Question for you IT folks.

[NIUBurned]

I'll be graduating in may of '05 with a what we call BS in Operations and Information Managment, emph in Information Systems. This is a four year BS degree that combines the aspects of Operations and IT. You can emph in operations but I, ofcourse, chose Info Syst. This program is a business degree, which means that I've also taken a significant amount of business courses (from accounting to managment). I also plan on getting a MSCA certification this summer. How well set up am I to get a entry level job in IT (along the lines of network admn, more or less) upon graduation? Basically, will i be set to get a foot in the door?

Thanks gentlemen.

 

[ScottMac]

I'm not an IT person (not anymore), but I'd say you have a very good start.

In my opinion, you should start looking for a good internship. The pay for interns is generally not great, but in many place you do get benefits. The experience will look good on your resume, and many / most / all places with an internship program will give preference to interns if they perform well during their internship.

Good Luck

Scott

 

[Cheetah8799]

Honestly, if you want to be a network admin you're going to need more than just business courses. You may want to consider taking more computer science and network specific classes at tech schools (not necessarily a degree), and maybe look at certifications in specific networking technologies. Cisco Certification will definately get you somewhere. Your B.S. degree will help, but it's the specific skills that will help you get a job and do it well.

I'm talking about things like how TCP/IP really works, various other protocols, how to configure Cisco routers, how to setup DNS, DHCP, etc.

You may also want to start learning how to setup large network services using Linux based servers. Build your own firewall, dhcp server, dns server, etc. Then see if it all works. You can do all this with very old and cheap hardware. And the knowledge will be something you can actually use in the workplace.

Because you are fresh out of school, don't expect to get a full "network administrator" job at a big company. You'll probably have to start as a lower level admin and work your way up, assuming you can even get in the door. There aren't many jobs out there right now, at least not where I live.

good luck.

 

[Pulsar]

Frankly, I'm surprised that they're offering degrees like that.

As someone else commented, you need far more specialization in networking, and less business oriented training. Especially if you intend to try to work your way through the "ranks". What you'll find is most places expect you to have the hard grounding in network issues, and fully expect you to grab a masters of business, etc while you're working to move up to management. True management positions are few and far between, and unless you have a degree from places like MIT, Stanford, Purdue, etc, with an incredible GPA, it's a VERY rare college grad that gets placed in management right out of school.

Get an internship, as stated, and prove you can do the job well.

 

[NIUBurned]

Id love an internship, however, they are extremly tough to get. (my gpa is temperatly in the dumps, im retaking a *9* credit class) Also, if I get an internship there goes my ability to get the MCSA cert before I graduate.

Yah, I agree with you guys, I'd love it if my school offered a pure networking degree....however....im not sure if there are any fairly large (my school is 25,000) schools that offer bachlors in essentially pure networking. There may be some...or maybe more than I thought. I was formally a computer science major...but honestly, I despise programming. So I have taken C, C++. I know with this major I will end up with some experience in databases and a much larger concept how to use IT to solve business problems than I'd get at a tech school. See, the one really positive thing about this program is that you wont get at a tech school is really how to use IT to solve business problems. Yah, with a pure IT degree you learn how to implement what management tells you to implement. You can physically set it up, but what this degree offers me is a better chance of being that manager that tells the IT guy what we need done. Or..at least....I'd like to believe that. And don't get me wrong, we do get technical in our classes, but I'm not quite sure yet at what level we get technical at, and how much. It wont be till my next year of classes that I'm hardcore into the core classes.

Hell, they do offer a certificate of MIS. It looks like a bunch of graduate program classes 600+ But its not a graduate program...i believe its good for those who get the degree but wish to go a little further. But again, they focus on the strategic, business manager approach. Which is good or bad depending on how you look at it.

OMIS 651, Business Systems Analysis and Design (3)
OMIS 652, Business Applications of Database Management Systems (3)
OMIS 660 Business Telecommunications (3)
OR OMIS 661, Business Decision Technologies (3)
OMIS 690, Information Technology Project Management (3)
OR OMIS 697, Strategic Information Systems (3)
ONE of the following:
OMIS 621, Computer Simulation in Business (3)
OMIS 649, Business Computing Environments (3)
OMIS 675, Technologies and Applications of Electronic Business (3)
OMIS 679, Business Geographics (3)
OMIS 694, Advanced Topics in Information Systems (3)

 

[NIUBurned]

badumpa

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: Cheetah8799
Honestly, if you want to be a network admin you're going to need more than just business courses. You may want to consider taking more computer science and network specific classes at tech schools (not necessarily a degree), and maybe look at certifications in specific networking technologies. Cisco Certification will definately get you somewhere. Your B.S. degree will help, but it's the specific skills that will help you get a job and do it well.

I'm talking about things like how TCP/IP really works, various other protocols, how to configure Cisco routers, how to setup DNS, DHCP, etc.

You may also want to start learning how to setup large network services using Linux based servers. Build your own firewall, dhcp server, dns server, etc. Then see if it all works. You can do all this with very old and cheap hardware. And the knowledge will be something you can actually use in the workplace.

Because you are fresh out of school, don't expect to get a full "network administrator" job at a big company. You'll probably have to start as a lower level admin and work your way up, assuming you can even get in the door. There aren't many jobs out there right now, at least not where I live.

good luck.

good advice :beer:

 

[Soybomb]

Don't put off work experience for certification. If you get a job where you do this stuff you'll be able to pick up a cert with minimal studying and the work experience will be worth uncountably more on your resume. I also don't think I'd call network admin entry level unless you're talking like an office of 20 people or something. Except jr admin, network technician or something along those lines working your way to full admin I'd say. Good luck, I think having some of the business training is a leg up on strictly technical Alot of the MIS/IS/IST degrees turn into just a "this is how you install windows" etc learn the procedure type class and if you wanted that you could go to ITT or some technical school. Get some basic concepts down that you can carry with you.

 

[Boscoh]

If your school offers it, you might want to enroll in a Cisco Networking Academy course for CCNA. But go talk to the prof who teaches it though. Some profs suck and teach the basics of what you need to know to pass the test, they dont teach you how TCP/IP works, how CRC works, etc etc.

If they dont offer it, you might want to take it at a junior college over the summer. Hands on with cisco stuff is more important IMO than having your CCNA. CCNA w/ no experience is worse than experience w/ no CCNA.

After that, get your CCNA. You have a BS, MSCA, and CCNA you'll be set pretty good to get your foot in the door. Ya know...Linux certs aint a bad thing either

 

[NIUBurned]

Thing is, its difficult to get a job when all you can really list on your resume is that I've been building computers for 6 years and I'm a year away from graduating college.

 

[Soybomb]

Originally posted by: NIUBurned
Thing is, its difficult to get a job when all you can really list on your resume is that I've been building computers for 6 years and I'm a year away from graduating college.

tech support, local computer, store, etc then. It won't be a great job but you'll get started. Even try the computer lab at your school.

 

[Nothinman]

Or evern computer operator, all you'll start out doing is swapping tapes and handling output but if you show to the rest of the IS/IT department that you have a clue a transfer shouldn't be out of the question if they need people. If you're in the Pittsburgh are we have some entry level (and non-entry level) slots open.

 

[cmetz]

NIUBurned, my company does IT and you have to get by me among other people to get hired. What I care about is experience, skills, adaptability, and getting things done. I need someone I can send out to fix a problem and know that either the problem will get fixed or that person will come back with a good reason why not or an escalation where he's done everything he can already and made it easy for someone else to take over. (that is, if you call for help, make it easy for someone to help you)

Certifications are straight out worthless to me. Don't care. In fact they get you negative clue points with me. You're a Cisco and Microsoft and A+ certified sucker. Greeeeat. I'll take the school of hard knocks any day.

College degrees are not a requirement but do help. A four year degree in something halfway real says that you can apply yourself towards a goal and meet it. A drop-out says you might not be a completer. One very real problem in this world is people who do an awesome job to 95% completion but never quite complete it.

Figuring it out yourself is critically important. I can tell you the answer. You can read the answer in a book. That tells you what, but not why. Fiddling with things yourself, being burned a little, tends to give you more real insight into how things work and why. That helps you on the job because the IT world is one of panics and pain, and when stuff's on fire, I just need someone who can figure it out and fix it. And real world stuff isn't in any textbook.

Oh, people skills too. Yeah, I know. I hate stupid lusers, but at the end of the day those stupid lusers are the people who generate the revenue that pays you, so you better learn to smile and help them with their problems. Most people are really pretty cool, it's just that they're not technical and don't want or need to be - that's your job. Then there's some people who are just difficult, and you just gotta be able to deal. You can't learn this, you start out with some degree and will pick it up with experience. Diplomacy is an experience thing mostly.

Find ways to do IT. Work at your college, work for a store, work for somebody's small business. Work experience. Very important. If you've done it before successfully, it's an easier sell than if you dream of someday doing it.

Just some random food for thought.

 

[Boscoh]

Very, very good points cmetz.

Unfortunately not all of the world shares your same views. A lot of companies wont even look at your resume unless you have letters behind your name or a degree. Shame that they wont even give you a chance, but that's the way it is at some places.

EDIT:
I also wanted to say that, like I mentioned in my previous post, I believe experience without a cert is orders of magnitude better than a cert with no experience. Same goes with a degree. You dont learn anything in a college degree plan that you couldnt learn on your own. A degree just means you know how to put up with a lot of crap, and still see your ultimate project to fruition.

You should not get certs hoping they will make you employable. Certs usually appeal to HR people, and people who haven't been in the industry a long time. A cert or two might get your foot in the door with the HR people at some company, but if the IT hiring guy gets to interview you and is good, he'll drill right through your piece of paper cert and see if you really know anything, if you dont, you're screwed.

Get experience. Get a cert last. You should get a cert only after you have experience and only if you need one to make you marketable to some company you want to work for. Unfortunately, certs are quickly becoming a marketing tool to market yourself and a business ("We're proud to have 300 CCIE's on staff to deal with all your complex problems...") and less of a measure of whether you know anything that could be applied to the real world. Plus the fact that some companies out there offer pricing bonuses to companies who employ a certain number of certified individuals. I know some guys who renew their CCIE's only because their company makes them so they can keep their pricing bonsues with Cisco...the fact that they're a CCIE is probably 25% of the reason they're employed with the company, not because they necessarily know a lot and can apply it, but because it helps the company's bottom-line.

Just my $.02

 

[Mucman]

Personally, I would rather work for someone who hires with cmetz's criteria. A job is where you are going to spend a lot of time. Do you think you'll have a good experience working for someone who hired you because of the acronyms after your name? I would rather work for someone who has some sort of clue to hire someone based on cmetz's criteria.

What many people don't understand about IT, is that knowing 10,000 cookie cutter solutions to IT problems don't handle the infinite problems that aren't in the set of cookie cutter solutions. IT requires problem solving, and to some extent, interpersonal skills.

I've only been working in IT for 2.5 years (and still working on my compsci degree), so take my advice with a couple grains of sea salt.

 

[NIUBurned]

Guys, I totally understand. I have applied for next fall's help desk, computer lab, and Training Team positions at my schools "ResTech"....the people who operate the schools networks. We shall see. My goal with this certification is that it would allow me to get that very first job that you guys are talking about. Ya, experience is GREAT but you have to get the job first! Now, this is a night class, so it does leave open the possibility of getting a job in the field and still taking the class. I mean, you guys cant tell me that I have as good of a chance getting a job now as I would with a degree and a cert. I don't expect to find the best job in the IT world when I graduate. I know this is going to be a long process with LOTS of learning. But I'm excited about it. I soak in this stuff like a sponge. You know...just as long as I dont find out I have to learn relearn calc...I'm ok.

 

[RhythmAddict]

Do all the internships you can handle. I can't stress that enough....they helped me a lot

 

[cmetz]

Boscoh, what you're getting at is the difference between big companies and small companies. Big companies have HR people, and there are some HR people who are awesome, but most of them are value subtracts for a company (you know, those people who do more damage than good). But in a big company, those HR people hold power and have a part in the hiring process. If candidate A requires a hiring manager to fight a major battle with HR to hire him, and candidate B doesn't, candidate A is simply going to have to be that much better AND the hiring manager is going to have to realize it and have the balls to go fight the fight. I have friends who are just plain brilliant, dropped out of college because they didn't see any value, and everyone who knows them would hire them without question if the opportunity arose - but those same friends lament the HR fight every time they change jobs with a big company.

A four-year degree in anything is useful to get by HR types.

All that said, I am personally heavily biased towards small and medium sized businesses. Big companies have their advantages too, but there's a lot of stupidity that goes on that in my opinion isn't worth the benefits. The main benefit of a big company is job security, and we've all seen in the past few years how reluctant big companies are to do layoffs (that is, not at all). It depends a lot on what you want in a job. For anyone seeking a job, I strongly suggest some soul-searching in this respect because you must culturally fit your job in order to be happy there.

Certifications and discounts is a good point. Several vendors for whom we're a reseller or integrator have told us that if we have two engineers certified through their gold-plus-supercalifragilistic training program, we'll get an extra x% discount. Every time that I have personally drilled down into this, it's been a huge game. I can send my sales guys in to discuss with their sales guys and extract that pound of flesh without requring me to sit in some silly class. They already told me exactly what x% discount to tell my sales guys to extract

NIUBurned, a campus IT job would be an excellent opportunity, pursue it aggressively. Also don't underestimate the value of fixing things for friends and for playing with things yourself at home. Both are great real-world learning techniques.

 

[NIUBurned]

If I can manage to get a IT job at my school it would be wonderful. I think my chances are decent. As to getting experience at home and with friends, I'm just about 23 now, and I have been building computers (and all the wonderful hours spent confused just to find you've accidentally popped off a jumper on the motherboard..) since I was 16 or 17. My real weakness is a lack of networking knowledge... It's very hard to get that kind of experience as a hobby. If i can land a job at my school, I think i would gain a great deal of knowledge and experience...depending on which job I land.

Now if you'd excuse me, i have to go turn in some forcasting homework....heh