Question for UHC supporters

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sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,583
2,818
136
Originally posted by: Phokus
Which is why healthcare costs here keep going up while people in nationalized healthcare countries pay half as much as we do? And they cover everyone while we have 50 million uninsured? And they don't deny people based on prexisting conditions like we do?

If your hypothesis is correct, universal healthcare would cost more than private care, not less like it does in other countries.

"Their inefficiency will only get worse as programs get larger. IF we believe this mythical 1-5% overhead number, do we believe they can keep that up? Will overhead not increase when the number of people on Medicare jumps from 42 million to 300 million?" <----- this doesn't even make sense. As more people join the federal health insurance, costs decrease. If you know anything about finance or accounting, fixed costs will get spread over more and more people while variable costs will rise in proportion to the number of people who enroll. The net result is overhead will go down. Please don't talk about things you have no idea about.

1) Other countries != United States
I have absolutely no confidence in Congress' ability to do anything efficiently, regardless of what other countries do.

2)If YOU knew anything about economics you'd know that governments, especially ours, don't operate like companies do. That's why I referred to them as a "reverse corporation". Is has been economically and mathematically proven that government inefficiency INCREASES as the locus of control increases. Don't believe me? Check out Harvey S. Rosen and Ted Gayer, Public Finance, 8th Edition (2008). I have a degree in Economics. I am an honors graduate student in business. I have professional training and designations in finance and accounting. I know what I'm talking about.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Phokus
Also, keep in mind countries with socialized/single payer health care spend half as much as we do, so whatever you pay now, you would pay much less (via taxes).

So maybe to make sure there's no rationing, maybe keep the same amount of expenditure on healthcare, but switch over to the much more efficient single payer structure (and save a ton of overhead) and receive more/better/quicker healthcare.

Oh, so we can save less money, but Grandma has to go 6-12 months before she can get her knee replaced. Meanwhile she's living in pain or on pain killers and can't get around without assistance.

Got cancer? Well 6 months ago it was just in your lung, now it's in your lymph nodes and pancrease. Good luck.

The government wants to go after M$, Google, and other "big" companies for monopolies, but won't touch medical companies. $15 a pill for Viagra. $200 per titanium screw used in a surgery. $8 per Tylenol pill at the hospital.
Why won't the .gov go after them and make them charge reasonable prices, and not collude and scheme to rip off patients because they know people will pay whatever it takes to stay alive or out of pain.
I don't have to buy M$ products or use Google, but if I'm in the hospital, I have no choice as to what is used on or in me.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Except they'd still go there because they wouldn't have UHC. duh... they are ILLEGALS!

So? They are still your problem.

The point is - UHC won't solve that problem. Securing the borders, strict enforcement of immigration law will though. But that's a different subject. UHC wouldn't be for illegals(unless open border libs got their way).

It doesn't really matter either way as illegal immigrants are not the cause of our current health care problems. They comprise a small percentage of our health care spending.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: Phokus
Which is why healthcare costs here keep going up while people in nationalized healthcare countries pay half as much as we do? And they cover everyone while we have 50 million uninsured? And they don't deny people based on prexisting conditions like we do?

If your hypothesis is correct, universal healthcare would cost more than private care, not less like it does in other countries.

"Their inefficiency will only get worse as programs get larger. IF we believe this mythical 1-5% overhead number, do we believe they can keep that up? Will overhead not increase when the number of people on Medicare jumps from 42 million to 300 million?" <----- this doesn't even make sense. As more people join the federal health insurance, costs decrease. If you know anything about finance or accounting, fixed costs will get spread over more and more people while variable costs will rise in proportion to the number of people who enroll. The net result is overhead will go down. Please don't talk about things you have no idea about.

1) Other countries != United States
I have absolutely no confidence in Congress' ability to do anything efficiently, regardless of what other countries do.

2)If YOU knew anything about economics you'd know that governments, especially ours, don't operate like companies do. That's why I referred to them as a "reverse corporation". Is has been economically and mathematically proven that government inefficiency INCREASES as the locus of control increases. Don't believe me? Check out Harvey S. Rosen and Ted Gayer, Public Finance, 8th Edition (2008). I have a degree in Economics. I am an honors graduate student in business. I have professional training and designations in finance and accounting. I know what I'm talking about.


Apparently you don't:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.


Nobody would trust the government to run google, where hi-tech innovation happens. However, this is basically paperwork we're talking about.

Rip up your degrees, because it's completed wasted on someone as ignorant as yourself. FYI, i work in finance and accounting as well. The fact that you don't seem to understand what fixed and variable costs are is actually quite funny. But please, i do want to know more about your 'education', please brag more!
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: senseamp

Your point being? It's not like I see that $6500 in my pocket now, so even if it was taxed 100%, it still wouldn't change my take home pay. The only change is that it would go to single payer UHC plan instead of an insurance company.

Health care costs $13,000.

Scenario A:
Your employer pays $6500
You pay $6500

Scenario B:
Your employer gives you $6500
You pay $1625 in taxes
You pay $13000 in UHC costs

Net loss: $1625

And yes, if you expect costs to go down under a UHC plan you're crazy.

But you're missing an important figure.

With mandatory UHC the cost per family per year comes down to between $2,700 & $4,500. So yeah, I would take the $6,500 and pay my own premiums. Even with taxes I could come out ahead or at least neutral.

Having said that, UHC will probably be a combination of a certain percentage of salary, a certain percentage paid by employer directly to the fund, and add ons will be optional.

One indirect benefit of UHC is people will be able to choose or change their employment without fear of losing health benefits. That is a major consideration when looking for a job.


 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: senseamp

Your point being? It's not like I see that $6500 in my pocket now, so even if it was taxed 100%, it still wouldn't change my take home pay. The only change is that it would go to single payer UHC plan instead of an insurance company.

Health care costs $13,000.

Scenario A:
Your employer pays $6500
You pay $6500

Scenario B:
Your employer gives you $6500
You pay $1625 in taxes
You pay $13000 in UHC costs

Net loss: $1625

And yes, if you expect costs to go down under a UHC plan you're crazy.

Considering government health insurance has an overhead of 1% while private insurance has an overhead of 20-30%, yes costs will go down.


You slow or something? This has been addressed many times in multiple threads as bunk. Medicare pushes many of those costs you see in private insurance onto the medical providers. So while technically correct, the only thing they are measuring is paper pushing and nothing else. Their paper pushing may be cheaper than private insurance but that isnt the only overhead cost involved.

Tell me, do you need multiple CEO's with tens of millions of dollars each in compensation with universal healthcare? Do you need as many accountants? Do you need as many buildings? Do you need as many salesmen (do you even need salesmen with UHC?)? Do you need multiple IT systems/infrastructure?

UHC is less expensive, that's a fact. Just look at how much other countries are paying covering their entire population vs. us who only covers part of the population.

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Except they'd still go there because they wouldn't have UHC. duh... they are ILLEGALS!

So? They are still your problem.

The point is - UHC won't solve that problem. Securing the borders, strict enforcement of immigration law will though. But that's a different subject. UHC wouldn't be for illegals(unless open border libs got their way).

It doesn't really matter either way as illegal immigrants are not the cause of our current health care problems. They comprise a small percentage of our health care spending.

So do the uninsured (depending on your definition of small) Also, I was commenting on someone else's statement about ILLEGALS.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I'm just going to post this again, because conservatives are so hilariously ignorant. Facts and logic are kryptonite to a republican:

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

But please, keep explaining to me how government paper pushing is more expensive and inefficient than free market paper pushing.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?
 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.

God forbid we have a government health insurance that's more efficient than the free market

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: senseamp

Your point being? It's not like I see that $6500 in my pocket now, so even if it was taxed 100%, it still wouldn't change my take home pay. The only change is that it would go to single payer UHC plan instead of an insurance company.

Health care costs $13,000.

Scenario A:
Your employer pays $6500
You pay $6500

Scenario B:
Your employer gives you $6500
You pay $1625 in taxes
You pay $13000 in UHC costs

Net loss: $1625

And yes, if you expect costs to go down under a UHC plan you're crazy.

Actually for most people who actually pay federal income taxes it would be like this.

Scenario c:

Your employer gives you $0
You pay $0 in taxes
You pay $13000 in UHC costs

Net loss: $6500 per working person. So 2 married people would see a net loss of 13000.






 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.

God forbid we have a government health insurance that's more efficient than the free market

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

What does the socialist Kool-Aid taste like? Cherry with hint of totalitarianism.

BTW, what does govt. do better than the free market? Oh yeah--nothing.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.

God forbid we have a government health insurance that's more efficient than the free market

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

What does the socialist Kool-Aid taste like? Cherry with hint of totalitarianism.

BTW, what does govt. do better than the free market? Oh yeah--nothing.

What does facts/figures/logic taste like? Oh yeah, it's like cyanide to you guys.

You Repugs can spew all the rhetoric you like, but in the face of facts and logic, you have nothing to say.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Phokus

Tell me, do you need multiple CEO's with tens of millions of dollars each in compensation with universal healthcare? Do you need as many accountants? Do you need as many buildings? Do you need as many salesmen (do you even need salesmen with UHC?)? Do you need multiple IT systems/infrastructure?

UHC is less expensive, that's a fact. Just look at how much other countries are paying covering their entire population vs. us who only covers part of the population.

How does any of your response address you claiming 1% overhead for Medicare is incorrect?

That said and to entertain you. How much does a CEO's 10 million dollar salary cost when the industry is over 1 trillion? The answer is pennies and is irrelevant.

Of course you will need buildings, of course you will need accountants. How the hell is the system going keep its books? And yes it will need an administrator while cheaper than a CEO. Will still cost money.

UHC is cheaper if you want it to be. I could come out with a plan tomorrow that costs 300 million dollars\year and grants 1 dollar coverage to every American. Anything above and beyond is prohibited due to rationing. So the real issue isnt the fact some UHC costs less on a per capita. The real issue is how? Are they rationing? Are they getting lower care? Are we willing as a nation to reduce our quality to cover costs? I suspect we wont and it will cost a shitload of money because we feel entitled to the best damned the costs!
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
So, other countries have lower health costs. They have 'UHC' so some here seem to think that by us slapping the 'UHC' label on our system we'll magically get those lower costs.

Ain't gonna work folks. Unless and until our systems are exactly like their's, and our population's health is exactly like their's, we're gonna be more expensive.

I lived under UHC in Eurpean countires, their doctors made less. The US pharmacy companies sold them drugs cheaper than us (we're subsidizing the globe as it is now) Their system is not battered by trial lawyers etc. Their people were not as obese and ate far better than what I see over here in the USA. They don't have large numbers of illegal immigrants using their health care resources. All these little different things add up.

You can slap the UHC label all over our system to your little heart's content, but you can't duplicate what they have.

The UHC label itself is bogus here, what it really is UHI (Universl Health Insurance).

Yeah right, under UHC we're gonna get MORE medical benefits for LESS money. If it sounds too good to be true....

Fern
 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.

God forbid we have a government health insurance that's more efficient than the free market

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

What does the socialist Kool-Aid taste like? Cherry with hint of totalitarianism.

BTW, what does govt. do better than the free market? Oh yeah--nothing.

What does facts/figures/logic taste like? Oh yeah, it's like cyanide to you guys.

You Repugs can spew all the rhetoric you like, but in the face of facts and logic, you have nothing to say.

That's funny your "facts"/"figures" don't indicate the increasing business of Canadians crossing the border for health care. It also doesn't seem to indicate that Canada has one tenth of the population of the US. Also to add to that, Canada paid about the same amount in taxes as the US--again a country with 10 times the population of Canada's. I guess you don't need overhead when care is basically refused or you don't have to answer the phone. You know that they have raffles for primary care physicians there right? And that the city of Philadelphia has more MRI machines than all of Canada?
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: Fern
So, other countries have lower health costs. They have 'UHC' so some here seem to think that by us slapping the 'UHC' label on our system we'll magically get those lower costs.

Ain't gonna work folks. Unless and until our systems are exactly like their's, and our population's health is exactly like their's, we're gonna be more expensive.

I lived under UHC in Eurpean countires, their doctors made less. The US pharmacy companies sold them drugs cheaper than us (we're subsidizing the globe as it is now) Their system is not battered by trial lawyers etc. Their people were not as obese and ate far better than what I see over here in the USA. They don't have large numbers of illegal immigrants using their health care resources. All these little different things add up.

You can slap the UHC label all over our system to your little heart's content, but you can't duplicate what they have.

The UHC label itself is bogus here, what it really is UHI (Universl Health Insurance).

Yeah right, under UHC we're gonna get MORE medical benefits for LESS money. If it sounds to good to be true....

Fern

Well, tons of us are going to get medical benefits. Period.

You seem to forget about that group.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.

God forbid we have a government health insurance that's more efficient than the free market

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

What does the socialist Kool-Aid taste like? Cherry with hint of totalitarianism.

BTW, what does govt. do better than the free market? Oh yeah--nothing.

What does facts/figures/logic taste like? Oh yeah, it's like cyanide to you guys.

You Repugs can spew all the rhetoric you like, but in the face of facts and logic, you have nothing to say.

That's funny your "facts"/"figures" don't indicate the increasing business of Canadians crossing the border for health care. It also doesn't seem to indicate that Canada has one tenth of the population of the US. Also to add to that, Canada paid about the same amount in taxes as the US--again a country with 10 times the population of Canada's. I guess you don't need overhead when care is basically refused or you don't have to answer the phone. You know that they have raffles for primary care physicians there right? And that the city of Philadelphia has more MRI machines than all of Canada?

Are those MRI machines fully utilized all the time?

If not, then it's a perfect example of waste.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Just how is it less expensive?

These countries only spend a certain percentage of GDP on UHC. Something like 7 or 8%-- this in turn leads to rationing--you know waiting two years for a knee replacement or even cardiac surgery. Healthcare costs what it costs an IV bag is going to cost the same here as it does in Britain.

Every system with limited resources rations care. We do it here in America too. I'm not sure why it's better because we hide it.

We've already made the decision that everyone in America will get health care. That's why we've passed laws that prohibit denying care to critically sick people. That's the absolute most expensive form of health care you will ever get. (in my personal experience it was approximately $200,000 in a week and a half) Preventative care is far cheaper.

So, if we've already decided to give you the super expensive care no matter if you can pay or not, why not provide the cheap care that might make it unnecessary?

Totally agree. I've also seen some critically ill people that have come in that cost the state(Ca) millions including a month in the ICU and 3 months in acute care--these are just individual cases. They were illegal residents--but that is neither here or there, because they will get top quality care regardless. It happens all the time.

Like I said, I agree prevention is cheaper--but I just think UHC, like waterboardingD), should be a last resort. It's the govt. beaurocracy that has me worried.

God forbid we have a government health insurance that's more efficient than the free market

Results In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

What does the socialist Kool-Aid taste like? Cherry with hint of totalitarianism.

BTW, what does govt. do better than the free market? Oh yeah--nothing.

Fight wars. /thread
 

SecPro

Member
Jul 17, 2007
147
0
0
Correction to article that Phukus is casting about.

There has been no apples to apples comparison of our current healthcare system and and UHC in other countries. It's always about total cost, it's never about wait times, level of service and other specifics. The article I linked to above sort of adresses that in a general way.


There is little doubt that per capita health care administrative costs are lower in Canada than in the United States, as Woolhandler et al. report (Aug. 21 issue),1 even though the precise magnitude of the gap is open to debate, a point that Aaron makes in his accompanying editorial.2 However, the Canadian single-payer system results in chronic shortages of medical services because of underfunding. The underfunding problem is usually considered to be a separate issue from the single-payer system itself,2 but the very structure of the single-payer system may cause the problem.

In the United States, persons who wish to spend more on health care than the norm have a simple way of doing so: they can purchase premium private medical insurance. Notwithstanding the Medicare prescription-drug plans currently being discussed, it is generally not an option in the United States to increase medical expenditures through the taxation system, given contemporary political and fiscal constraints. In Canada, however, increases in medical expenditures are possible largely only through the taxation system. And even if, as some surveys suggest, most Canadians are willing to spend more on health care,3 taxpayers cannot be sure that any given tax increase will actually go to health care expenditures. Therefore, Canadian taxpayers generally resist tax increases, and underfunding and chronic shortages result.


It's a key point and at the crux of the issue for many of us who oppose a government UHC
"solution".
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: SecPro
Correction to article that Phukus is casting about.

There has been no apples to apples comparison of our current healthcare system and and UHC in other countries. It's always about total cost, it's never about wait times, level of service and other specifics. The article I linked to above sort of adresses that in a general way.


There is little doubt that per capita health care administrative costs are lower in Canada than in the United States, as Woolhandler et al. report (Aug. 21 issue),1 even though the precise magnitude of the gap is open to debate, a point that Aaron makes in his accompanying editorial.2 However, the Canadian single-payer system results in chronic shortages of medical services because of underfunding. The underfunding problem is usually considered to be a separate issue from the single-payer system itself,2 but the very structure of the single-payer system may cause the problem.

In the United States, persons who wish to spend more on health care than the norm have a simple way of doing so: they can purchase premium private medical insurance. Notwithstanding the Medicare prescription-drug plans currently being discussed, it is generally not an option in the United States to increase medical expenditures through the taxation system, given contemporary political and fiscal constraints. In Canada, however, increases in medical expenditures are possible largely only through the taxation system. And even if, as some surveys suggest, most Canadians are willing to spend more on health care,3 taxpayers cannot be sure that any given tax increase will actually go to health care expenditures. Therefore, Canadian taxpayers generally resist tax increases, and underfunding and chronic shortages result.


It's a key point and at the crux of the issue for many of us who oppose a government UHC
"solution".

Of course you completely ignore the reply to what you posted. If Canada can provide similar service to ALL canadians vs. Americans who pay TWICE as much but can't cover everyone, then i'm all for the canadian plan. That screams inefficiency in the 'free market'. What's the answer to shortages when you only pay half as much as america? Have Canadians fund the same amount for healthcare that Americans do and make the American system look even MORE pathetic.

The authors reply: As Sekhon points out, Canada's health care spending is low ? 57 percent of the U.S. figure per capita1 ? despite universal, nationwide health insurance. Modest differences in net physician income account for little of the cost differential, about 2 percent. However, Canada's frugality has caused shortages of some expensive services. These shortages are overblown in the press, which seldom reports that the rates of most services provided to Canadians ? doctor visits, hospital days, immunizations, and even transplantations and hip replacements ? are similar to American rates.1 Moreover, the quality of care appears to be similar to that for insured Americans.2

Since the implementation of nationwide health insurance, infant mortality and life expectancy have improved faster in Canada than in the United States.1 Although Canadians may spend too little, they get far better value for their money. A system combining Canadian efficiency and U.S. spending levels, as we have proposed elsewhere,3 would be the world's best.

We disagree with Sekhon that tax-based funding automatically means underfunding. In the United States, government expenditures for health care have expanded faster than private expenditures. Moreover, the government generously supports medical education and research, along with defense contractors and tobacco prices. In Canada, the electorate has recently forced governments to boost health care spending. Government spending can be skimpy or exuberant, depending on who is for it and who is against it.

Navarro and also Reinhardt and Cheng criticize Aaron's political judgment. His economic critique of our methods was also flawed, because it was based on incorrect assumptions about comparative wages. He started from a hypothetical example of a nation with wages 1/10 those in the United States, positing that lower wages (a feature of Canada's system that could not be imported) account for much of Canada's administrative savings. Yet Canada's lower health care prices are not explained by lower wage rates. In 1996 (the latest year for which data are available), the average annual pay of hospital administrative workers in the two nations was virtually identical: $26,807 in Canada and $27,570 in the United States (unpublished analysis of data from the March 1997 U.S. Current Population Survey and the 1996 Canadian Census). Aaron's recalculation of our figures is based largely on his incorrect wage assumption.

Finally, Tuckson calls our attention to errors in Table 3 of our article. The correct enrollment figure for United Healthcare is 16,500,000, putting United Healthcare's number of employees per enrollee at the low end of U.S. insurers, rather than the high end (though still 10 times as high as Canada's provincial plans). Our error derives from our incorrect assumption that a table in UnitedHealth Group's annual report provided complete data on enrollment. In fact, after a recent reorganization, UnitedHealth Group began doing about half of its health insurance business under the Uniprise name.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Originally posted by: Fern
So, other countries have lower health costs. They have 'UHC' so some here seem to think that by us slapping the 'UHC' label on our system we'll magically get those lower costs.

Ain't gonna work folks. Unless and until our systems are exactly like their's, and our population's health is exactly like their's, we're gonna be more expensive.

I lived under UHC in Eurpean countires, their doctors made less. The US pharmacy companies sold them drugs cheaper than us (we're subsidizing the globe as it is now) Their system is not battered by trial lawyers etc. Their people were not as obese and ate far better than what I see over here in the USA. They don't have large numbers of illegal immigrants using their health care resources. All these little different things add up.

You can slap the UHC label all over our system to your little heart's content, but you can't duplicate what they have.

The UHC label itself is bogus here, what it really is UHI (Universl Health Insurance).

Yeah right, under UHC we're gonna get MORE medical benefits for LESS money. If it sounds too good to be true....

Fern

I'm sorry Fern, but you can't possibly be arguing against UHC based on what you mentioned in your post.

The US isn't the fattest around anymore, Australia is now the fattest country in the world. Yes, more obese than even the vaunted United States of America. Their per-capita health care costs? About $3,000 per year compared to more than $5200 a year for Americans. (57% higher!)

Malpractice costs in both premiums and payouts for cases comprise right about two percent of US health care spending. They simply aren't the cause of high rates. In addition, illegal immigrants use health care resources at approximately half the rate of a normal US citizen if not less. Considering the number of illegal immigrants in the US is estimated to be around 20 million or so, that would mean that they would account for about 3.2% of US spending.

As for drug costs, so what if we're subsidizing the drug companies? That seems to be an admission on your part that we are paying artificially inflated prices for drugs. No thanks. If you want to subsidize drug company research then directly subsidize the research you want, lets not just throw gigantic piles of money at these people and hope they do what we want. Doctor's salaries, while higher in the US are not that much higher, and once again certainly don't come close to accounting for the disparity in health care costs. (also, it's very easy to make the argument that the AMA is artificially inflating salaries for doctors by creating artificial scarcity.)

So your post describing why UHC won't work is based upon our higher rates of obesity when other countries are fatter and still spend a fraction of what we do, and court costs and illegal immigration which probably comprise about 5% of our total spending, and the fact that we subsidize drug companies for no reason.

These are not compelling arguments. Oh, and since UHC systems are more efficient than what we have now, a more efficient system by definition gives you more for less money.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I think Fern said we are subsidizing the worlds drug consumption via our high costs instead of subsidizing companies. I agree that we shouldnt be doing this. Make the rest of the world pay up.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
I think Fern said we are subsidizing the worlds drug consumption via our high costs instead of subsidizing companies. I agree that we shouldnt be doing this. Make the rest of the world pay up.

I agree that's what he said. If we've decided we want to subsidize drug companies (presumably so they do more research) that's fine with me, but lets subsidize the research we want so we actually get something for our money, not just throw sacks of cash at them and pray.
 
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