question for the Christians - immortality

[torpid]

Why did god, who is love, invent sin and hell and create humans with the capacity to fail? Why did he create man with the intention of sending him to hell?

Does that sound like a god of love to you?

Try to keep up here. Humans didn't have the capacity to fail until they failed to obey this so-called loving entity -- you know, the entity who put an apple and a devious snake into some sort of garden that also has apple trees. Humans were perfect, except they were talking to a snake and the snake convinced them to condemn humankind to various labors and trials and tribulations.

In summation, humans were free of sin and had no capacity to fail until the moment when they sinned and failed. Why is this so hard to understand??

 

[Nik]

If they could choose to disobey him, then sin existed within Adam and Eve before they bit the apple.

You're the one not following along.

How can humans who are perfect, who are without sin, become imperfect, sin, and defy god?

LOGIC AND REASON, HOW THE FUCK DO THEY WORK!

 

[GotIssues]

The problem you are having, and which is interfering with your thick skull's ability to comprehend this topic, is that the foundations of biology assume and require certain things.

So, by applying TODAY'S RULES OF BIOLOGY, you are coming to conclusions. Congratu-fucking-lations, you still don't get it.

I agree that we don't know how much mankind would actually have reproduced regardless of the "be fruitful and multiply" directive. What I don't understand is how we can live in a world where humans, trees, snakes, soil, oceans, etc. all existed at some point in a perfect state that involved no evolution, bacteria, aging, etc.

The.
Rules.
Are.
Not.
The.
Same.
As.
The.
Rules.
Of.
Today's.
World.

So here are these two dudes/dudettes, a snake, and an apple tree. One of them decides to screw over humankind. Then, poof, God (who is love) decides to instigate mutations and evolution, create viruses out of thin air (since there was no primeval formation of DNA/RNA), and a bunch of other tragic bullshit all in response. Is that the concept here?

Or he stopped having a preventative influence on the development of said harmful diseases/virii/harmful bacterial. Think outside the box. Hell, think at all.

I give up. You are seriously too fucking dense to get it. Seriously, I didn't think that such a simple concept was difficult to grasp. I guess I overestimated the "specials" that seem to frequent here.

 

[Nik]

ugh. Yet another moron.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Or he stopped having a preventative influence on the development of said harmful diseases/virii/harmful bacterial. Think outside the box. Hell, think at all.

So bacteria, viruses and other harmful microbes evolved because God kicked humans out of paradise? Wouldn't he have to create them in the first place? Or did they spontaneously generate from nothingness after God ejected Adam and Eve from paradise? Your either arguing for evolution or abiogenesis, and strictly for diseases, but nothing else. That's a bit selective, isn't it?

 

[torpid]

So, by applying TODAY'S RULES OF BIOLOGY, you are coming to conclusions. Congratu-fucking-lations, you still don't get it.

This is making some sense now. We existed in this garden place where all rules of biology and physics and what not were not present. Dude and dudette eat an apple, and angry God changes all of the rules of physics and biology so that his once-perfect creation is now totally screwy and subject to viruses and the like. Correct?

Or he stopped having a preventative influence on the development of said harmful diseases/virii/harmful bacterial. Think outside the box. Hell, think at all.

Wait... so now we are thinking maybe there were harmful viruses and bacteria back then? How would that be possible? They would not have been harmful if they couldn't actually do harm at the time. They must surely have been benign little cell things that just sort of sat around on their mother's couch all day and watched soap operas.

 

[torpid]

If they could choose to disobey him, then sin existed within Adam and Eve before they bit the apple.

You're the one not following along.

How can humans who are perfect, who are without sin, become imperfect, sin, and defy god?

LOGIC AND REASON, HOW THE FUCK DO THEY WORK!

Wow. Your sarcasm detector is clearly broken!

As to your assertions about logic: see above. CLEARLY the rules of logic were different during the times of adam and eve. What was true was false, up was down, and Rob Schneider made really good movies. Duh.

 

[GotIssues]

If they could choose to disobey him, then sin existed within Adam and Eve before they bit the apple.

Murder exists, but I need to commit the act before I'm guilty of it.

If you are trying to go tangential routes to try and win your argument, you are failing miserably.

You're the one not following along.

How can humans who are perfect, who are without sin, become imperfect, sin, and defy god?

Humans were never perfect. It was made abundantly clear that humans were never perfect. Don't try and use knowledge you think you have, because it's obvious you don't have it.

LOGIC AND REASON, HOW THE FUCK DO THEY WORK!

I know, it's obvious you don't know what those are.

You claim logic and reason, yet you fail to use them. Logic and reason dictates that changing a timeline alters everything along that timeline. Not removing people from the Garden of Eden drastically changes everything, but you, being the fucking retarded no sense dipshit you are, continually try to apply rules from the real world into it.

Words can't describe how completely baffled I am as to how the simple concept of "hey, things are different" cannot be processed by your feeble mind.





Wait...


Am I being punk'd? No one is this fuckign stupid. You HAVE to be Ashton Kutcher. Haha, you had me going there. I really felt bad for the human race for a second.

 

[GotIssues]

Wow. Your sarcasm detector is clearly broken!

As to your assertions about logic: see above. CLEARLY the rules of logic were different during the times of adam and eve. What was true was false, up was down, and Rob Schneider made really good movies. Duh.

Or the course of history and evolution change in this scenario becase of the fact that the Garden of Eden, which is a God-run paradise, exists.

HOLY SHIT, YOU MEAN THAT IF AN OMNIPOTENT BEING IS OVERSEEING MY EXISTENCE WITH THE IDEA THAT I'D BE IMMORTAL WOULD HAVE AN AFFECT ON HOW THINGS TURN OUT THE THOUSANDS/MILLIONS OF YEARS LATER? NO FUCKING WAY!

You two retards agreeing with each other doesn't magically mean your pathetically idiotic posts are have any merit or logic.

Logic isn't diplomatic. Two of you agreeing doesn't make you right. It just means there should have been 2 more abortions that didn't happen.

 

[GotIssues]

So bacteria, viruses and other harmful microbes evolved because God kicked humans out of paradise? Wouldn't he have to create them in the first place? Or did they spontaneously generate from nothingness after God ejected Adam and Eve from paradise? Your either arguing for evolution or abiogenesis, and strictly for diseases, but nothing else. That's a bit selective, isn't it?

I'm not being selective. You should read ALL the words: Key word in my posts: Harmful. I didnt' say they didn't exist, I was saying they weren't harmful because humans were being protected from them.

Now, in a paradise run by an omnipotent being who is preserving the immortality of those being inside paradise, isn't it reasonably plausible he keeps the harmful things from harming the creatures he wishes to remain alive?

 

[GotIssues]

This is making some sense now. We existed in this garden place where all rules of biology and physics and what not were not present. Dude and dudette eat an apple, and angry God changes all of the rules of physics and biology so that his once-perfect creation is now totally screwy and subject to viruses and the like. Correct?

Physics had never, ever entered the discussion, stop being a stupid jackass.

As for the current rules of biology. I'd think that they'd be altered a bit by the fact that humans are a) immortal b) under the protection of an omnipotent being. Do you disagree that if virii and the such were completely unable to harm/kill humans, that the rules of biology change from a world in which they can? Or are you going to continue to cling to your pathetic conclusions?

Wait... so now we are thinking maybe there were harmful viruses and bacteria back then? How would that be possible? They would not have been harmful if they couldn't actually do harm at the time. They must surely have been benign little cell things that just sort of sat around on their mother's couch all day and watched soap operas.

I guess I should update it to say "potentially harmful" - I was using the term in order to more accurately identify what I was talking about. I just assumed you had enough brain power to figure that one out yourself. My mistake.

 

[Nik]

wow, we got a live one on our hands, folks

a real, genuine zealot religiotard.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Why do you always show up in a religious type topic. Are you Nero reincarnate?

. As for the guy your attacking . His reply isn't all that bad . But it is also possiable for virus to piggy back in from spave hitching a ride so to speak on a meteor

 

[torpid]

Were these viruses harmful to the animals that Adam was given? Maybe your wording was fine; they were harmful, but not to humans. Just animals. Which Adam perhaps ate, but was under God's protection spell and was therefore immune to

 

[Malak]

Agreed; Any "god" that is willing to condemn all humans for all of eternity to being mortals for something one human being did {thousands/millions} of years ago and thereby subject all generations to mutations and the like clearly lacks ethics and doesn't care about any human beings enough to actually interact with them.

This must be that mythical god atheists don't believe in but always reference. Never really figured your antireligion out...

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Are you really that narcissistic that you think that if god exists that he would bend to your will to have him prove himself?

It is suggested that the Christian god desires for all individuals to recognize his existence.

It is inconsistent to argue that the Christian god has unfettered means to realize this desire when people still do not recognize his existence. It is only reasonable to conclude that either he does not actually desire for all individuals to recognize his existence, or he is unable to realize his desire (or he doesn't exist, naturally).

 

[Nemesis 1]

Were these viruses harmful to the animals that Adam was given? Maybe your wording was fine; they were harmful, but not to humans. Just animals. Which Adam perhaps ate, but was under God's protection spell and was therefore immune to

Adam never ate flesh till he got booted

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

No, he's saying that you are applying current rules to a different situation. The world where the Garden of Eden exists is essentially a competely different world than that in which we live today. Completely different. As in nothing the same. Nothing. Not the same in any regard. Different on every level. Changed in every respect that you can imagine. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? How many times does this have to be said for it to get through people's thick skulls?

How is it that you can simultaneously assert that "the world where the Garden of Eden exists" is "completely different" and "changed in every respect you can imagine" and then expect us to believe that you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about when you make claims about what it would have been like?

Just because mutations would happen IN TODAY'S WORLD does not mean it would happen in the given scenario. In all liklihood, given the nature of what the Garden of Eden was supposed to be, mutations would have never happened. Diseases would have never happened. Evolution would have never happened (as evolution was need-based, which nothing was ever needed in Eden, as it was provided).

Evolution is not "need-based." Evolution is what happens to imperfect replicators. Unless you are asserting that either no reproduction occurred, or that all offspring were clones, evolution would have happened.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Trollin, trollin, trollin, keep these religious threads rollin.....

 

[Nik]

This must be that mythical god atheists don't believe in but always reference. Never really figured your antireligion out...

Where is your god, then?

When have you, personally, met with and spoken with your god?

 

[Jeff7]

Ok, so hang on, God created the Garden of Eden, a perfect place where humans could live in eternal peace, whilst he kept all the effects of the dangerous and nasty things at bay.
But then for a small transgression, they were kicked out of the Garden forever, because God apparently is an excessively and sadistically harsh parent, banished into the hostile world beyond.

Question then: Why exactly would God even create such a manner of hostile environment in the first place? Why even create organisms that even have the potential to be harmful to other things? (And of course it's been brought up already, but what the hell: Why would he allow dangerous entities to get inside the Garden? "Yes, it's a perfect awesome peaceful place - Oh by the way, the embodiment of Evil itself also lives in here, and I really don't feel like going to the trouble of asking him to leave, just a heads-up on that.")

...
Humans were never perfect. It was made abundantly clear that humans were never perfect. Don't try and use knowledge you think you have, because it's obvious you don't have it.
...

Humans were never perfect?
Ok, so God makes imperfect humans - meaning he created them along with a list of known issues. (Human-run manufacturers actually do this, particularly for things like microcontrollers or processors. They publish the errata data so that customers can work around problems until the next silicon revision hits the market.)
So we've got imperfect humans with known flaws.
Then one of the humans performs a behavior that is due to one of these flaws.
Then God punishes the humans (and all of their offspring) because they performed within expected parameters.

...yeah.

Originally Posted by torpid
Agreed; Any "god" that is willing to condemn all humans for all of eternity to being mortals for something one human being did {thousands/millions} of years ago and thereby subject all generations to mutations and the like clearly lacks ethics and doesn't care about any human beings enough to actually interact with them.

This must be that mythical god atheists don't believe in but always reference. Never really figured your antireligion out...

Yes, exactly. The mythical Christian God.

 

[busydude]

The.
Rules.
Are.
Not.
The.
Same.
As.
The.
Rules.
Of.
Today's.
World.

Are there any rules laid out? Do the dominant species resemble us humans in physical appearance?

 

[Kadarin]

So, by applying TODAY'S RULES OF BIOLOGY, you are coming to conclusions. Congratu-fucking-lations, you still don't get it.



The.
Rules.
Are.
Not.
The.
Same.
As.
The.
Rules.
Of.
Today's.
World.



Or he stopped having a preventative influence on the development of said harmful diseases/virii/harmful bacterial. Think outside the box. Hell, think at all.

I give up. You are seriously too fucking dense to get it. Seriously, I didn't think that such a simple concept was difficult to grasp. I guess I overestimated the "specials" that seem to frequent here.

"Hell, think at all."

Think? Your post isn't "thinking", it's "making shit up". It's "I can't explain it, so maybe things were just different then, and maybe God did something".

 

[Malak]

Yes, exactly. The mythical Christian God.

My not so subtle implication was that the description given does not apply to any god that I have seen in any religion except atheism. Typical troll rants are typical.

 

[Jeff7]

My not so subtle implication was that the description given does not apply to any god that I have seen in any religion except atheism. Typical troll rants are typical.

Yup, I saw that, and I said what I did because the Christian god most definitely does fit the description of "willing to condemn all humans for all of eternity to being mortals for something one human being did {thousands/millions} of years ago and thereby subject all generations to mutations and the like clearly lacks ethics and doesn't care about any human beings enough to actually interact with them." - unless you get get really creative about reading the Bible. When "interpretation" gets thrown into the mix and anything can be a metaphor, then anything can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Thus my not-so-subtle implication was that what you were saying does not seem to be supported by Genesis.