Question about selling a house without a realtor - Fees?

[spidey07]

What do you mean you sold and only paid closing costs?

The buyer pays that, not the seller.

 

[chelhxi]

I was selling FSBO and an agent and her client came to see it. I didn't realize she was an agent at the time as she didn't self-identify. But then we were discussing offers and I told them the minimum price I was willing to take. So they gave me the formal offer as my price, plus 3%, with the offer specifying that 3% would go to the agent. Since I got the money I needed and they were upfront about it I was fine with this. I got my house sold, which was all I cared about.

 

[woodie1]

What do you mean you sold and only paid closing costs?

The buyer pays that, not the seller.

That isn't true in all cases/states.

 

[KK]

Your mother can tell the buyer that she is on the hook for HER agent's fee. If the buyer wants to buy the house and have your mother pay, the fee then have you mother up the price of the house to cover the commission. See what the buyer and the agent says about that.

In reality, it all depends on how motivated your mother is to sell the house and how motivated the buyer is to buy the house.

 

[lupi]

if the buyers hired one, the probably had to sign something that stated if the seller refused to pay the buyers agent fee then the buyers woul dhave to cover it. I don't think any place will have a law that requires the seller to pay the fee, especially is an agent is not involved. If both sides had agents, then they normall do since next time they could be on opposite sides.

 

[classy]

If the agent came with them to see the house and presented the offer to your mother on their behalf she should pay the realtor. After all it is his buyer. Now whether its 3% or not is negotiable, but to say the agent who brought the buyer doesn't deserve anything is completely wrong. Now if the buyers came and seen the house without the agent, then your mother owes no one anything. But if she is selling a house at least have an attorney involved.

 

[velillen]

I'm currently buying a house as we speak so pulled my paperwork out and scanned it from a "buyers" side of things. Just waiting for the damn USDA to get off their butts! But i did look over my "offer" paperwork and can tell you there was nothing in it about me having to pay nor the seller having to pay commissions (as in actual amounts i mean)

heres exactly what it says in my offer paperwork as part of all the legal crap. (northwest multiple listing services form 21 if anyone cares (couldnt find the actual latest revision online...i think its actually section v on my form))

u. Commission - Seller and Buyer agree to pay a commission in accordance with any listing or commission agreement to which they are a party. The Listing Broker's commission shall be apportioned between Listing Broker and Selling Broker as specified in the listing. Seller and Buyer hereby consent to Listing Broker or Selling Broker receiving compensation from more than one party. Seller and Buyer hereby assign to Listing Broker and Selling Broker, as applicable, a portion of their funds in escrow equal to such commission(s) and irrevocably instruct the Closing Agent to disburse the commission(s) directly to the Broker(s). In any action by Listing or Selling Broker to enforce this paragraph, the prevailing party is entitled to court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees.



Which to me means the listing agent/sellers determine the fees and such when they set it up. So if you are selling it FSBO you can just say you have no commissions? If the buyer's agent wanted your mom to be paying fees it better be in the offer and stated as such. For me it would be Form 22D under section 12 Other. If theres nothing written in the offer for you to be paying fee's i have no idea where this agent is coming from thinking you'd automatically be paying fees to them. Since the section in my offer at least says the fee's are determined by the listing so if the buyers agent required 3% it shouldnt be on you.

it does say the buyers agent could charge a fee but not that the seller is required to pay it either....unless it was written into the offer as such (or thats how i read the first sentence)







least that is my thought on it. Definitely check with a professional though as i really have no idea 100%. hell im probably totally wrong!

 

[Lifted]

Now if the buyers came and seen the house without the agent, then your mother owes no one anything.

I don't came and seen no houses on surprise yo. Somebody stick a gat in yo grill if you been comin and seenin wit no agents in dis hood.

 

[murphy55d]

If the agent came with them to see the house and presented the offer to your mother on their behalf she should pay the realtor. After all it is his buyer. Now whether its 3% or not is negotiable, but to say the agent who brought the buyer doesn't deserve anything is completely wrong. Now if the buyers came and seen the house without the agent, then your mother owes no one anything. But if she is selling a house at least have an attorney involved.

As I stated, the agent never even saw the house herself until Saturday, let alone with the buyers. They were renting a place a few blocks away and saw my moms FSBO sign outside the house, and then contacted her themselves.

I spoke again with my mom this morning and she told me the buyers called her last night and mentioned they "forgot" that when they moved here a few months ago, they "must have" signed something with ReMax realty, which is where this woman is now coming from.

I mentioned a lot of the things that were posted here, about negotiating that 3% down, or making a counter-offer raising the price to cover the fees. The way she spoke it sounded like she didn't want to lose the sale with the state of the market around here, with houses sitting for months. So I don't know what she'll do, but I do know that she's having her lawyer friend look at it this morning just to help out.

I appreciate all the constructive responses. Thank you!

 

[sourceninja]

What do you mean you sold and only paid closing costs?

The buyer pays that, not the seller.

We bought our house FSBO and negotiated that the seller payed the closing costs. We also had them pay the well/septic inspection.

 

[routan]

Ok so my mom had put her house up for sale by owner, to avoid paying the realtor fees when her house sold. She ended up finding a buyer who had just moved her, and wanted the house. They agreed on a price and then proceeded to set up a meeting with my mom, the buyers, and their real estate agent.

Now, when they brought all the paperwork, the real estate agent that these people had, tried to tell my mom that she would have to pay the agent a 3% fee for selling her house, even though she had never hired her, or for that matter, even met her before. But since she was "facilitating" the deal I guess, she was entitled to it.

Now it is my understanding that if you do not hire a realtor to sell and advertise your home, you don't owe selling fees or anything if someone happens to have a realtor and wants to buy your For Sale By Owner home.

It sounds to me like this agent is trying to take advantage of my mom in this. Am I wrong? If so, what's the point of selling your house by yourself if you still have to pay realtor fees?

I have already told her to have a lawyer check this out because I don't think that's right. I just wanted to know for my own sake. I'm sure there are a few real estate agents here.

Thanks

The actual fact is, your mom did not retain the services of the buyers agent, and is NOT obligated to pay the agent a dime. If the buyers agent wants their "cut", he/she should request it from the buyers because the agent represents them.

The only way for a buyer's agent to earn the 3% is IF they negotiated that with the seller's agent, to expedite the process, bring in a buyer, etc.

Do NOT pay anything.

 

[edro]

Did your mom list it on the MLS?
I listed my house on the MLS and listed a 3% buyers agent commission.
I sold my house in 3 weeks and was happy to pay the 3%.

In your situation, if the offer letter lists the 3%, she should accept it.
Buyers often times look around without their agent. It sounds like the first walkthrough was impromptu. The second walk through and offer was more official with a buyers agent representing the buyers. The buyers agent makes the buyers feel more comfortable, which is what you want when you are selling.

That 3% is an insurance policy that increases the chances you will make the sale.
The buyers agent knows the clients want your house and will do everything they can to smooth over any concerns they have, so they get their 3% ASAP.

It took me a while to accept paying 3 or 6%, but after going through a few transactions, I feel better about it.

 

[murphy55d]

Did your mom list it on the MLS?
I listed my house on the MLS and listed a 3% buyers agent commission.
I sold my house in 3 weeks and was happy to pay the 3%.

In your situation, if the offer letter lists the 3%, she should accept it.
Buyers often times look around without their agent. It sounds like the first walkthrough was impromptu. The second walk through and offer was more official with a buyers agent representing the buyers. The buyers agent makes the buyers feel more comfortable, which is what you want when you are selling.

That 3% is an insurance policy that increases the chances you will make the sale.
The buyers agent knows the clients want your house and will do everything they can to smooth over any concerns they have, so they get their 3% ASAP.

It took me a while to accept paying 3 or 6%, but after going through a few transactions, I feel better about it.

The only place her house was listed was on the sign in her front yard.

 

[Stuxnet]

Ok so my mom had put her house up for sale by owner, to avoid paying the realtor fees when her house sold. She ended up finding a buyer who had just moved her, and wanted the house. They agreed on a price and then proceeded to set up a meeting with my mom, the buyers, and their real estate agent.

Now, when they brought all the paperwork, the real estate agent that these people had, tried to tell my mom that she would have to pay the agent a 3% fee for selling her house, even though she had never hired her, or for that matter, even met her before. But since she was "facilitating" the deal I guess, she was entitled to it.

Now it is my understanding that if you do not hire a realtor to sell and advertise your home, you don't owe selling fees or anything if someone happens to have a realtor and wants to buy your For Sale By Owner home.

It sounds to me like this agent is trying to take advantage of my mom in this. Am I wrong? If so, what's the point of selling your house by yourself if you still have to pay realtor fees?

I have already told her to have a lawyer check this out because I don't think that's right. I just wanted to know for my own sake. I'm sure there are a few real estate agents here.

Thanks

It's pretty obvious what happened here... the buyer's agent is trying to pull a fast one.

Many For Sale By Owner (FSBO or "fizzbo") sellers offer to pay 3% to a buyer's agent. They do this so agents won't deter clients from looking at their FSBO home.

In the case of your mom, the agent's buyers found the home themselves and decided they wanted it. The agent didn't want to lose his/her 3%, so she tried to "facilitate" the deal and then con your mom into thinking she owes her 3%.

SHE DOES NOT. PERIOD.

That's the good news. The bad news is that agents are con artists by trade, and there's a chance this one will strong arm her clients into not buying the house if she thinks her 3% is about to slip away. For instance, she can threaten to sue them for the 3% if they continue with the deal and leave her out of it, and she might actually have a case depending on what paperwork they signed when they hired her as their agent.

That said, your mom needs to decide how badly she wants to sell the house to these people. If she really wants/needs to sell it, maybe it's worth coughing up the 3%. If not, tell the buyers she will not work with their agent and see where it goes from there.

Welcome to the world of glorified used car salesmen.

 

[richardycc]

tell the realtor to go pound sand.

 

[Stuxnet]

Lawyers are the Devil ...

Not when propped up next to a real estate agent. At least they're actually schooled, educated, and certified to practice law. Agents are just play-pretend lawyers.

 

[Stuxnet]

The realtor never came into play until the buyers brought them in. My mom (the seller) never had any contact with this realtor. They found the house through a mutual party through church, and contacted my mom before this realtor was ever mentioned or met with my mom. This is why I am not sure why she has to pay ANY fee at all to this realtor.

The problem isn't with your mom; it's the buyers who are in a sticky situation. The buyers may have signed an exclusivity contract with their agent, basically promising to give her the exclusive right to find them a home within x amount of time.

The buyers are total FOOLS if they signed such an agreement, but these agreements exist and the agent's number one priority when meeting a buyer is to get them to sign the damn thing.

If they signed it and then they buy the house from your mom and exclude her from the deal, the agent can sue the buyers for her commission.

 

[Stuxnet]

Listen dude, that's just the way it works, it's VERY, VERY, VERY rare to invovle no real estate agents in this process, they are there for a reason? Have you seen a standard sales contract?

Actually it happens all the time. Successfully. Want informed legal advice? GET A LAWYER, NOT A REAL ESTATE AGENT.

An attorney will be happy to review your contract for a couple hundred bucks, and he's actually qualified to make changes to it and has the insurance to back it up if he inadvertently does something that fucks your side of the deal.

Many real estate agents think they're lawyers and love to go marking up contracts while they play "expert," and end up costing their clients money, imposing unnecessary liabilities, etc.

Only a fool thinks having an agent at his side protects him, and only a colossal idiot thinks that agent is actually working for HIM.

 

[cerebusPu]

some buyers agent make you sign a contract so that if you see a house yourself you still need to go through the agent to buy.

whether or not the buyers bring in an agent at an appropriate time isn't really a problem. what the problem is you agreed on a price without an agent and then the buyer showed up with an agent which effectively gives you 3% less money.

just reject the offer and tell them to raise it 3% to match the original agreed upon price.

 

[Stuxnet]

some buyers agent make you sign a contract so that if you see a house yourself you still need to go through the agent to buy.

whether or not the buyers bring in an agent at an appropriate time isn't really a problem. what the problem is you agreed on a price without an agent and then the buyer showed up with an agent which effectively costs the buyers 3% more.

just reject the offer and tell them to raise it 3% to match the original agreed upon price.

FTFY

The seller isn't on the hook for the 3% since the seller never entered into an agreement with the buyer's agent. The buyers, on the other hand, can be sued by the their agent for her commission if they continue the deal without her, depending on the nature of the paperwork they signed when they hired her.

Now, if OP's mom just wants to push the deal through, the easiest path to that is to eat the 3%... but she's in no way obligated to do so, which is what you've implied.

 

[classy]

The problem isn't with your mom; it's the buyers who are in a sticky situation. The buyers may have signed an exclusivity contract with their agent, basically promising to give her the exclusive right to find them a home within x amount of time.

The buyers are total FOOLS if they signed such an agreement, but these agreements exist and the agent's number one priority when meeting a buyer is to get them to sign the damn thing.

If they signed it and then they buy the house from your mom and exclude her from the deal, the agent can sue the buyers for her commission.

Thats not true at all. I don't know the state, but in NJ this is the buyers agent agreement that is used, I have used, and it clearly states that an agent only gets a commission for properties found by the agent.

http://filelibrary.myaasite.com/Content/8/8512/6555610.pdf

No agent is going to try and collect a commission as described in this scenario. I should say any reputable agent wouldn't because there is no legal ground. Most agents don't even use Buyer agreements. I think I have used it only two times despite working with many people.

Here is a question I have, the OP says his mom is selling as FSBO, but was it with a FSBO agency? Did she at anytime ever list the house with any type agency?

 

[Stuxnet]

Thats not true at all. I don't know the state, but in NJ this is the buyers agent agreement that is used, I have used, and it clearly states that an agent only gets a commission for properties found by the agent.

In Ohio, asking buyers to sign exclusivity agreements is very common, and such agreements are in addition to the standard buyer's agreement. Given the power buyers have, it's quite easy to tell them to go fuck themselves when they present you with such an agreement, and they'll still be more than happy to represent you. However, many people still sign the damn things thinking it's just "standard procedure," as the agents often tell them.

How enforceable they are, I do not know... I imagine they are quite enforceable since you're not signing away any inalienable rights.

These agreements close the "loopholes" (as agents see them) regarding whether or not they introduced the property to the buyers, etc. They basically act as a catch all, and can be summarized like this:

"You agree to give me 90 days to find you a home. I am your agent and representative for any home you choose to purchase in that 90 days. You agree to pay me 3% commission in the event the seller does not, and you agree to make up any difference the seller does not pay."

That's the jist of it.

 

[classy]

Actually it happens all the time. Successfully. Want informed legal advice? GET A LAWYER, NOT A REAL ESTATE AGENT.

An attorney will be happy to review your contract for a couple hundred bucks, and he's actually qualified to make changes to it and has the insurance to back it up if he inadvertently does something that fucks your side of the deal.

Many real estate agents think they're lawyers and love to go marking up contracts while they play "expert," and end up costing their clients money, imposing unnecessary liabilities, etc.

Only a fool thinks having an agent at his side protects him, and only a colossal idiot thinks that agent is actually working for HIM.

Agents carry insurance, which protects them and a buyer when they do a transaction on a house. Agents pay several thousand dollars a year to be able to facilitate a transaction to purchase a home. A lawyer can't negotiate for you. They can't access records normally that follow trouble properties. Lawyers typically don't have access to bank foreclosures, the ones worth actually buying. Real Estate people, good ones, worth their pay and them some. Many stayed trained year round.

A fool who thinks he can buy his house without a trained professional ain't to far removed from a fool who thinks he can represent himself in a court case. Agents are not needed 100% of the time, but you run risks, can be very serious risks without using one.

 

[Thump553]

You are on the right track. In my state (and the one other state I practiced in) a signed listed agreement is an essential prerequiste to a broker being able to legally claim a commission. No signed agreement, no obligation to pay.

It's possible the broker has a signed agreement with the buyer-in which case the BUYER owes him the commission, which could quite easily kill the deal.

I can't emphasize it enough-get a lawyer. You'll spend a few hundred at most and potentially save thousands-or at least keep the deal together, which is no small accomplishment in today's market.

 

[murphy55d]

Thats not true at all. I don't know the state, but in NJ this is the buyers agent agreement that is used, I have used, and it clearly states that an agent only gets a commission for properties found by the agent.

http://filelibrary.myaasite.com/Content/8/8512/6555610.pdf

No agent is going to try and collect a commission as described in this scenario. I should say any reputable agent wouldn't because there is no legal ground. Most agents don't even use Buyer agreements. I think I have used it only two times despite working with many people.

Here is a question I have, the OP says his mom is selling as FSBO, but was it with a FSBO agency? Did she at anytime ever list the house with any type agency?

I stated numerous times, the only place she listed her home was on the FSBO sign in her yard. No agencies, no agents, no realtors, no nothing. Just a sign.