Question to Atheists:

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: irishScottEDIT: I don't mean to insult anyone here. I'm naturally curious about how people think.

Here's what I think. The "God Concept" is so profound and complex that if defies virtually every attempt to nail it down. It cannot be done, short of personal divinity / experience of divinity. All this talk about "I believe" and "you believe" IMO is just a shade higher than "my dad can beat up your dad", but not much. The most natural assumption is the atheists' -- that there is no God. I further believe that despite superficial claims to believe in God, esp. e.g. the sort of belief that comes handed down from Ma & Pa and Gramps and the local church and culture and community, etc., and even more so the sort of belief that says "well, I don't want to burn in hell, so I'll believe / do what it takes to avoid that" is shallow, and not true belief in God. We go about our daily lives for the most part as if God doesn't exist. We put our emphasis on studying about the world, earning money, satisfying our physical needs and wants, etc., etc., etc., and this is normal. The sort of belief that says "wow, something as profound as God exists, why the hell should I worry about my retirement, etc., when something that profound exists and I might pursue it 100%" is very abnomal, in this and most societies. So I claim that true belief in God is rare, and that the majority of those who profess belief in the self-evident God or what have you don't fully appreciate the profundity of the notion, and therefore, to varying degrees, exhibit behavior that itself, more so than their words and superficial beliefs, announces what they really believe -- that "I am center of the universe, and there is no God".

 

[Imyourzero]

Originally posted by: Journer

Originally posted by: Imyourzero
I'
Also, I remember reading something along the lines of: "You have nothing to lose by believing and everything to lose by choosing not to." Now I'm no Bible Thumper, and I'm not here to push my own personal beliefs on anyone...heck I'm not even sure what I believe sometimes. I definitely can't provide proof to anyone that there is a higher being. But that really made me think...I mean if you make the decision to go through life and believe in God and put your faith in Him, you might end up in Heaven. If you denounce Him, curse him, or deny his existence, you might end up in Hell. *IF* Hell exists, I can tell you that's one place I don't want to be. Hell might be a man-made concept, but if it's true and it's as hot and full of pain & suffering as what I've heard, I definitely don't want to spend eternity there. Heaven sounds like a much better place to me.

So I guess my point is, unless you're absolutely convinced that the only thing that happens after death is turning into worm food, why not believe? It's easy to shrug off now, because we're selfish and self-righteous, but it would seem we really do have nothing to lose by TRYING to get into Heaven. If it doesn't exist, we're still worm food, no harm no foul. If it does exist, it sounds like a much better place than the alternative.

what your asking people to do is:
1) stop believing in everything that makes perfect scientific sense and trade it for something that seems impossible
2) try to get others to follow you

you also make it seem soooo simple...
"just stop what you have been doing for years and do the complete opposite"

personally i think i'm at the point in my life where it would literally take an act of god to convert me back
that or being brainwashed

I'm not asking anyone to do anything...do what you want. Like I said, one way or another we'll all find out. If we do indeed turn into wormfood, it doesn't make a difference one way or another right?

 

[Imyourzero]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Imyourzero
I'm only halfway through the thread but wanted to comment on a couple of things.

Someone mentioned something like, "If there is a God, why is there so much hate and suffering in the world?" Religion teaches that God wants us to have a choice. He doesn't force us all to love Him, and He doesn't force us to do what is right. He wants us to, sure, but we're given free will to make the wrong decisions if we so choose.

Also, I remember reading something along the lines of: "You have nothing to lose by believing and everything to lose by choosing not to." Now I'm no Bible Thumper, and I'm not here to push my own personal beliefs on anyone...heck I'm not even sure what I believe sometimes. I definitely can't provide proof to anyone that there is a higher being. But that really made me think...I mean if you make the decision to go through life and believe in God and put your faith in Him, you might end up in Heaven. If you denounce Him, curse him, or deny his existence, you might end up in Hell. *IF* Hell exists, I can tell you that's one place I don't want to be. Hell might be a man-made concept, but if it's true and it's as hot and full of pain & suffering as what I've heard, I definitely don't want to spend eternity there. Heaven sounds like a much better place to me.

So I guess my point is, unless you're absolutely convinced that the only thing that happens after death is turning into worm food, why not believe? It's easy to shrug off now, because we're selfish and self-righteous, but it would seem we really do have nothing to lose by TRYING to get into Heaven. If it doesn't exist, we're still worm food, no harm no foul. If it does exist, it sounds like a much better place than the alternative.

BTW, very interesting thread. Thanks for the read. The concepts of space, time, the universe, etc. fascinate me and I love reading about/discussing them.

Now where are the threads on black holes, wormholes, and ghosts?

So, your argument is play it safe? Just consider how spineless that makes you!

OK, I'll do that. LoL.

 

[tealk]

I pray for you all.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: Platypus
Isn't this the 5th or 6th religion thread you've made recently?

If by recently, you mean the last 5 months, yeah.

Keep it going, IrishScott, it provides interesting speculation and discussion, something that needs to happen more often in this ever growing world.

As for the question...

I know these threads have about a 50% chance of turning into a flame-war, but I'll bite anyway.

Generally, I don't BELIEVE there is no god, I simply don't believe in it. It's a lack of belief. I've tried many times to explain that there are a couple or a few types of atheists, but without much success. I don't disagree with you, being a theist. I don't close my mind to the POSSIBILITY that one day I could be proven wrong, but I generally don't think that will ever happen. Hell, some aliens could come to earth and CLAIM to be gods, and demand us to repent, and I'd probably tell them to F off.

I don't believe in any sort of all powerful being, I don't believe that could exist. I do believe there is a logical and evidence provable way to explain everything, though I don't exactly believe we will ever be able to explain EVERYTHING.

The fact that some parts of existence and the way it works are complicated is not in any way shape or form proof that a higher being or god exists. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean we wont ever understand it... This has been proven thousands of times in our short history on earth so far. We used to believe that gods were angry when storms were looming. We used to think that there was no physical way to heal someone, other than prayer. We used to believe that earth was the center of the universe...

Science eventually explained all of these issues correctly, and demystified them.

In my opinion, if god existed, the universe would have no need to be so complicated, as god could simply will the pieces to work together as he/she/it wished. The small intricate pieces that run the physical world would not be necessary.

Just my take on it all... I'm not a know-it-all... I don't pretend to know it all, either.

I also don't enjoy having fundamentalists tell me how everything works, based on their religion. Because they don't know. They have no idea. None of us do.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Imyourzero
I'm only halfway through the thread but wanted to comment on a couple of things.

Someone mentioned something like, "If there is a God, why is there so much hate and suffering in the world?" Religion teaches that God wants us to have a choice. He doesn't force us all to love Him, and He doesn't force us to do what is right. He wants us to, sure, but we're given free will to make the wrong decisions if we so choose.

Also, I remember reading something along the lines of: "You have nothing to lose by believing and everything to lose by choosing not to." Now I'm no Bible Thumper, and I'm not here to push my own personal beliefs on anyone...heck I'm not even sure what I believe sometimes. I definitely can't provide proof to anyone that there is a higher being. But that really made me think...I mean if you make the decision to go through life and believe in God and put your faith in Him, you might end up in Heaven. If you denounce Him, curse him, or deny his existence, you might end up in Hell. *IF* Hell exists, I can tell you that's one place I don't want to be. Hell might be a man-made concept, but if it's true and it's as hot and full of pain & suffering as what I've heard, I definitely don't want to spend eternity there. Heaven sounds like a much better place to me.

So I guess my point is, unless you're absolutely convinced that the only thing that happens after death is turning into worm food, why not believe? It's easy to shrug off now, because we're selfish and self-righteous, but it would seem we really do have nothing to lose by TRYING to get into Heaven. If it doesn't exist, we're still worm food, no harm no foul. If it does exist, it sounds like a much better place than the alternative.

BTW, very interesting thread. Thanks for the read. The concepts of space, time, the universe, etc. fascinate me and I love reading about/discussing them.

Now where are the threads on black holes, wormholes, and ghosts?

So, your argument is play it safe? Just consider how spineless that makes you!

OK, I'll do that. LoL.

Somehow I would think that if there is indeed an almighty being, he'd be less than pleased with people who worship "just in case".
In fact, somehow that seems worse than not worshiping at all, after all, most people tend to prefer honesty above false ass kissing.

 

[Imyourzero]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Imyourzero
I'm only halfway through the thread but wanted to comment on a couple of things.

Someone mentioned something like, "If there is a God, why is there so much hate and suffering in the world?" Religion teaches that God wants us to have a choice. He doesn't force us all to love Him, and He doesn't force us to do what is right. He wants us to, sure, but we're given free will to make the wrong decisions if we so choose.

Also, I remember reading something along the lines of: "You have nothing to lose by believing and everything to lose by choosing not to." Now I'm no Bible Thumper, and I'm not here to push my own personal beliefs on anyone...heck I'm not even sure what I believe sometimes. I definitely can't provide proof to anyone that there is a higher being. But that really made me think...I mean if you make the decision to go through life and believe in God and put your faith in Him, you might end up in Heaven. If you denounce Him, curse him, or deny his existence, you might end up in Hell. *IF* Hell exists, I can tell you that's one place I don't want to be. Hell might be a man-made concept, but if it's true and it's as hot and full of pain & suffering as what I've heard, I definitely don't want to spend eternity there. Heaven sounds like a much better place to me.

So I guess my point is, unless you're absolutely convinced that the only thing that happens after death is turning into worm food, why not believe? It's easy to shrug off now, because we're selfish and self-righteous, but it would seem we really do have nothing to lose by TRYING to get into Heaven. If it doesn't exist, we're still worm food, no harm no foul. If it does exist, it sounds like a much better place than the alternative.

BTW, very interesting thread. Thanks for the read. The concepts of space, time, the universe, etc. fascinate me and I love reading about/discussing them.

Now where are the threads on black holes, wormholes, and ghosts?

So, your argument is play it safe? Just consider how spineless that makes you!

OK, I'll do that. LoL.

Somehow I would think that if there is indeed an almighty being, he'd be less than pleased with people who worship "just in case".
In fact, somehow that seems worse than not worshiping at all, after all, most people tend to prefer honesty above false ass kissing.

Did you even read what I wrote? If you did, you obviously didn't understand it.

I believe in God because I want to. I'm just saying that if someone doesn't know what side of the fence to be on, perhaps it's better to have faith. I mean what do you really have to lose, except perhaps a bit of ego, by submitting to a higher power?

If you put your faith in a god and it turns out that there is a god, you're safe when your time comes. If you put your faith in a god and it turns out that it was a bunch of crap thought up by man, what do you lose? Nothing. You're still going to be decomposing matter and most likely won't know the difference.

Anyway, have fun with this thread and thanks for making it so unhospitable. I thought it was interesting at first but I'm not going to be attacked for my personal beliefs. If you think that believing in God makes me an "ass kisser," then I won't try to convince you otherwise...and I certainly won't be belittled because of it.

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Imyourzero
I'm only halfway through the thread but wanted to comment on a couple of things.

Someone mentioned something like, "If there is a God, why is there so much hate and suffering in the world?" Religion teaches that God wants us to have a choice. He doesn't force us all to love Him, and He doesn't force us to do what is right. He wants us to, sure, but we're given free will to make the wrong decisions if we so choose.

Also, I remember reading something along the lines of: "You have nothing to lose by believing and everything to lose by choosing not to." Now I'm no Bible Thumper, and I'm not here to push my own personal beliefs on anyone...heck I'm not even sure what I believe sometimes. I definitely can't provide proof to anyone that there is a higher being. But that really made me think...I mean if you make the decision to go through life and believe in God and put your faith in Him, you might end up in Heaven. If you denounce Him, curse him, or deny his existence, you might end up in Hell. *IF* Hell exists, I can tell you that's one place I don't want to be. Hell might be a man-made concept, but if it's true and it's as hot and full of pain & suffering as what I've heard, I definitely don't want to spend eternity there. Heaven sounds like a much better place to me.

So I guess my point is, unless you're absolutely convinced that the only thing that happens after death is turning into worm food, why not believe? It's easy to shrug off now, because we're selfish and self-righteous, but it would seem we really do have nothing to lose by TRYING to get into Heaven. If it doesn't exist, we're still worm food, no harm no foul. If it does exist, it sounds like a much better place than the alternative.

BTW, very interesting thread. Thanks for the read. The concepts of space, time, the universe, etc. fascinate me and I love reading about/discussing them.

Now where are the threads on black holes, wormholes, and ghosts?

So, your argument is play it safe? Just consider how spineless that makes you!

OK, I'll do that. LoL.

Somehow I would think that if there is indeed an almighty being, he'd be less than pleased with people who worship "just in case".
In fact, somehow that seems worse than not worshiping at all, after all, most people tend to prefer honesty above false ass kissing.

Did you even read what I wrote? If you did, you obviously didn't understand it.

I believe in God because I want to. I'm just saying that if someone doesn't know what side of the fence to be on, perhaps it's better to have faith. I mean what do you really have to lose, except perhaps a bit of ego, by submitting to a higher power?

If you put your faith in a god and it turns out that there is a god, you're safe when your time comes. If you put your faith in a god and it turns out that it was a bunch of crap thought up by man, what do you lose? Nothing. You're still going to be decomposing matter and most likely won't know the difference.

Anyway, have fun with this thread and thanks for making it so unhospitable. I thought it was interesting at first but I'm not going to be attacked for my personal beliefs. If you think that believing in God makes me an "ass kisser," then I won't try to convince you otherwise...and I certainly won't be belittled because of it.

Actually the opposite should hold true. "Just in case" is just a sorry excuse for having faith-insurance. That wastes time, effort, and thought, based upon a scenario which has the possibility of being true but has no scientific backing for it whatsoever.

Let me give you an example - "just in case" the flying spaghetti monster is real, I make sure to pour two tablespoons of parmesian cheese into the garbage every day. Is it a waste of time? Well... if there is a pasta-land after death, then I wouldn't want to risk being tossed into the flames of the giant stove of the abyss. You can try and convince me otherwise, but just in case he exists I'm going to keep doing this day after day.

Now let's look at all the time accumulated and parmesian sauce wasted over the years for this possibility. It may not add up on a day to day basis, but over the coarse of a lifetime multiplied by several thousand FSM believers, it does add up to a significant value.

In the end? It was a big waste of time and just ended up setting humanity back a few hundred to a few thousand years socially on steps which we could have taken but didn't due to the belief of the FSM and his noodley appendages.

 

[Doom Machine]

look at the past, people have believed in sun gods, rain gods, viewed cats as gods....how could anyone say they were wrong? how could anyone say their not going to heaven or whatever. someone who believes in zeus could just as easily argue that you are wrong. current religion is no different than any other historic religion, its just a mental tool to help the less fortunate find a drive within themselves where in origin it was an idea that helped explain things early humans couldnt understand.

even current religion is constantly changing, just read a bible from the 1800's and you'll see, lots of interpretation differences from the current or updated bible if you will and jesus was never white

if there is a single conscious entitity that envolops everything we know, then it apprantly cares less if we worship it or not, otherwise it would make to each and every person known of itself in whatever way. religious discussions go nowhere, produce nothing and change no one.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Also, I remember reading something along the lines of: "You have nothing to lose by believing and everything to lose by choosing not to."

Pascal's Wager is not a sound reason to believe.

In a nutshell, you falsely assume that the only two options are YOUR god, or no god. What if the real god is Loki, and he punishes people that believe in your god? Then your premise that "you have nothing to lose by believing [in your god]" goes right out the window.

 

[OsoVerde]

Originally posted by: irishScott
...
By all the laws of nature, we should all be ultimately selfish and not give something without asking for something in return. Yet there are many people throughout history (and even more today) who give with no thought of a reward, save the good feeling that comes from doing something good. And where does that feeling come from praetell? Once again it violates the laws of nature.

Actually, it makes sense for humans to be "moral," individuals caring about each other has contributed to the survival of the species as a whole and thus been passed down as an instinct. There's a lot of species that are social for the same reason. Caring about other members of your clan means you will help them out in a pinch and they will be more likely to survive, and vice versa. If all of us were completely selfish there'd be a lot fewer of us around. It's easier to fend off predators and get enough food when animals work in a group. Also note that total assholes are less likely to get a date, thus their genes are less likely to be passed on.

 

[SammyTheSalmon]

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Doom Machine
look at the past, people have believed in sun gods, rain gods, viewed cats as gods....how could anyone say they were wrong? how could anyone say their not going to heaven or whatever. someone who believes in zeus could just as easily argue that you are wrong. current religion is no different than any other historic religion, its just a mental tool to help the less fortunate find a drive within themselves where in origin it was an idea that helped explain things early humans couldnt understand.

even current religion is constantly changing, just read a bible from the 1800's and you'll see, lots of interpretation differences from the current or updated bible if you will and jesus was never white

if there is a single conscious entitity that envolops everything we know, then it apprantly cares less if we worship it or not, otherwise it would make to each and every person known of itself in whatever way. religious discussions go nowhere, produce nothing and change no one.

Just give it some time. In another thousand years, schools will teach children about Euro-American mythology, and the tale of Jesus, just was we are taught now of Greek mythology. A religion, which at the time likely served the same purpose as modern religions do, is now called "mythology" without so much as a peep about it being blasphemous.

Originally posted by: Juddog
Let me give you an example - "just in case" the flying spaghetti monster is real, I make sure to pour two tablespoons of parmesian cheese into the garbage every day. Is it a waste of time? Well... if there is a pasta-land after death, then I wouldn't want to risk being tossed into the flames of the giant stove of the abyss. You can try and convince me otherwise, but just in case he exists I'm going to keep doing this day after day.

You jerk! Everyone knows our lord and noodlicious master is a fan of Romano cheese, not Parmesan. Duh. Enjoy your stay on the Giant Stove.
Parmesan.....damn heathens.

 

[GoingUp]

?I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.? [Stephen F Roberts]

 

[Fritzo]

I'm Catholic, have been all my life, but I do question a lot of the things taught by the church. Mainly, the fact that everything taught is based on people's understanding of the world 2000-5000 years ago. At that time- we understood nothing. Also, stories passed along tend to be exaggerated, added too, subtracted from, enhanced...so in the end you have recordings that can't be trusted. (We've all played the game in grade school where the teacher tells a story to the first kid in the class and tells him to pass it on, and by the time it gets to the end of the class it's a completely different story).

When I step back and look at things, the belief that there is a God that is devoting all of his time to this planet, requires us to worship him for some reason, and everything has to be explained in a similar way a Star Trek geek explains how deflector screens on star ships work.

I've since realized I do believe in God...but not in the usual sense. I think God created the universe(s), created the rules of the universe, and we're the result of those rules. It's like God wrote the software, and we're the output from it. Essentially God is physics. I'm comfortable with that thought, it makes sense, and it's a lot easier to explain than what the church thought of (with it's limited understanding of science) eons ago. And, if you're familiar with science, the easiest explaination is usually the most true.

 

[freakflag]

If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?

 

[OsoVerde]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Juddog
Let me give you an example - "just in case" the flying spaghetti monster is real, I make sure to pour two tablespoons of parmesian cheese into the garbage every day. Is it a waste of time? Well... if there is a pasta-land after death, then I wouldn't want to risk being tossed into the flames of the giant stove of the abyss. You can try and convince me otherwise, but just in case he exists I'm going to keep doing this day after day.

You jerk! Everyone knows our lord and noodlicious master is a fan of Romano cheese, not Parmesan. Duh. Enjoy your stay on the Giant Stove.
Parmesan.....damn heathens.

No no no... our noodly lord likes chow mein, you should be making offerings of soy sauce.

 

[Jeff7181]

what are the chances that everything slid neatly into the organized universe we know and love on it's own?

The odds are pretty great... one might say, astronomical. Take into consideration the elements we know to exist and the possible combination of them to make compounds. Now take into consideration how many atoms there are. I'd say in the grand scheme of things, the chances that those elements ended up in such a pattern that they turned into these neato life forms walking around here on Earth are pretty favorable. I'd also say that the odds of us being the only mess of atoms that ended up making something so neato are pretty astronomical as well. There's billions of stars in our galaxy and billions of galaxies in the universe. It may not even be a universe... maybe our galaxy is to the universe as the universe is to something else.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
?I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.? [Stephen F Roberts]

love it

 

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: tealk
I pray for you all.

Up yours. Keep your voodoo to yourself.

 

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
?I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.? [Stephen F Roberts]

thumbs up!

 

[dug777]

We could argue this until the cows come home, but there's no escaping the glaring reality that arguing on the internet is up there with trying to explain the concept of a Riemannian manifold to Britney Spears on the futility scale

 

[Nocturnal]

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Why bother contemplating something that the human mind simply cannot, and will not EVER be abe to understand? Just as a dog doesnt know that it is going to die, a human cannot possibly comprehend its own existence.

/thread

I could not agree more. Read the book of Job. Same concept.

 

[GPett]

Your question to us is "how can we deny?"

I deny nothing. I think anything is possible. The most possible idea to me is that we are all gods. Anyone that can create something is a god.

So, in all your observation, it is conclusive to you that there is a maker or god. I cannot dispute that. I merely choose to not decide on anything. Everything is up for debate. I will lean towards the most logical explanation but not say it as truth. So, I like to think of all of the possibilities while deciding on none.

I am a firm believer that for some questions there are no answers. That idea saddens some people. The lust for knowledge blinds and overwhelms some people.

So, in the end wich is worse? keeping an open mind or jumping to conclusions?