Question for atheists - do you hold Chiristians to a higher moral standard?

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Nov 29, 2006
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Yes. Only because that's all they like to preach and try to claim ownership of them. But I find most are hypocrites
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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Of course I don't. The question begins by assuming that Christians have higher "moral standards" than atheists. That's beyond laughable to begin with.

If I don't idiotically believe that Christians have higher moral standards than atheists, why would I ever hold them to higher moral standards they don't actually have?

In any situation where two people are both not shitheels, with neither of them taking advantage of other people or hurting other people, I'll give more credit to the atheist who doesn't need Fear of an invisible sky wizard who is always watching them and threatening them with eternal torture to be good.

The dirty, evil atheist isn't being a shitheel simply because they aren't a shitheel.

The Christian, or anyone else who has a particular belief in a particular version of an invisible sky wizard who is always watching them, is simply being good because SkyDad is watching them with a switch in his hand, by the very fact that they generally make stupid f-ing arguments that morality somehow requires belief in an invisible sky wizard who is ready to punish them for being bad.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
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1,505
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I do not hold Christians (or any other religion) to higher standards than I hold other atheists. I hold them to the same standards. Which is the same standards most atheists hold each other to. Which is significantly higher standards than most Christians hold themselves and other Christians to.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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Define "Hold to a higher moral standard"....
Do I think many fall short of and/or betray the principle lesson of Jesus?
Hell yes they fall short. Makes them at least hypocrites...

But if anyone isn't doing what they preach - I'd treat them equally.

I'm not religious but isn't a basic tenet of Christianity that all people are sinners? And thus not live up to perfection?

And thus ones sins doesn't equate to hypocrisy if this is the case? The whole he died on a cross for our sins ideal...
 

Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
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C.S. Lewis on how some judge Christians:

I think this is the right moment to consider a question which is often asked: If Christianity is true why are not all Christians obviously nicer than all non-Christians? What lies behind that question is partly something very reasonable and partly something that is not reasonable at all. The reasonable part is this. If conversion to Christianity makes no improvement in a man's outward actions -if he continues to be just as snobbish or spiteful or envious or ambitious as he was before-then I think we must suspect that his "conversion" was largely imaginary; and after one's original conversion, every time one thinks one has made an advance, that is the test to apply. Fine feelings, new insights, greater interest in "religion" mean nothing unless they make our actual behaviour better; just as in an illness "feeling better" is not much good if the thermometer shows that your temperature is still going up. In that sense the outer world is quite right to judge Christianity by its results. Christ told us to judge by results. A tree is known by its fruit; or, as we say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. When we Christians behave badly, or fail to behave well, we are making Christianity unbelievable to the outside world. The wartime posters told us that Careless Talk costs Lives. It is equally true that Careless Lives cost Talk. Our careless lives set the outer world talking; and we give them grounds for talking in a way that throws doubt on the truth of Christianity itself.
But there is another way of demanding results in which the outer world may be quite illogical. They may demand not merely that each man's life should improve if he becomes a Christian: they may also demand before they believe in Christianity that they should see the whole world neatly divided into two camps -Christian and non-Christian-and that all the people in the first camp at any given moment should be obviously nicer than all the people in the second. This is unreasonable on several grounds.

(1) In the first place the situation in the actual world is much more complicated than that. The world does not consist of 100 per cent Christians and 100 per cent non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together. Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non-Christians in the mass. It is some use comparing cats and dogs, or even men and women, in the mass, because there one knows definitely which is which. Also, an animal does not turn (either slowly or suddenly) from a dog into a cat. But when we are comparing Christians in general with non-Christians in general, we are usually not thinking about real people whom we know at all, but only about two vague ideas which we have got from novels and newspapers. If you want to compare the bad Christian and the good Atheist, you must think about two real specimens whom you have actually met. Unless we come down to brass tacks in that way, we shall only be wasting time.

(2) Suppose we have come down to brass tacks and are now talking not about an imaginary Christian and an imaginary non-Christian, but about two real people in our own neighbourhood. Even then we must be careful to ask the right question. If Christianity is true then it ought to follow (a) That any Christian will be nicer than the same person would be if he were not a Christian. (b) That any man who becomes a Christian will be nicer than he was before. Just in the same way, if the advertisements of White-smile's toothpaste are true it ought to follow (a) That anyone who uses it will have better teeth than the same person would have if he did not use it. (b) That if anyone begins to use it his teeth will improve. But to point out that I, who use Whitesmile's (and also have inherited bad teeth from both my parents), have not got as fine a set as some healthy young Negro who never used toothpaste at all, does not, by itself, prove that the advertisements are untrue. Christian Miss Bates may have an unkinder tongue than unbelieving Dick Firkin. That, by itself, does not tell us whether Christianity works. The question is what Miss Bates's tongue would be like if she were not a Christian and what Dick's would be like if he became one. Miss Bates and Dick, as a result of natural causes and early upbringing, have certain temperaments: Christianity professes to put both temperaments under new management if they will allow it to do so. What you have a right to ask is whether that management, if allowed to take over, improves the concern. Everyone knows that what is being managed in Dick Firkin's case is much "nicer" than what is being managed in Miss Bates's. That is not the point. To judge the management of a factory, you must consider not only the output but the plant. Considering the plant at Factory A it may be a wonder that it turns out anything at all; considering the first-class outfit at Factory B its output, though high, may be a great deal lower than it ought to be. No doubt the good manager at Factory A is going to put in new machinery as soon as he can, but that takes time. In the meantime low output does not prove that he is a failure.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
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You are not TAUGHT morale. It's not something you learn from a priest or something written in a "holy book". Cheezus Christ.

Moral standards are something you develop for yourself. I don't need a priest telling me what's right or wrong. Real moral standards are not taught.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
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You are not TAUGHT morale. It's not something you learn from a priest or something written in a "holy book". Cheezus Christ.

Moral standards are something you develop for yourself. I don't need a priest telling me what's right or wrong. Real moral standards are not taught.
basic morals (helping other humans) are innate, the rest you are taught by your parents, teachers and society.

Otherwise explain why gypsy kids steal and think it's totally fine.
 

kia75

Senior member
Oct 30, 2005
468
0
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basic morals (helping other humans) are innate, the rest you are taught by your parents, teachers and society.

Otherwise explain why gypsy kids steal and think it's totally fine.

Disagree.

Have you ever hung out with a young kid (pre-5 years old)?

Young kids steal, lie, hit, throw tantrums, and for the most part are immoral. It's parents that teach kids to share instead of steal, to not lie, to settle arguments with words instead of fists, to control their temper, etc.

Even then we can all remember as children doing something particularly immoral that we should have known better, and being punished by our parents for it.
 

Enigmoid

Platinum Member
Sep 27, 2012
2,907
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*And you are probably not a Christian, or at least have an utter lack of understanding of its core.

Oh, I'm not Christian, but I spent 12 years in catholic schools and did all of the religious activities/classes (though differently for some as I am not baptized). I understand the religion and can support it and its values (some of them and some of the time) but not the idea of a god.

Furthermore, that comment was not directed at religious people, but people in general. If you believe you are a good person, and stand by your claim, I will expect more from you.
 

artvscommerce

Golden Member
Jul 27, 2010
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No, but I will criticize hypocracy, and that might be seen as holding Christians to a higher moral standard, even though it's really not.

For example, I have no problem with pre-marital sex, but I would criticize Bristol Palin for continuing to push abstinance as she expects her second extra-marital child. If Palin remained celibate while pushing those views, I would still disagree with them, but could not really criticize her personally. (This is also an excellent example of when an ad-hominum attack is a legitmate device.)

I wouldn't say the ad-hominem is legitimate; the hypocrisy only applies to Bristol's stated morals, in which case it is not really an ad-hominem but evidence of her being logically inconsistent. The argument behind abstinence only can be refuted in many ways, but not by her hypocrisy.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Christians have moral standards that vary from person to person just as we all do. And Christians, at times, don't live up to their moral standards just as we all do. However, I believe that rejoicing in the failure and hypocrisy of others speaks volumes about one's character as well as the extent of blindness to one's own hypocrisy. No one is perfect...no one. And the fact that some hold themselves to higher moral standards is OK...really it's OK. They sometimes fail...just as we all sometimes fail. Perfection does not exist in this world...especially when looking at ourselves. Deal with it.
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Christians have moral standards that vary from person to person just as we all do. And Christians, at times, don't live up to their moral standards just as we all do. However, I believe that rejoicing in the failure and hypocrisy of others speaks volumes about one's character as well as the extent of blindness to their own hypocrisy. No one is perfect...no one. And the fact that some hold themselves to higher moral standards is OK...really it's OK. They sometimes fail...just as we all sometimes fail. Perfection does not exist in this world...especially when looking at ourselves. Deal with it.

Excellent post, sir!
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
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Oh, I'm not Christian, but I spent 12 years in catholic schools and did all of the religious activities/classes (though differently for some as I am not baptized). I understand the religion and can support it and its values (some of them and some of the time) but not the idea of a god.

Furthermore, that comment was not directed at religious people, but people in general. If you believe you are a good person, and stand by your claim, I will expect more from you.

Please don't think I was labeling you personally as Christian or not, I wouldn't make that assumption. Rather, I was making an addendum to your statement.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
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Doc Savage Fan said:
Christians have moral standards that vary from person to person just as we all do. And Christians, at times, don't live up to their moral standards just as we all do. However, I believe that rejoicing in the failure and hypocrisy of others speaks volumes about one's character as well as the extent of blindness to their own hypocrisy. No one is perfect...no one. And the fact that some hold themselves to higher moral standards is OK...really it's OK. They sometimes fail...just as we all sometimes fail. Perfection does not exist in this world...especially when looking at ourselves. Deal with it.
Excellent post, sir!
And yet I found it to be totally vapid.

The issue isn't about whether Christians (or anyone else) are fallible. It's that "true-believing" Christians (and pretty much all other true believers) delude themselves into "knowing" that they've found the one, true way. And since such beliefs aren't empirical, true-believers are immune to contrary evidence.

You'd think that all it would take for a true-believing Christian to develop a healthy humility about his or her faith would be exposure to a true believer of another faith. I mean, after the shouting of "My book is truth!" "No, MY book!" for awhile, shouldn't it be obvious to anyone with half a brain that all their "truth" amounts to is the feeling of certainty inside their own brain? And that if another faith's certainty can be labeled (by you) as wrong, then why can't one's own certainty be just as wrong? I mean, what the hell makes YOUR certainty so damn special?

But true believers seem incapable of such introspection as that. And they are thus worthy of mockery.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
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American Psychological Association To Classify Belief in God As a Mental Illness

According to the American Psychological Association (APA), a strong and passionate belief in a deity or higher power, to the point where it impairs one’s ability to make conscientious decisions about common sense matters, will now be classified as a mental illness.

The controversial ruling comes after a 5-year study by the APA showed devoutly religious people often suffered from anxiety, emotional distress, hallucinations, and paranoia. The study stated that those who perceived God as punitive was directly related to their poorer health, while those who viewed God as benevolent did not suffer as many mental problems. The religious views of both groups often resulted in them being disconnected from reality.

http://www.thenewsnerd.com/health/apa-to-classify-belief-in-god-as-a-mental-illness/

 

Angry Irishman

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2010
1,883
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Of course I don't. The question begins by assuming that Christians have higher "moral standards" than atheists. That's beyond laughable to begin with.

If I don't idiotically believe that Christians have higher moral standards than atheists, why would I ever hold them to higher moral standards they don't actually have?

In any situation where two people are both not shitheels, with neither of them taking advantage of other people or hurting other people, I'll give more credit to the atheist who doesn't need Fear of an invisible sky wizard who is always watching them and threatening them with eternal torture to be good.

The dirty, evil atheist isn't being a shitheel simply because they aren't a shitheel.

The Christian, or anyone else who has a particular belief in a particular version of an invisible sky wizard who is always watching them, is simply being good because SkyDad is watching them with a switch in his hand, by the very fact that they generally make stupid f-ing arguments that morality somehow requires belief in an invisible sky wizard who is ready to punish them for being bad.

Well that wasn't biased at all.....
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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Christians have moral standards that vary from person to person just as we all do. And Christians, at times, don't live up to their moral standards just as we all do. However, I believe that rejoicing in the failure and hypocrisy of others speaks volumes about one's character as well as the extent of blindness to one's own hypocrisy. No one is perfect...no one. And the fact that some hold themselves to higher moral standards is OK...really it's OK. They sometimes fail...just as we all sometimes fail. Perfection does not exist in this world...especially when looking at ourselves. Deal with it.

Perfection is a hard life long journey not a destination, too many people use the excuse of " No one is perfect...no one." to justify their imperfections as righteous to the point of hating those that strive towards perfection.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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The real question is whether one should hold Chiristians to a higher spelling standard.

In other words, fix your damned thread title, OP. If you wish to make us all look stupid to anyone who wanders by, at least make them read your actual posts.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
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If you are an atheist, do you hold Christians to a higher moral standard than you hold other atheists to?

Make that: If you are an Atheist do you hold Christians to an Atheist moral code and find them lacking.
 

Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,918
89
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And yet I found it to be totally vapid.

The issue isn't about whether Christians (or anyone else) are fallible. It's that "true-believing" Christians (and pretty much all other true believers) delude themselves into "knowing" that they've found the one, true way. And since such beliefs aren't empirical, true-believers are immune to contrary evidence.

You'd think that all it would take for a true-believing Christian to develop a healthy humility about his or her faith would be exposure to a true believer of another faith. I mean, after the shouting of "My book is truth!" "No, MY book!" for awhile, shouldn't it be obvious to anyone with half a brain that all their "truth" amounts to is the feeling of certainty inside their own brain? And that if another faith's certainty can be labeled (by you) as wrong, then why can't one's own certainty be just as wrong? I mean, what the hell makes YOUR certainty so damn special?

But true believers seem incapable of such introspection as that. And they are thus worthy of mockery.

“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” - C.S. Lewis

I have found this to be very true in my life
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
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I have lower moral expectations of Christians than just the general populace, on balance. I think my perceptions might be slightly skewed considering my prolonged exposure to Internet forum Christians - particularly creationists.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
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“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” - C.S. Lewis

I have found this to be very true in my life

And true believers of other faiths would make the same claim. Yet you would label them as mistaken, following the wrong path, not accepting as truth the one essential thing YOU believe, wouldn't you?
 
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