can perform well going pretty low. Apple’s E Cores have a genuine lead in their case over the P cores, but the A7x vs X lead is a bit smaller and a bit more about area and needing every last drop for phones — if any of these three wanted to ship P Cores only in laptops, they could still get solid battery results (diminished for Apple for sure ofc) albeit it’s a less area-efficient way to do things.

This is made most obvious by…. Qualcomm’s own claims. They can ship a 12C standard part that can compete with Intel’s LNL and then AMD’s Strix on both ends.

Anyway, on some level Intel still has to fix their ringbus and P core issues, or they need to move to a different fabric structure. LNL is a good crutch though and an excellent step forward.



Before someone says this is what Apple does — that is false, on MacOS. There is a ramping and software (with GCD, a hierarchy of QoS) element to core utilization but “most real workloads” do not stay isolated to the E Cores, you can just watch this yourself in light use. They get a ton of use but it’s not this dramatic. The reason Intel will make a different tradeoff is because their P cores and the ring they’re on are too bloated, and also don’t scale down very well, and their E Cores are faster than Apple’s*.

*Apple E core Spec results are like in the 2.5-3.5 range around .5-.8W, Intel’s MTL LP E Cores are similar at peak, but drawing 5+W. LNL Skymont LPE cores give a 1.7x perf uplift iso-power or a 2x uplift at more power. Putting them at like 5.5 to 6.5 SpecInt performance, depending on power.

Interesting times ahead tbh.
 
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SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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I hope Oryon V2 also brings a substantial power reduction;

View attachment 100592
If you take a measuring ruler to this graph of Oryon V1, you can see that the power consumption increased by roughly 50% (9W->14W) for that last 10% of frequency (3.8 GHz -> 4.2 GHz).
Yep. But that’s an extension of the curve, man. What matters is that their performance/W below that is a quite steeper curve relative to the others and with a low power floor. Check out what I pointed out about LNL’s ST power reduction. Intel will be closer as predicted but probably not on par fully and using a more expensive part with less MT to get there, and Panther Lake isn’t a big core change either, more about using 18A. Will also likely come after Qualcomm.

QC moving to N3E and improving the phydes of the Oryon core should be pretty straightforward improvement aside from an IPC boost.

After all the neuroticism here which as I said was overdone in light of Intel/AMD roadmaps and the fact that Qualcomm is already shipping real product, I think now it looks even worse after Zen 5. Lunar Lake and Intel is an issue, but one that has other conundrums (like MT or cost).

Arm with Nvidia is probably the single biggest issue QC could have and the only reason to doom.


So the Oryon architects have an easy opportunity to cut the power consumption by 1/3rd, if they reduce the frequency by 10%.

4.2 GHz = 100% power
3.8 GHz = 66.66% power

Now, if we say Oryon V1 was ported to N3P (the node Oryon V2 will presumably use), then we get a 20% power reduction.

View attachment 100594
View attachment 100595
4.2 GHz - Oryon V1 - N4P = 100% power
3.8 GHz - Oryon V1 - N4P = 66% power
3.8 GHz - Oryon V1 - N3P = 53% power

So by reducing the frequency by 10%, and going from N4P -> N3P, the power consumption is almost halved!

Now, this gives them a solid foundation to significantly increase IPC in Oryon V2, without blowing up the power consumption.
 
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