Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[jdubs03]

Geekerwan's full video on 8 Elite has been posted to YouTube:

The perf / W 1T curves of 8 Elite vs D9400 are surprisingly close, even with Qualcomm's much higher frequency and slight overall 1T perf win.

SPECint2017:
View attachment 110052

SPECfp2017:
View attachment 110053


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Then to GB6 nT, 8 Elite is another world of perf / W, matching the D9400's 18.5W at a mere ~10.5W, and with fewer cores. Some can be improved uncore / fabric which GB6 nT also stresses, but whatever it is, it's is a great win.

View attachment 110054

Aah beat me to it.

Both the 9400 and S8E have 8 cores though. Either way shows the scaling of Phoenix-M.

Gerard Williams 3 & co., presumably.

Indeed, my comment was a play on both having the same father 😆

 

[ikjadoon]

I've not been following the Court case recently (maybe I need to again!), but this cancelling license news is ... interestingly timed. It may relate to QC's Summit confirming Oryon-derivative cores are in 8 Elite, with likely much higher shipping volume than X Elite (aka Arm's lawyers thinking re:damages, should they win, and / or trying to force a settlement before trial in December, should they fear a loss).

Arm mentioned this cancellation threat against Qualcomm's ALA (the "big" one) in late 2022:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ded.79892/gov.uscourts.ded.79892.21.0.pdf

From the above Arm reply to QC's defence, submitted on Nov 15, 2022, underline mine, italics original:

Second, Arm has no obligation to support Qualcomm’s further attempts to continue developing unlicensed technology originally developed at Nuvia using Arm’s architecture. Qualcomm’s ALA with Arm expressly excludes any license to Arm technology that was not developed under that specific ALA. The Qualcomm ALA limits Qualcomm’s design and manufacture rights, and Arm’s verification, delivery, and support obligations, to chips (1) based on the technology Arm delivered to Qualcomm under that ALA, (2) created at Qualcomm, by Qualcomm engineers and Qualcomm subsidiaries during the period while those entities were subsidiaries of Qualcomm, and (3) licensed subject to the terms of that ALA. None of this is true of the Phoenix core or other designs developed by Nuvia engineers at Nuvia based on the technology and license granted to Nuvia by Arm when Nuvia was a standalone company. Thus, Qualcomm is not only trying to develop an unlicensed product, but is also materially breaching its ALA with Arm.

Though some commentary claimed it might affect many Qualcomm divisions, IIRC, the ALA will only affect Oryon / Phoenix cores, which are only in two segments so far (laptops & smartphones / tablets).

//

We need a lawyer to review the summary judgment applications by both; I assume that ruling is coming in the next few weeks and whoever loses may be more motivated to settle. Or, each will get a few wins each in summary judgment, so they may dig in their heels even more.

 

[ikjadoon]

Just

Aah beat me to it.

Both the 9400 and S8E have 8 cores though. Either way shows the scaling of Phoenix-M.


Indeed, my comment was a play on both having the same father 😆

Ah, haha, sheer luck I saw it pop up.

Ah, wait, you're right: somehow I assumed 8 Elite was 2+4, but it's 2+6. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[Doug S]

Geekerwan's full video on 8 Elite has been posted to YouTube:

Thanks for the link, a few takeaways from it:

1. It looks like they are using an Intel philosophy rather than an Apple philosophy for their E core - it is obviously designed with more focus on performance and being an active contributor to MT speed, whereas Apple sees them as being used more for low power background tasks and are given much lower power/frequency ceilings.

2. I'm absolutely NOT a fan of him including IR photos with temperatures in a review of SoCs. For phones, sure, but in this review he's attributing the low temperature of this phone (which does a really good job of spreading the heat around vs the others) to the SoC, when it has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is all due to the design of the phone the SoC is in. I suppose it is fair when it comes to Apple's SoCs since you can only get them in an iPhone, but for the rest there will be plenty of different Androids using Qualcomm and Mediatek SoCs and they will vary widely in their ability to spread out the heat. The exact same SoC could be a cool 40C in a phone that perfectly spreads out the heat and have a 50C hot spot in another.

3. In just about every review, the auto translation to English seems to translate some particular word he's using to describe Apple as "alien" at least once. From context I assume he's talking about them being "not Android" but it always makes me laugh when I see it.

 

[The Hardcard]

3. In just about every review, the auto translation to English seems to translate some particular word he's using to describe Apple as "alien" at least once. From context I assume he's talking about them being "not Android" but it always makes me laugh when I see it.

I’ve noticed that also, and I think he’s actually saying “alien,” as in beyond human technological capability, jokingly of course.

MLID rarely mentions Apple Silicon, but several times responding to questions from his audience about his opinions, he includes the phrase “no, it’s not alien technology.”

 

[FlameTail]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848914284694405426

To be honest, ARM is also acting in bad faith.

It seems to me that they won't just be satisfied with extracting more $$$ from Qualcomm. Instead, they have a vested interest in destroying the Oryon CPU project.

 

[FlameTail]

Oryon-M is a completely new microarchitecture! Outstanding design work by the Oryon team.

Even Oryon-L isn't the same as Oryon in X Elite. Some Structures have changed; the ROB size has increase but the L1i cache size decreased from 192 KB to 128 KB... which is interesting.

INT:
A18-P > Oryon-L ≈ Cortex-X925

FP:
A18-P > Oryon-L > Cortex X925

INT/FP:
A18-E > A720 > Oryon-M

Oryon-M is much more performant than A18-E or D9400-A720, but also uses much more power to do so. At the same power level, Oryon-M is closer to them.

The CPU multi-core efficiency in the retail device is even better than the QRD. Wallops the D9400!

It's interesting that Qualcomm has changed the rendering technique from Tile-Based Rendering (TBR) to something more akin to the Immediate Mode Rendering (IMR) used in desktop class GPUs. It's fed by the huge 12 MB of GPU cache. This signals that Qualcomm is evolving Adreno to become a desktop class GPU architecture.

But Adreno 830 wouldn't be the first smartphone GPU without TBR. Exynos 2200 with it's AMD mRDNA2 GPU demonstrated that it's possible for a smartphone to have a non-TBR GPU.

GPU performance/efficiency on the Oneplus 13 retail device is not as good as it was on the QRD. This is ostensibly explained by the fact that it has LPDDR5X-8533 RAM, whereas the QRD had LPDDR5X-10667. Still, it's very close to the D9400 and much better than A18 Pro.

 

[FlameTail]

Article explaining why the "Elite" name was chosen:

What makes Snapdragon Elite ‘Elite’? Your burning questions answered | Qualcomm

Learn why Snapdragon Elite Platforms signify Qualcomm Technologies' commitment to delivering the best across mobile, compute and automotive.

www.qualcomm.com

Across both Snapdragon Ride Elite and Snapdragon Cockpit Elite is the second-generation Qualcomm Oryon CPU, a first for automotive and custom-built for vehicles.

So all the Elite chips are sporting the 2nd gen Oryon CPU, except for the X Elite which uses the 1st gen Oryon.

 

[Magio]

To be honest, ARM is also acting in bad faith.

It seems to me that they won't just be satisfied with extracting more $$$ from Qualcomm. Instead, they have a vested interest in destroying the Oryon CPU project.

Because Oryon demonstrates once and for all that ARM's own designs are just not good and sends a message to all of ARM's partners that they better start their own in-house core design programs if they want to stay competitive. And ARM makes a lot more money selling cores than they do on architectural licenses, so they don't want that.

And more giant tech companies setting up their own design teams also decreases their reliance on ARM since they'll build up the design muscle necessary to potentially shift to another ISA such as RISC V down the lin. So ARM is scrambling, flexing their legal muscles to potentially kill Oryon but also to discourage others from trying to follow Qualcomm's lead.

For my part, I hope the industry is smart enough to realize that in light of ARM's belligerence their best play is to shift their investments towards RISC V.

 

[mvprod123]

Because Oryon demonstrates once and for all that ARM's own designs are just not good and sends a message to all of ARM's partners that they better start their own in-house core design programs if they want to stay competitive. And ARM makes a lot more money selling cores than they do on architectural licenses, so they don't want that.

And more giant tech companies setting up their own design teams also decreases their reliance on ARM since they'll build up the design muscle necessary to potentially shift to another ISA such as RISC V down the lin. So ARM is scrambling, flexing their legal muscles to potentially kill Oryon but also to discourage others from trying to follow Qualcomm's lead.

For my part, I hope the industry is smart enough to realize that in light of ARM's belligerence their best play is to shift their investments towards RISC V.

The new ARM cores are quite competitive and perform on par with Oryon.

 

[FlameTail]

Official @Qualcomm statement from a spokesperson on the @Arm license news.
“This is more of the same from ARM – more unfounded threats designed to strongarm a longtime partner, interfere with our performance-leading CPUs, and increase royalty rates regardless of the broad rights under our architecture license. With a trial fast approaching in December, Arm’s desperate ploy appears to be an attempt to disrupt the legal process, and its claim for termination is completely baseless. We are confident that Qualcomm’s rights under its agreement with Arm will be affirmed. Arm’s anticompetitive conduct will not be tolerated.”

Source

 

[FlameTail]

Qualcomm Oryon CPU

 

[Glo.]

What if its not ARM that wants to take down Qualcomm, but... Apple?

Remember, Apple is part owner of ARM, and has incredible influence over ARM.

 

[poke01]

What if its not ARM that wants to take down Qualcomm, but... Apple?

Remember, Apple is part owner of ARM, and has incredible influence over ARM.

I don’t think so. Apple didn’t stop the Nvidia purchase of ARM, Qualcomm did.

So maybe it’s just ARM being a bad actor here. Remember, custom cores on WoA are a threat not to Apple but ARM/Nvidia. Especially if Qualcomm enters the server market and makes inroads in client.

Plus if Apple had issues with Qualcomm they would sue directly.

 

[mvprod123]

What if its not ARM that wants to take down Qualcomm, but... Apple?

Remember, Apple is part owner of ARM, and has incredible influence over ARM.

Apple does not sell chips. They don't care about this situation unless it affects them in some way, which is unlikely.

 

[FlameTail]

What if its not ARM that wants to take down Qualcomm, but... Apple?

Remember, Apple is part owner of ARM, and has incredible influence over ARM.

Could also be Nvidia forcing ARM's hand. Remember that Qualcomm lobbied to block the Nvidia-ARM acquisition, so this may be Nvidia's means of payback. Also Rene Haas (present ARM CEO) is a former Nvidia employee and has good relations with Jensen Huang.

 

[FlameTail]

Base Galaxy S25 could have UWB, thanks to Snapdragon 8 Elite

Qualcomm unveiled the fastest chip ever made for Android devices, the Snapdragon 8 Elite, a few hours ago. It is ...

www.sammobile.com

Qualcomm has confirmed that the Snapdragon 8 Elite features built-in UWB. This is the first Qualcomm chip with UWB onboard, which means smartphone brands like Samsung won't have to use a separate UWB chip.

Interesting

The company has managed to fit Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, and UWB on the FastConnect 7900 system, which is fully integrated into the Snapdragon 8 Elite

So there isn't a discrete Fastconnect chip?

This is something that has always confused me. Is the Fastconnect chip integrated to the SoC or not?

 

[Glo.]

Apple does not sell chips. They don't care about this situation unless it affects them in some way, which is unlikely.

Could also be Nvidia forcing ARM's hand. Remember that Qualcomm lobbied to block the Nvidia-ARM acquisition, so this may be Nvidia's means of payback. Also Rene Haas (present ARM CEO) is a former Nvidia employee and has good relations with Jensen Huang.

I don’t think so. Apple didn’t stop the Nvidia purchase of ARM, Qualcomm did.

So maybe it’s just ARM being a bad actor here. Remember, custom cores on WoA are a threat not to Apple but ARM/Nvidia. Especially if Qualcomm enters the server market and makes inroads in client.

Plus if Apple had issues with Qualcomm they would sue directly.

Apple wanted to destroy Nuvia, before they were bought by QCOM.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Base Galaxy S25 could have UWB, thanks to Snapdragon 8 Elite

Qualcomm unveiled the fastest chip ever made for Android devices, the Snapdragon 8 Elite, a few hours ago. It is ...

www.sammobile.com

Interesting

So there isn't a discrete Fastconnect chip?

This is something that has always confused me. Is the Fastconnect chip integrated to the SoC or not?

FastConnect IP is integrated into the SoC.

 

[mvprod123]

Apple wanted to destroy Nuvia, before they were bought by QCOM.

To file a lawsuit is not the same as to destroy. Moreover, Apple withdrew its lawsuit to have trump cards after the release of its own 5g modem, when similar lawsuits are likely to come from Qualcomm.

 

[FlameTail]

Alex Ziskind uses Snapdragon X Elite for 1 week;

 

[DZero]

I feel that ARM knows that without Qualcomm and Apple, only has Mediatek and Samsung, which the 1st isn't a 1st order competitor and Samsung... is dead...

The chinese not count for now due ARM China's influence.

Meanwhile Huawei is also out due Taishan project.

 

[Panino Manino]

So ARM is scrambling, flexing their legal muscles to potentially kill Oryon but also to discourage others from trying to follow Qualcomm's lead.

Even if ARM wins, I don't see how this "discourages" others from developing their own cores. As long as they do it in-house instead of buying from another company there shouldn't be any problems, right?

 

[Nothingness]

yeah they do, core licensing is more $$$ than the ISA one.

The architecture license doesn't exclude core royalties as far as I know.

 

[Nothingness]

Source

Qualcomm complaining about anti-competitive behavior, funny.