Question to DaveB3B

[Czar]

I´v allways wondered, because 3dfx is so proud of their T-Buffer, and they should soft shadows simply rule according to the screens I´v seen.

Anyway, can you name one game that is out or is in developement that uses any of those T-Buffer enhancments?

I will take it as on 3dfx web site, FSAA is not a part of the T-Buffer, even though it technicly is. Just name one game that uses any of the other effects.

 

[RoboTECH]

T-Buffer is used for FSAA and motion blur, among other things. The T-Buffer is DEFINITELY what makes the 5500s FSAA so well implemented.

I saw a video of motion blur in action in Q3, and it looks cool as $hit.

Unfortunately, iD won't let 3dfx release the patch for it.

 

[Czar]

Yeah I know, but FSAA doesnt reqire support from developers, what I want to know if any game developers are creating games with the T-Buffer in mind.

 

[RoboTECH]

i doubt it

3dfx has been almost wholly silent about the T-Buffer (and FXT1, for that matter)

their hardware is pretty good, but their marketing and PR departments are just plain asleep at the wheel.

 

[Czar]

Their marketing department is actually pretty good, its just they are to busy getting people to buy the cards instead of getting support from developers.

But I agree like so many, their PR department sucks ass.

 

[DaveB3D]

T-buffer is in DX8.. I think that speaks for itself.

 

[merlocka]

T&L is in DX7

 

[Czar]

Ok, that is Directx8, thats just an API, but what games will use it???

 

[DaveB3D]

DX7 T&L is weak..

Well every game uses it.. what uses motion blur and stuff? No idea. I don't workin dev rel.

 

[Czar]

You say every game uses it, and I´m asking for games that use the effects in T-Buffer, not directx8 or FSAA, I´m asking about games that use Motion Blur, Depth of Field, Soft Shadows or Soft Reflections??? These are the effects 3dfx has been promoting as T-Buffer, so what games uses them?

 

[DaveB3D]

FSAA was also an effect and it was the primary thing 3dfx promoted.. 3dfx also said you can do other things with it as well.

 

[Czar]

Yes ok, but FSAA is something developers dont have to think about.

But the simple question is

What games do you know of that developers are implimenting T-Buffer effects like Motion Blur, Depth of Field, Soft Shadows and Soft Reflections??

You just have to name names, or just say none if there arent any.

 

[DaveB3D]

And that is the great thing about the T-buffer.. it IS automatic..

as for other games, as I said I'm not dev rel so I don't keep track of it so I obviously wouldn't know..

 

[Czar]

The T-Buffer isnt automatic, only FSAA is, the rest has to be implimented by games developers, at least that is what 3dfx has been saying in all those interviews, and thats what all review sites have said.

Could you ask your dev team beacuse I realy like to know this?

 

[merlocka]

My point with the DX7 TnL comment is that even though the effectiveness of Geforce T&L is arguable (as Ben and Dave will attest) it can effectively be used to make a better looking game. Why isn't it used? I dunno. Perhaps the current T&L is difficult to impliment properly or not very effective (although demo's release by nvidia do impress me). Perhaps it's a timing thing in the industry since very few cards support it (as of today).

I feel T Buffer (effects, not FSAA) might see a similar scenerio. Demo's and patches to current games show T buffer effects can make a better looking game (I haven't seen it in action so I am speculating) but when (if ever) will we see games that utilize it? Even if T Buffer requires 1/10th the coding effort (wrt T&L) to impliment on a game, are SW developers willing to support a feature that can only be utilized by a small segment? ID won't authorize the motion blur patches for Q3 right? Why not?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Czar:
Dave works for 3dfx.
He can't tell you that NO games make use of any TBuffer effect other than FSAA, and that there aren't any games in development for them.
This kind of stuff isn't a secret, look at Doom3/Unreal2. Their programmers publicly acknowledge they develop on GeForce2 cards and work with nVidia on optimizing games for the nVidia feature set.
It used to be that way with 3dfx as well, we all knew Unreal was a Glide game long before it hit the shelf.

Those days are done and gone. People want more than this year's incarnation a V2/sli and 3dfx left them hanging. So, the developers turned away.

3dfx will regain their status if/when they stop trying to dictate to the market what it wants (e.g. Not having 32 bit color until 6/00, and saying it didn't matter because it was "too slow" on a TNT2 anyway. Interesting that FSAA runs slower at the same resolutions/color depths than 32 bit did on a TNT2, but that's ok.) and starts following what the market wants.

I imagine Dave will flame me for this, but is there anyone who can really deny any of this? (yelling "Troll" does not qualify)

 

[fodd3r]

the reason t&l sucks under dx7 is not because it's hard to implement, it's because you only have very limited capabilities. basically it's all static objects. so you can make the object bigger, smaller, move it in, move it out, move it side to side, rotate it. that's about it. but you can't "change" the model. for that you need the cpu, so the really intensive stuff is still on the cpu. as for people developing for the t-buffer, fsaa is it's most important feature and it works across the board. as for the other features that require developer support, not sure. but i'm pretty sure there are those out there that would support this, it's just a matter of time. we've given t&l time, now lets give the t-buffer a chance as well.

as for me being a 3dfx zealot, i'm not. i have a slight lean towards ati, but that's about it.

 

[Czar]

I know, just I want him to admit it, be stright enough to us on these forums. Its impossible to respect someone who acts like a politician and lies to us.

 

[DaveB3D]

Look... I have NO CLUE what games are using it.. I DON'T KNOW. What more do you want me to say? I don't. I don't freaking work in developer relations so I shouldn't be expected to know.

I don't see what you guys are getting at? I think you are trying to see that the T-buffer is like what I'm saying about T&L, which is totally wrong. The T-buffer works in EVERY game with FSAA.

Damn, I swear I could argue your side of things better than you guys can yourselves., if I so chose...

 

[miniMUNCH]

It seems that 3dfx lost its edge to nVIDIA in keeping developers happy. But some of the effects that the V5 can implement are so beautiful, I wish that some video games would use them. I don't like graphics that are pixelated, even in high resolutions; its just has a "raw". But developing games that use good cinematic effects is more difficult that just uping the poly count (or least so it seems).

Some of the "eye candy" factor just has to do with developers. For it day, Blade Runner was a sweet game (from what I remember). BGII is a sweet looking game. I know...it's apples and oranges. But developers aren't putting the effort into really sweet, crisp, cinematic grahics; there putting it into more poly's and high frame rates, which seems to be nVIDIA's cup of tea

I wonder if this is caused by a lack of good developer tools. In software, of you to get a technology endorsed by the market (in this case developer are the market) you have to make it as easy as possible to make the upgrade by giving them class tools, training, and around the clock support.

It seems nVIDIA has been more successful at promoting market up-take of T&L and what not than 3dfx has been at promoting their cinematic features.

I kinda hope this turns around in the near future, because if want raw graphics I'll play on my playstation. On the computer I want eye candy. To me, T&L is not eye candy. T-buffer effects are eye candy...and there so much more down the cinematic effects road than down the high poly's road, just look at the progression of movie effects in the last decade; all of these features could be added to video games.

Just my thoughts...I'm not an expert.

 

[EMAN]

I think we should still wait on those effects to take place in real games. Just like Geforce was developed long ago and now we are starting to see T&L games. Now the voodoo 5 came out last summer and we should see games within 2 years or so. It's entirely up to the developers if they want to code T&L or T-buffer or both.

Czar, dave said he doesn't know. What more do you want from him? I think you just want to see him crumble in front of your computer screen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Dave:
My point is we would ALL know if any developers were using the V5 and optimizing for it. 3dfx and the developers would promote this.
I don't doubt you could argue my side better than me, I'm not an engineer.

 

[Czar]

Since he gave a rather stright answear, like he usualy do I´ll stop asking, he actually seemes like one of the few 3dfx employis who is in conctact with the public that actually knows what he is talking about.