Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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Delusion or do they have an actual plan to invade PC users' homes and offices?

That's like saying that 50% Windows PCs have no need for dGPUs. AMD/Intel will probably not make drivers for their dGPUs available on QC's platform and Nvidia is more likely to pair their dGPU with their own ARM CPU. The only other explanation seems to be that QC will have at least a Geforce 7070 class dGPU by 2029.
 
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FlameTail

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View attachment 100725

Delusion or do they have an actual plan to invade PC users' homes and offices?
You should see the interview with ARM CEO Rene Haas;
This interview reveals that Windows-on-Arm hasn't just been a Microsoft-Qualcomm affair all along, but that ARM the company itself has been working on it behind the scenes.

Also ARM's Computex Keynote;

That's like saying that 50% Windows PCs have no need for dGPUs.
Isn't it like 80% of all PCs (laptop+desktop) don't have dGPUs?
AMD/Intel will probably not make drivers for their dGPUs available on QC's platform and Nvidia is more likely to pair their dGPU with their own ARM CPU.
Since Nvidia's PC CPU/SoC ambitions are going to be ARM based, that also contributes to the 50% marketshare figure claimed by Rene Haas.
 
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FlameTail

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Geekerwan video about Snapdragon X Elite (not review):


Highlights:


Does Windows not have a Unified Memory model like MacOS?
 

FlameTail

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A look at Qualcomm's 2024 Computex booth:


They showed OEM laptops, the Dev Kit, Gaming on X Elite, examples of AI models running on device, examples of apps maling use of the NPU, BIOS/UEFI, List of compatible apps, etc....
 

eek2121

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View attachment 100725

Delusion or do they have an actual plan to invade PC users' homes and offices?

That's like saying that 50% Windows PCs have no need for dGPUs. AMD/Intel will probably not make drivers for their dGPUs available on QC's platform and Nvidia is more likely to pair their dGPU with their own ARM CPU. The only other explanation seems to be that QC will have at least a Geforce 7070 class dGPU by 2029.
Delusional. x86 isn’t going anywhere. I predict no more than 10% by 2030, a bit higher if Intel/AMD totally drop the ball and Microsoft/ARM/Qualcomm heavily invest, and a bit lower for any other scenario.
 

FlameTail

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Delusional. x86 isn’t going anywhere. I predict no more than 10% by 2030, a bit higher if Intel/AMD totally drop the ball and Microsoft/ARM/Qualcomm heavily invest, and a bit lower for any other scenario.
I'd wager atleast 25% by 2030. You are forgetting Nvidia/Mediatek is also getting on the bandwagon.
 

FlameTail

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Leaked Dell Roadmap;

This roadmap seems quite accurate. If you look at that "Oryon V1" label closely, you can see it starts from mid-June. Consider, the fact that we now know that Snapdragon X Elite devices will be released on June 18th.

So X Elite G2 = Oryon V2.

What node will X Elite G2 leverage?

N3P most likely. It is TSMC's pinaccle 3nm node, like N4P is for their 5nm family.

Then theirs is a question of which memory type will X Elite G2 use. I see 3 possibilities:
• LPDDR5T/5X-9600 (SK Hynix/Micron)
• LPDDR5X-10667 (Samsung)
• LPDDR6-10667
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Does Windows not have a Unified Memory model like MacOS?
It's showing how much RAM the GPU is allowed to use. If the CPU wants to access data from GPU's RAM pool, it should be instantaneous without any data copying involved since it exists on the same RAM chips. But for any other data manipulation, I don't think the CPU will be allowed to modify GPU's data. Then some data copying will be involved from GPU pool to CPU pool but it should be quicker than having to involve the PCIe bus in a dGPU's case.
 
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Nothingness

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View attachment 100725

Delusion or do they have an actual plan to invade PC users' homes and offices?

That's like saying that 50% Windows PCs have no need for dGPUs. AMD/Intel will probably not make drivers for their dGPUs available on QC's platform and Nvidia is more likely to pair their dGPU with their own ARM CPU. The only other explanation seems to be that QC will have at least a Geforce 7070 class dGPU by 2029.
I think it's a non-issue: almost 80% of the machines sold in Q2 2023 use iGPU.
 

coercitiv

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AMD/Intel will probably not make drivers for their dGPUs available on QC's platform and Nvidia is more likely to pair their dGPU with their own ARM CPU. The only other explanation seems to be that QC will have at least a Geforce 7070 class dGPU by 2029.
In the case that ARM really takes off on the PC, Intel/AMD not supporting dGPUs would pure suicide. Nvidia would support ARM just to watch them squirm.

Also, read this:
 

The Hardcard

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Geekerwan video about Snapdragon X Elite (not review):


Highlights:
View attachment 100726
View attachment 100727
Does Windows not have a Unified Memory model like MacOS?
Unified memory requires the memory management units in the CPU and the GPU (and NPU) to be coherent. Without that, even sharing physical memory, it has to be sectioned off, so that each controls memory that can’t be touched by the other. Which means that data has to be transferred back-and-forth within the same memory die. The operating system can’t support it if it’s not built-in to the chips.

AMD was near complete on a unified memory system in Kavari from the Bulldozer series. But it never got implemented in Ryzen until the datacenter and high performance computing APU MI300A. it doesn’t look like RDNA has it as of 3.5. At least I think if they put it in, they would be hyping it. So none of these new consumer Windows SOCs have it.
 
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The Hardcard

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I'd wager atleast 25% by 2030. You are forgetting Nvidia/Mediatek is also getting on the bandwagon.

Nvidia/Mediatek will have the same problem Qualcomm has. They are too late. AMD has been advancing performance per watt for a while now. Strix and Zen 5 will be another step. The new Intel cores and Lunar Lake appear to be transformative.

I’ve been arguing for a long time now the Apple’s top performance and performance per watt achievements are based on micro architecture work that could be implemented with any ISA. I think that’s going to be demonstrated with the 2024 x86 chips.

The battery life gap is going to be much smaller than the boom that Apple M1 dropped. I predict Qualcomm will not get more than 15 percent, I think that is being very generous. Nvidia share will depend on whether CUDA is still far ahead of other competitors on AI and whether they can leverage that lead in products based on their CPUs.
 
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FlameTail

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Nvidia/Mediatek will have the same problem Qualcomm has. They are too late. AMD has been advancing performance per watt for a while now. Strix and Zen 5 will be another step. The new Intel cores and Lunar Lake appear to be transformative.
I’ve been arguing for a long time now the Apple’s top performance and performance per watt achievements are based on micro architecture work that could be implemented with any ISA. I think that’s going to be demonstrated with the 2024 x86 chips.
You are underestimating the value of the mobile heritage that Apple, Qualcomm and Mediatek have. They have technologies that allow the SoC to operate at sub-1W. These technologies are essential for smartphones, where battery life, and thereby the power efficiency of the chip, is crucial. It is these technologies that they are bringing to the their PC chips, that will enable extraordinary battery life.

Sure, Intel and AMD can also develop these technologies, but they do not have the mobile heritage that Apple/Qualcomm/Mediatek have. They do not have the experience and knowledge gained from developing smartphone SoCs for more than a decade. This is where the real value of the mobile heritage lies...

Lunar Lake is a step in this direction and a huge advancement, but I can say with certainty it's not enough to catch up to Apple/Qualcomm, and make up for Intel's lack of mobile heritage. It will take them several more generations to close the gap.
 

coercitiv

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My only problem seems to be... Microsoft. I only use the laptop for work, and I'm starting to think MS made a big mess that will take quite a bit of time to fix.

Heck, I wouldn't even feel comfortable signing an NDA if I was working on a Copilot+PC. I never imagined this could be an issue.
 

The Hardcard

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You are underestimating the value of the mobile heritage that Apple, Qualcomm and Mediatek have. They have technologies that allow the SoC to operate at sub-1W. These technologies are essential for smartphones, where battery life, and thereby the power efficiency of the chip, is crucial. It is these technologies that they are bringing to the their PC chips, that will enable extraordinary battery life.

Sure, Intel and AMD can also develop these technologies, but they do not have the mobile heritage that Apple/Qualcomm/Mediatek have. They do not have the experience and knowledge gained from developing smartphone SoCs for more than a decade. This is where the real value of the mobile heritage lies...

Lunar Lake is a step in this direction and a huge advancement, but I can say with certainty it's not enough to catch up to Apple/Qualcomm, and make up for Intel's lack of mobile heritage. It will take them several more generations to close the gap.
Qualcomm and Mediatek’s mobile heritage is lower performance. There was nothing transformative about their previous designs.

Starting with the A7, Apple started on a path that no one else was doing, fighting for desktop level performance at very low power. This was straight up microarchitecture. There are no circuit-level advantages. Every company using TSMC has access to the same transistors that Apple has access to.

Intel has top semiconductor engineers. Their high-watt strategy was a corporate choice, not because they don’t know how to do low-watt circuits.

Now the microarchitecture concepts needed for high performance combined with efficiency have been authorized by everyone. From Nuvia Oryon to the Cortex-925 to Zen 5 and 5c to Lion Cove and Skymont the work has been done.

Apple and Qualcomm will probably battle for the battery life crown but it’s just not going to be the gap Apple previously enjoyed. Apple has already staked their share, plus Apple has fans of their OS. Qualcomm and Mediatek can’t leverage the unique OS and features that Apple can.

Cortex X4 made a high-performance-low-watt bid, but it’s not quite there. Will Cortex X925 make a stronger case? Mediatek needs it to.

But x86 is just not going to be far behind. The Skymont strategy I expect will give the heart of the market a reason to not consider Qualcomm. Nowhere near as low power as Apple E cores, but strong enough to keep the P cores off most of the time.
 
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FlameTail

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Qualcomm and Mediatek’s mobile heritage is lower performance. There was nothing transformative about their previous designs.

Starting with the A7, Apple started on a path that no one else was doing, fighting for desktop level performance at very low power. This was straight up microarchitecture. There are no circuit-level advantages. Every company using TSMC has access to the same transistors that Apple has access to.

Intel has top semiconductor engineers. Their high-watt strategy was a corporate choice, not because they don’t know how to do low-watt circuits.

Now the microarchitecture concepts needed for high performance combined with efficiency have been authorized by everyone. From Nuvia Oryon to the Cortex-925 to Zen 5 and 5c to Lion Cove and Skymont the work has been done.

Apple and Qualcomm will probably battle for the battery life crown but it’s just not going to be the gap Apple previously enjoyed. Apple has already staked their share, plus Apple has fans of their OS. Qualcomm and Mediatek can’t leverage the unique OS and features that Apple can.

Cortex X4 made a high-performance-low-watt bid, but it’s not quite there. Will Cortex X925 make a stronger case? Mediatek needs it to.

But x86 is just not going to be far behind. The Skymont strategy I expect will give the heart of the market a reason to not consider Qualcomm. Nowhere near as low power as Apple E cores, but strong enough to keep the P cores off most of the time.
You are only talking about the CPU core microarchitecture. Why will you not talk about the fabrics? Low-power interconnects? Power gating? These are all features of the Mobile heritage I was talking about.



Look how low the power floor is.
 

FlameTail

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The problem would be workload distribution on these slices. Not every element in a graphics scene has the same complexity. The synchronization of the slices could be a problem in complex scenes where complex geometry may bog down one or more slices and other slices have to wait for the overburdened slices to catch up.
And how are slices different from something like WGPs in AMD RDNA, or SMs in Nvidia GPUs?
 
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