Question to Atheists:

[irishScott]

How can you look at something like the Universe, with it's laws, rules, dimensions, shapes, and ORDER and deny, with absolute certainty, that there isn't a higher being behind it?

Now I'm not talking about the Christian, Muslim, Jewish or any other denomination's god, just the "God concept".

Personally, I'm a Deist, and (for me) he very fact that the Universe has order provides compelling (albeit not conclusive) evidence that a higher being must have had some role in it's creation. Whether that role is still active or not is anyone's guess, but I'd like to think he is.

As for Jesus, Mohammad (sp? no insult intended), and every other religious icon, they definitely existed, and they were definitely great philosophers with a lot of good points to make. As for them being divinely inspired/influenced, I am seriously skeptical. And their magic tricks (walking on water and such) were utter bullsh!t.

So getting back to the point, given the order present in the universe, how can you say, with 100% certainty, that there is no God? I don't care if you think of God as Zeus, Ra, Ogun, Jesus, Vishnu, Mohammad, Ancestors, Animal Spirits, Romulus, Cthulu (sp?), the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Grampa Phelps or George Bush. Just in the general "God concept" sense, how can you deny it?

EDIT: I don't mean to insult anyone here. I'm naturally curious about how people think.

EDIT 2: Seems that Desim might need some clarifying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Features_of_deism

 

[chusteczka]

Originally posted by: irishScott
How can you look at something like the Universe, with it's laws, rules, dimensions, shapes, and ORDER and deny, with absolute certainty, that there isn't a higher being behind it?

... Just in the general "God concept" sense, how can you deny it?

It is not so much the situation that a "God concept" is denied since this concept provides little relevance to life the way I live it. I do not deny any god's existence. I just do not give the thought any importance in my life.

To deny a god's existence, I would first have to consider such a concept to be important.

 

[Descartes]

Maybe you could actually present an argument? All you've given is rhetoric.

[edit]Oh, and educate yourself more about atheism, because your "100% certainty there is no god" isn't something espoused by many.[/edit]

 

[Flammable]

if there was a higher god, why is it that he would let us even think about atheism when creating "us"

EDIT:

Also, in many instances religion was only used to gain power not to ACTUALLY help people/ Look back a couple hundred years ago. Indulgences were a scam yet the archdiocese still supported it and appraised it.

 

[A Casual Fitz]

Originally posted by: irishScott

As for Jesus, Mohammad (sp? no insult intended), and every other religious icon, they definitely existed, and they were definitely great philosophers with a lot of good points to make.

Did you meet them or something?

 

[Rangoric]

I'm not Atheist and this is still an easy question.

Why do those things prove in any fashion that some higher being had to have done it?
Why should I take your evidence as proof, when you can not in fact, prove that God caused it to be that way?
Why must every unexplained thing (unexplained Order in your case) be cause to believe some higher power did it?

Back in the day it was beleived that a God traveled across the sky on a chariot bringing light to everyone.

 

[0roo0roo]

the problem of evil
looking at the universe? sure its big, but its also cruel and wasteful and filled with arbitrary suffering.

you can't look at that and think it was "god", and even if you did the best you could come up with is that god is an amoral being. and frankly thats basically a worthless.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: irishScott
As for Jesus, Mohammad (sp? no insult intended), and every other religious icon, they definitely existed, and they were definitely great philosophers with a lot of good points to make. As for them being divinely inspired/influenced, I am seriously skeptical. And their magic tricks (walking on water and such) were utter bullsh!t.

great philosophers? thats a stretch, especially in mohammeds case. a few grains of obvious and preexisting "widsom" in a haystack of harmful arbitrary senseless garbage is what their teachings were about. great manipulators of the people, thats what they were.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: A Casual Fitz

Originally posted by: irishScott

As for Jesus, Mohammad (sp? no insult intended), and every other religious icon, they definitely existed, and they were definitely great philosophers with a lot of good points to make.

Did you meet them or something?

Historical records show them as such, and I believe that the Bible, Koran, etc do contain their teachings. Just a mystified version of them.

 

[giantpinkbunnyhead]

Well for me, the idea that a higher being exists is more outrageous than the idea that the universe somehow ended up, naturally, in the degree of order that it's in. In other words, it's easier for me to accept that the universe just ended up the way it is due to coincidence, than for me to accept that there is a god or gods. I think that extraordinary coincidences don't mean a thing. But, that's just me.

 

[pyonir]

Why do you care so much? You believe in a higher power...i respect that and really don't care what your reasons are because they are yours. I don't believe in a higher power, respect that and know that my reasons are my own. I don't have to share my reasons or my beliefs any further than that, because they are mine...not yours, and i don't care what you believe in.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Descartes
Maybe you could actually present an argument? All you've given is rhetoric.

[edit]Oh, and educate yourself more about atheism, because your "100% certainty there is no god" isn't something espoused by many.[/edit]

That's kinda the definition of atheism. If you aren't 100% certain, that would make you agnostic...would it not?

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: irishScott
As for Jesus, Mohammad (sp? no insult intended), and every other religious icon, they definitely existed, and they were definitely great philosophers with a lot of good points to make. As for them being divinely inspired/influenced, I am seriously skeptical. And their magic tricks (walking on water and such) were utter bullsh!t.

great philosophers? thats a stretch, especially in mohammeds case. a few grains of obvious and preexisting "widsom" in a haystack of harmful arbitrary senseless garbage is what their teachings were about. great manipulators of the people, thats what they were.

Philosophers are philosophers. Whether they are great are not is dependent on history. If you look at many of the great "revered" philosophers closely enough, you'll find more disturbing crap then you'd probably expect.

 

[chusteczka]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
the problem of evil
looking at the universe? sure its big, but its also cruel and wasteful and filled with arbitrary suffering.

you can't look at that and think it was "god", and even if you did the best you could come up with is that god is an amoral being. and frankly thats basically a worthless.

This statement is ironic since one of the main aspects of religious philosophy is to provide a means to deal with the suffering experienced in life.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

You argue that the fact that there is order in the universe means that there should have been something that created such order.

1. There is order in the universe.
2. Order is created.
3. God created such order.

Here's where you'll run into problems:
1. God is a being that has order.
2. Order is created.
3. God was created?

If you counter argue with "God has always been," I can counter argue with "then it's just as safe to say that the universe has always been."

Just because the universe has order doesn't mean it had to have been created. If it were created, then what created God? God is ordered too isn't it?

Still, the very idea of existence (of anything) is a very hard thing to grasp.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: irishScott
As for Jesus, Mohammad (sp? no insult intended), and every other religious icon, they definitely existed, and they were definitely great philosophers with a lot of good points to make. As for them being divinely inspired/influenced, I am seriously skeptical. And their magic tricks (walking on water and such) were utter bullsh!t.

great philosophers? thats a stretch, especially in mohammeds case. a few grains of obvious and preexisting "widsom" in a haystack of harmful arbitrary senseless garbage is what their teachings were about. great manipulators of the people, thats what they were.

Philosophers are philosophers. Whether they are great are not is dependent on history. If you look at many of the great "revered" philosophers closely enough, you'll find more disturbing crap then you'd probably expect.

no, whether a philosopher was great or not depends on the quality of their teachings, whether they thought of anything new, and what was the quality of their reasoning. bullsh*t artists that are popular are nothing more than that, bullsh*t artists.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: irishScott
How can you look at something like the Universe, with it's laws, rules, dimensions, shapes, and ORDER and deny, with absolute certainty, that there isn't a higher being behind it?

Why do you bother even asking this question? They can and will just ask it in reverse. Let the atheists be - we're all just people, regardless of religion.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Descartes
Maybe you could actually present an argument? All you've given is rhetoric.

[edit]Oh, and educate yourself more about atheism, because your "100% certainty there is no god" isn't something espoused by many.[/edit]

That's kinda the definition of atheism. If you aren't 100% certain, that would make you agnostic...would it not?

Nothing is ever 100% certain. That's the whole point of faith. I consider it very likely that he exists, the same way I consider an A on a test very likely if I study hard. I'll be certain of one thing or the other when I die.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: chusteczka

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
the problem of evil
looking at the universe? sure its big, but its also cruel and wasteful and filled with arbitrary suffering.

you can't look at that and think it was "god", and even if you did the best you could come up with is that god is an amoral being. and frankly thats basically a worthless.

This statement is ironic since one of the main aspects of religious philosophy is to provide a means to deal with the suffering experienced in life.

aka fairy tales for adults. people also deal with their troubles with drugs to avoid the reality of the world. it doesn't make it something to be proud of or praised.

 

[Rangoric]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Descartes
Maybe you could actually present an argument? All you've given is rhetoric.

[edit]Oh, and educate yourself more about atheism, because your "100% certainty there is no god" isn't something espoused by many.[/edit]

That's kinda the definition of atheism. If you aren't 100% certain, that would make you agnostic...would it not?

Nothing is ever 100% certain. That's the whole point of faith. I consider it very likely that he exists, the same way I consider an A on a test very likely if I study hard. I'll be certain of one thing or the other when I die.

What I find interesting, is that you can only prove this once you are dead.

Not while you are alive, as you have no way of doing so. It must be after you cannot report back what you learn.

An Atheist could take your utter inability to provide proof as proof enough that they have no reason to believe a god exists.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny


If you counter argue with "God has always been," I can counter argue with "then it's just as safe to say that the universe has always been."

reading a more refined version of this argument pretty well ended my churchgoing.

 

[Leros]

A true atheist isn't sure. A person who says they are sure is full of sh1t.

/thread

 

[erikistired]

atheism is trendy right now, and 90% of the so called atheists on this forum are agnostic at best, but want to look cool and trendy online.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Rangoric

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Descartes
Maybe you could actually present an argument? All you've given is rhetoric.

[edit]Oh, and educate yourself more about atheism, because your "100% certainty there is no god" isn't something espoused by many.[/edit]

That's kinda the definition of atheism. If you aren't 100% certain, that would make you agnostic...would it not?

Nothing is ever 100% certain. That's the whole point of faith. I consider it very likely that he exists, the same way I consider an A on a test very likely if I study hard. I'll be certain of one thing or the other when I die.

What I find interesting, is that you can only prove this once you are dead.

Not while you are alive, as you have no way of doing so. It must be after you cannot report back what you learn.

An Atheist could take your utter inability to provide proof as proof enough that they have no reason to believe a god exists.

The proof is everywhere. The proof is that 1 + 1 = 2, and that g (on earth) = 9.8 m/s^2
The proof is that mass is not randomly scattered, but takes on the form of stars, planets.

Consider the big-bang theory. If the entirety of our Universe was compressed into something smaller then the head of a pin, and exploded, what are the chances that everything slid neatly into the organized universe we know and love on it's own?

And also, why are most educated, enlightened people peaceful, while rebels shove knives up women's vaginas in Africa?

By all the laws of nature, we should all be ultimately selfish and not give something without asking for something in return. Yet there are many people throughout history (and even more today) who give with no thought of a reward, save the good feeling that comes from doing something good. And where does that feeling come from praetell? Once again it violates the laws of nature.

 

[Conky]

What I've never understood about atheists is that they simply hate that others have any belief besides theirs.

Why do they care about making everyone atheists too if they are certain that God doesn't exist? I'm a Christian and could care less if others believe in God or not but Atheists are not happy unless they can ridicule and belittle others who don't share their belief system.

A real atheist would not care if others believed in God or not. People who insist that others must not believe in God suck worse than any biblethumper I've ever seen.