Question Qualcomm's first Nuvia based SoC - Hamoa

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Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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And sad because we know it will end in a wasted effort already now. Why in the world would I choose a non x86 for Windows if it isn't a lot cheaper? Given the description it will likley cost a lot more than budget intel based systems. So yeah, no thanks. And I doubt Qualcomm will provide a similar tool to apples x86 transpiler or even if much less efficient. So buying such a windows system just is asking for heachaches over headaches.

The money Qualcomm is paying them to make up for their increased costs should even things out but I'm sure Qualcomm is selling its chips at prices comparable to Intel/AMD laptop chips because they like fat profit margins so they were never going to be a "lot cheaper". And this PMIC fiasco means any power advantage they might have had is out the window.

Microsoft includes a x86 to ARM JIT which isn't nearly as good as Rosetta 2 but would at least allow people to run their x86 Windows stuff on this laptop.

But I agree headaches over headaches. I don't think it would see much success even if everything went right and it was a Windows ARM equivalent of the M2 Macbook performance and power wise. ARM will always be a second class citizen to Microsoft.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,967
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For that i can buy an android tablet at a fraction of the price or just use my smartphone?
Wasn't the entire point was to use Windows apps though?

Otherwise obviously yes you would be going with Android options.

I don't know about a fraction of the price though.

Higher end Android tablets like the Galaxy Tab S9 are not exactly cheap fare.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
961
655
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For that i can buy an android tablet at a fraction of the price or just use my smartphone?
If you want something that offers performant ST at reasonable power levels (and while you can clock Zen 4 down, I don't think would do especially well at 5-8W on whole board power with the SoC + DRAM, which is what you want to measure, for ST) and relatively low or very low idle power consumption then right now your option is Apple and its Mx chips of really any variety - even the Pro and Max still have low idle which is impressive.

But at any rate, if you want that in a laptop, and many do - this is a real alternative for Windows, or it would have been, assuming the recent rumor is correct RE: PMICs and ruining efficiency.

That's the appeal. Something that hits 1700-2000 GB5 @ the (incl. RAM, as in like Geekerkawn or an Andrei test) general power range a mobile chip would draw and with great idle but for a real, desktop-class OS.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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Apple were the only player to grow YoY recently, and considering their price tiers it's a tell tale sign.



The method here is "high IPC, good node, possible E-cores, plenty of SRAM, and smart/good PMIC use for idle management". Qc might've blown that last part which is unfortunate, and it will probably seep through to their dynamic power use now, but oh well.

The fact that Intel are going to launch Lunar Lake is telling.
 
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FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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So Qualcomm's PMIC is bad?

How come?

From there years of experience making mobile SoCs (and effectually being the leader in the android SoC market), I would expect Qualcomm to have good, efficient PMICs. Is this not the case?
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,967
2,192
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So Qualcomm's PMIC is bad?

How come?

From there years of experience making mobile SoCs (and effectually being the leader in the android SoC market), I would expect Qualcomm to have good, efficient PMICs. Is this not the case?
Mobile optimised PMICs don't necessarily translate to optimal HW config for laptops that require a higher current draw.

Qualcomm are basically demanding that OEMs pay for the privilege of tying their own hands behind their backs.

In so doing they are risking scuttling a nascent market before it even gets going.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
961
655
106
So Qualcomm's PMIC is bad?

How come?

From there years of experience making mobile SoCs (and effectually being the leader in the android SoC market), I would expect Qualcomm to have good, efficient PMICs. Is this not the case?
They do have good PMICs in mobile, at least presumably and certainly Qualcomm has excelled with idle draw and energy efficiency life be it in modems or the SoC itself, IP and process node permitting.

But you can't use the ones they have for laptops simply due to the current and voltages so they have to layer them apparently, it's a disaster from the way Charlie describes it. Forced measure due to greed.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,497
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yep. right now nvidia rules the pc industry. its profits dwarf intel and amd. if anyone can make a proper arm soc its nvidia. but its too focused on gpus

And why shouldn't they be? They are able to sell as many H100s they can make at far higher margins than they could ever get for an ARM SoC no matter how good it was. If I was in charge of Nvidia I sure wouldn't be telling my engineers to waste a single second on making an ARM SoC to earn far less profit and have to struggle (and quite likely fail) to win market share, versus working on the next gen of a product you literally have customers beating down your door fists full of cash wanting to buy?
 
Reactions: BorisTheBlade82
Mar 11, 2004
23,177
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yep. right now nvidia rules the pc industry. its profits dwarf intel and amd. if anyone can make a proper arm soc its nvidia. but its too focused on gpus

Er, Nvidia's profits are largely not from PC (you know the P stands for Personal, right?) but enterprise.

Double er, uh, you know they'd been trying that for over a decade and failing spectacularly, right? Their own custom ARM CPUs were wonky and inconsistent in performance, they wanted a lot of money for them, and they were pulling a lot of other shenanigans (pulled a Qualcomm and sued a bunch of the companies trying to force their GPU IP into stuff in exchange for modem IP because Nvidia couldn't do a modem right either - granted it turns out that's pretty tough as Intel and Apple have found out as well, although I think the challenge there is doing so in a way that doesn't infringe on Qualcomm's patents). They managed to sell Nintendo a years old ARM chip that had flopped because of their shenanigans, but Nintendo isn't exactly savvy (which is why it was a huge improvement for them still). Now their ARM designs are focused on commercial and enterprise because that's where their profits are. And there's less scrutiny of their behavior there.

Read Charlie's story at Semiaccurate, he explains the whole stupid mess in plenty of detail.

No thanks. Can you provide an alternative that isn't prone to writing like a trash celebrity gossip blog that actively seeks to stir up rumors with specious (if not likely outright fabricated) information as its alleged source?

If you want something that offers performant ST at reasonable power levels (and while you can clock Zen 4 down, I don't think would do especially well at 5-8W on whole board power with the SoC + DRAM, which is what you want to measure, for ST) and relatively low or very low idle power consumption then right now your option is Apple and its Mx chips of really any variety - even the Pro and Max still have low idle which is impressive.

But at any rate, if you want that in a laptop, and many do - this is a real alternative for Windows, or it would have been, assuming the recent rumor is correct RE: PMICs and ruining efficiency.

That's the appeal. Something that hits 1700-2000 GB5 @ the (incl. RAM, as in like Geekerkawn or an Andrei test) general power range a mobile chip would draw and with great idle but for a real, desktop-class OS.

That seems fundamentally at odds, you want the desktop class but running on mobile class hardware just because. And this isn't really desktop class, its a layer of that attempting to run transcribed ARM software, again just because you want low idle power? Which goes back to the question, what's the point if you can already run that software on other platforms? Even Microsoft has done a good job on their stuff on Android and iOS. There's not a lot of Windows specific software outside of games (which these chips are still lacking at running well) that isn't available or has alternatives on other platforms.

And its not like people even like Windows that much these days. Especially now that Microsoft wants to cram AI Bing into everything. And people have been complaining about privacy/tracking/etc on Windows as well. Plus quality control of updates has been an issue for awhile after they basically deprecated most of the internal bug testing team for that. Oh and let's not forget the revelations of the Microsoft ideas in gaming even, which is basically own everyone.

Now sure, its a chicken-egg situation where in order to get properly designed for ARM software then you've got to have the platform, but they've been supposedly building this platform for what a decade now with nothing really to show for it. I think initially they did because of bridging mobile and desktop back with Windows Phone and Win8 design. They kinda gave up on that but then tried again because of the Apple, and now there seems to be some insistence in order to try and match Apple, but it seems pointless since they'll constantly be at odds due to Microsoft not controlling the hardware and software (which is supposedly the appeal). Further, even Apple is running into limitations and that's going to become more and more of an issue as the ability to keep shrinking chips makes the easy gains harder to come by.

It seems like people want some ARM cores to keep the OS responsive and do simple background tasks, so why not just simply add those to the x86 designs? Or design some x86 cores for that? I've thought this for awhile now, that they should have an ARM SoC or similar running the OS overlay/GUI and the like, while running sandboxed instances of everything else (for security but also for performance where they can put instances into hibernation when not in use so the others can maximize performance and when not needed can be powered down) on hardware that is best for it, or with dedicated co-processing blocks. Arguably Microsoft has been kinda working towards that in a sense, but I don't think people want where that actually leads (which is basically Microsoft blackboxing the base Windows on a dedicated SoC, forcing updates, etc).

Really, seems people want Apple's ARM designs but with more freedom and/or games programmed to use their potential, but also for cheap. You're not going to get all of that no matter what. I think people think Windows on ARM could be that, but I don't think that's realistic based on how Microsoft, or really anyone can operate. There's always going to be a give and take where a company either has to operate like Apple (control), or open but then it'll lack the ability to compete with Apple's tight integration.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,805
11,161
136
Really, seems people want Apple's ARM designs but with more freedom and/or games programmed to use their potential, but also for cheap. You're not going to get all of that no matter what. I think people think Windows on ARM could be that, but I don't think that's realistic based on how Microsoft, or really anyone can operate. There's always going to be a give and take where a company either has to operate like Apple (control), or open but then it'll lack the ability to compete with Apple's tight integration.
It really depends on the individual, but the tuners/tweakers/builders around here may be a little bored with the overpriced boutique hardware infesting the PC scene and maybe want something new/cheap/low-power to experiment with on their own time. It would be really fun if there were wide availability of WARM and/or Linux ARM in laptop or SFF form factor. Even soldered chips would be acceptable assuming we didn't have to deal with bs like Qualcomm's PMIC nonsense.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,497
4,061
136
No thanks. Can you provide an alternative that isn't prone to writing like a trash celebrity gossip blog that actively seeks to stir up rumors with specious (if not likely outright fabricated) information as its alleged source?

Too bad for you then. Charlie has unique sources (and doubt if you want but he has a long term record of having his claims proven out over time...remember the skepticism and outright hate from some when he kept hinting and then later writing articles for public view about Intel's 10nm debacle while Intel kept claiming all is well and pretty much everyone else was believing them?) so no one else is able to write an article based on his information without reading what he wrote and rewriting it based on his information.

Maybe you should ask ChatGPT to rewrite his article in the style of an Agatha Christie novel or Tolkien fantasy quest if you can't handle the way he chooses to present the information he spent a lot of time digging up?
 
Sep 18, 2023
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Qualcomm's narrow-mindedness will prevent them from being a serious player in the PC space. Which is sad.
Indeed.

They would be in a much better position if for instance they could push out their processors with more modern Cores. The 8cx Gen 3 is ANCIENT, and was old already when it got released; they can't compete that way with AMD or Intel for that matter.

For years ARM has been pushing out designs that allow for 8 core Cortex-X + 4 core A700 series cores. We haven't seen any of such designs on the market yet, and will not happen as Qualcomm still have their exclusivity deal with Microsoft.

And even worse, they want to price their products like flagship, like what they charge for the $1000+ Samsung S23 Ultra; for everything, even if not achieving the flagship-expected performance on PC.

Perhaps is what's in their best interest, keep pumping money from the mobile market; where they are almost a monopoly, instead of spending money on a more competitive market with lower yields like the PC.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,497
4,061
136
Hopefully they will work it out. Thriving Arm laptop chip is good for overall market along with successful AMD, Intel and Apple. More the competition the customer benefits.

Microsoft will never treat Windows on ARM as a first class citizen, so ARM laptops are irrelevant to the overall market. People who follow tech like to pretend they matter, to everyone else they will always be as invisible to them as Linux is as a desktop OS. No matter how successful a laptop chip Qualcomm can make, the market is going to yawn and ignore it. It will at best achieve the same token single digit share that Linux desktops like mine have.
 
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