Question to my fellow pro-lifers on the killing of abortion doctors

[Atreus21]

Disclaimer 1: Even if I had a good argument for it, I would never kill anyone for acting legally, abortion doctors included.
Disclaimer 2: I don't want this to morph into yet another debate about abortion in general, so please keep trolling and personal attacks to yourself, regardless of what side you're on.

Question: Are abortion doctors innocent?

I've always struggled with this issue.

I equate abortion to an advanced stage of slavery. Slavery took only liberty necessarily, whereas abortion goes beyond even that, and takes life. It is the wholesale denial of the most basic civil right to an entire class of people, based on factors (such as race and age) entirely beyond their control. And that's the nicest thing I can say about it. It has killed millions. That's a fact. If abortion is murder, then we are casually allowing the slaughter of millions of not just humans, but babies for christ's sake.

If abortion is such a horror, then it follows that we must go to extreme measures to stop it. How extreme? A war was fought to end slavery. Are we willing to use violence, even killing others, to secure the right to life? Can it be secured peaceably? How many kids will die by then?

My dad, who ran an adoption agency for awhile, asked this question of his priest (namely if God wanted him to bomb abortion clinics). The priest said that he had seen war (I think he was a Korea vet), and that even abortion didn't justify murdering doctors. If violence isn't the answer to the killing of children, then to what can violence ever conceivably be the answer? Catholics and Christians aren't pacifists.

I asked Peter Kreeft a similar question in an email. He simply responded that he had no disagreements to what I said. He agreed that abortion was an abomination, but that killing abortion doctors was murderous.

The issue, I think, cruxes on whether or not abortion doctors are innocent. If they are, killing them is murder.

My answer is I don't know, and therefore I can not responsibly act. In the eyes of the law they are innocent. In the eyes of God, I don't know. There are passages in the bible that say to respect the human rules of law, because it is divinely granted.

We live in the freest, most benevolent and humane world power ever to exist. I cannot expect perfection. But how humane is a nation that allows the killing of the most disadvantaged of its citizens?

 

[MotF Bane]

Oh, this will end well. I am certain of it.

 

[Atreus21]

Oh, this will end well. I am certain of it.

I knew that going in.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Completely innocent. The termination of a pregnancy is not murder.

 

[hal2kilo]

Completely innocent. Read the book or watch the movie - John Irving's Cinder House Rules explains it eloquently.

 

[Infohawk]

It's not all black and white.

I'm not a Christian, but I can still see ethical problems with the killing of a fetus. But in terms of magnitude its nothing like killing a born human being. Another way to look at it is to ask how bent out of shape Christians get over killing of civilians and other soldiers in war. It's not very humane either, is it? But it happens and can be necessary. Same with abortions.

 

[brandonb]

I seen a bumper sticker recently that said something like "We save the whales, we hug the trees, we need to save the earth, we shouldnt kill animals for fur, but it's ok to kill our own unborn babies?"

I think that sums up my opinion. I believe spiritually (I'm a Catholic), that doing things for selfish causes are bad. God is love, Satan is selfishness. People do evil things when they are being selfish. So, is killing an abortion doctor a selfish act? What do I gain by killing an abortion doctor? I don't necessary gain anything... Maybe honor, pride, I'm not sure? Probably not even that.

What do abortions doctors get when they (legally) kill these babies? Money... Selfish act...

I think my opinion is pretty clear... Would I ever kill an abortion doctor? Nope, because the mom and doctor won't have a clear conscience when it matters the most.

 

[Jaskalas]

If violence isn't the answer to the killing of children, then to what can violence ever conceivably be the answer? Catholics and Christians aren't pacifists.

Maybe you should find a way to teach your fellow humans to cherish life.

Find a way to convert them to a pro-life view. Then rally your fellow church goers together in a state where you become the majority and declare abortion illegal in that state. Drive out the cult of death and live in peace with each other.

Best wishes to those who attempt to disconnect from mainstream society and hold something sacred. You've most of a selfish and decadent society standing against you.

 

[DesiPower]

In many cases its far better to abort if the mother is not sure. We have already seen many cases where mom are killing their babies coz they feel they are burden on them. With entitlement and charity running low coz of the economic depressions, babies who are not wanted by their parents are going to have a much more grimmer and darker future. IMHO its much better for not to have to go through the painful and miserable 60 or so years of their so called lives.
Christian charities and other groups will disagree with me, I am sorry, but the population in the world is already reaching a critical mass and if someone does not want to add to the misery, IMHO that decision should be welcomed.

 

[Atreus21]

It's not all black and white.

True, but all gray areas are mixes of black and white, and I like the mental exercise of trying to pick them apart.

I'm not a Christian, but I can still see ethical problems with the killing of a fetus. But in terms of magnitude its nothing like killing a born human being.

Here I'd ask, "Why not?" Especially in the case of partial birth abortion, which was only outlawed in 2003, and even then had to survive a supreme court challenge.

Another way to look at it is to ask how bent out of shape Christians get over killing of civilians and other soldiers in war. It's not very humane either, is it? But it happens and can be necessary. Same with abortions.

At the very least, when civilians die people and law regard it as wrong. Murders carry a prison sentence. Soldiers in war know the risk and decide to make that sacrifice for others.

 

[DesiPower]

I seen a bumper sticker recently that said something like "We save the whales, we hug the trees, we need to save the earth, we shouldnt kill animals for fur, but it's ok to kill our own unborn babies?"

I think that sums up my opinion. I believe spiritually (I'm a Catholic), that doing things for selfish causes are bad. God is love, Satan is selfishness. People do evil things when they are being selfish. So, is killing an abortion doctor a selfish act? What do I gain by killing an abortion doctor? I don't necessary gain anything... Maybe honor, pride, I'm not sure? Probably not even that.

What do abortions doctors get when they (legally) kill these babies? Money... Selfish act...

I think my opinion is pretty clear... Would I ever kill an abortion doctor? Nope, because the mom and doctor won't have a clear conscience when it matters the most.

What does your Catholic belief say about having sex and having babies outside marriage? Whats does it say about divorce. Coz these two things have a very negative effect on the lives of the babies. babies need a full and functional families to live and grow, just living or staying alive is not enough, having a good life is most important and IMHO if we know that a baby is going to have a miserable life... and the mother wants to abort, I guess we should respect the decision.

 

[woolfe9999]

Disclaimer 1: Even if I had a good argument for it, I would never kill anyone for acting legally, abortion doctors included.
Disclaimer 2: I don't want this to morph into yet another debate about abortion in general, so please keep trolling and personal attacks to yourself, regardless of what side you're on.

Question: Are abortion doctors innocent?

I've always struggled with this issue.

I equate abortion to an advanced stage of slavery. Slavery took only liberty necessarily, whereas abortion goes beyond even that, and takes life. It is the wholesale denial of the most basic civil right to an entire class of people, based on factors (such as race and age) entirely beyond their control. And that's the nicest thing I can say about it. It has killed millions. That's a fact. If abortion is murder, then we are casually allowing the slaughter of millions of not just humans, but babies for christ's sake.

If abortion is such a horror, then it follows that we must go to extreme measures to stop it. How extreme? A war was fought to end slavery. Are we willing to use violence, even killing others, to secure the right to life? Can it be secured peaceably? How many kids will die by then?

My dad, who ran an adoption agency for awhile, asked this question of his priest (namely if God wanted him to bomb abortion clinics). The priest said that he had seen war (I think he was a Korea vet), and that even abortion didn't justify murdering doctors. If violence isn't the answer to the killing of children, then to what can violence ever conceivably be the answer? Catholics and Christians aren't pacifists.

I asked Peter Kreeft a similar question in an email. He simply responded that he had no disagreements to what I said. He agreed that abortion was an abomination, but that killing abortion doctors was murderous.

The issue, I think, cruxes on whether or not abortion doctors are innocent. If they are, killing them is murder.

My answer is I don't know, and therefore I can not responsibly act. In the eyes of the law they are innocent. In the eyes of God, I don't know. There are passages in the bible that say to respect the human rules of law, because it is divinely granted.

We live in the freest, most benevolent and humane world power ever to exist. I cannot expect perfection. But how humane is a nation that allows the killing of the most disadvantaged of its citizens?

You're "struggling" with the issue of whether or not it is OK to murder abortion doctors? What about Muslims who "struggle" with the question of whether 911 was a good idea given the supposedly "murderous" foreign policy of the U.S.? I find the premise of this kind of discussion to be repulsive. Even if your position is that murdering the doctors is wrong, the very idea that it is debatable is a form of apologia for the people who do it.

Sorry, just keeping it real.

- wolf

 

[Perknose]

If abortion is murder, then we are casually allowing the slaughter of millions of not just humans, but babies for christ's sake.

A fetus is NOT a baby.

But how humane is a nation that allows the killing of the most disadvantaged of its citizens?

A fetus is NOT a citizen.

How many kids will die by then?

A fetus is NOT a child!

A fetus is none of these things, just as a spermatozoa or an egg aren't.

When you have to distort the truth and tell bold-faced LIES to make your point, your position is morally, ethically and intellectually bankrupt.

If abortion is such a horror, then it follows that we must go to extreme measures to stop it.

STOP right there. Your position is built on a mountain of obvious lies. A fetus is NOT a citizen, NOT a child, and NOT baby.

Question: Are abortion doctors innocent?

Yes.

The issue, I think, cruxes on whether or not abortion doctors are innocent. If they are, killing them is murder.

Crux is not a transitive verb, abortions doctors ARE innocent, but, more to the point, whether they are or not, the vigilante killing of them, the extra-legal gunning down of these physicians in cold blood by HATE filled, bible crazed religious zealots IS murder! :twisted:

My answer is I don't know...

Then may your God have mercy on your blood crazed soul.

 

[Jaskalas]

In many cases its far better to abort if the mother is not sure. We have already seen many cases where mom are killing their babies coz they feel they are burden on them. With entitlement and charity running low coz of the economic depressions, babies who are not wanted by their parents are going to have a much more grimmer and darker future. IMHO its much better for not to have to go through the painful and miserable 60 or so years of their so called lives.

Christian charities and other groups will disagree with me, I am sorry, but the population in the world is already reaching a critical mass and if someone does not want to add to the misery, IMHO that decision should be welcomed.

That is a hell of an argument. No I mean it. It's a good one, to weigh abortion against overpopulation and the resources available.

OTOH, I'm not sure that's the topic the OP wanted.

 

[Atreus21]

You're "struggling" with the issue of whether or not it is OK to murder abortion doctors? What about Muslims who "struggle" with the question of whether 911 was a good idea given the supposedly "murderous" foreign policy of the U.S.? I find the premise of this kind of discussion to be repulsive. Even if your position is that murdering the doctors is wrong, the very idea that it is debatable is a form of apologia for the people who do it.

Sorry, just keeping it real.

- wolf

It's not debatable. Whether or not to kill an innocent isn't debatable.

But it's a question everyone has to ask themselves. How far do your beliefs really go? And if you don't follow them through, did you ever hold them in the first place?

My problem is that this forces everyone into one of two categories: Extremist or pussy. Infohawk was right when he said it wasn't black and white, but I wish someone could prove that.

 

[Atreus21]

A fetus is NOT a baby.

A fetus is NOT a citizen.

A fetus is NOT a child!

A fetus is none of these things, just as a spermatozoa or an egg aren't.

On what basis is a fetus, 5 seconds before birth, not as much a baby as it was 5 seconds after?

When you have to distort the truth and tell bold-faced LIES to make your point, your position is morally, ethically and intellectually bankrupt.

And you base this accusation solely on the fact that you disagree on my definition of fetus?

Crux is not a transitive verb, abortions doctors ARE innocent, but, more to the point, whether they are or not, the vigilante killing of them, the extra-legal gunning down of these physicians in cold blood by HATE filled, bible crazed religious zealots IS murder! :twisted:

Then may your God have mercy on your blood crazed soul.

If abortion is murder, then to what extent would you go to stop it?

 

[Paratus]

So Op is a fertilized embryo a baby?

 

[Perknose]

You seriously need to chill out.

You're the only one here who "doesn't know" whether murdering physicians who legally perform abortions is a good idea or not. You are the one "struggling" with that impulse.

You are the one who seriously needs to chill out.

 

[DesiPower]

The question of whether or not a fetus is a baby is metaphysical. Would you seriously argue that a fetus just killed via partial-birth abortion wasn't a baby? Of course it was.

Agreed, if you some of the late term abortion videos or stories, they are just heart wrenching... although I am a strong supporter of abortion, when it comes these fetuses, I feel totally helpless and lost. I am not sure how the Doctors and nurses handle it...

 

[woolfe9999]

You're the only one here who "doesn't know" whether murdering physicians who legally perform abortions is a good idea or not. You are the one "struggling" with that impulse.

You are the one who seriously needs to chill out.

Yup, that is the problem with the premise of this thread. We get really hot under the collar when "moderate" Muslims don't unconditionally condemn things like 911. But it's supposed to be OK when "moderate" pro-lifers kinda sorta condemn killing abortion doctors, but in the end "struggle" with the question?

- wolf

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

A fetus is NOT a baby.

A fetus is NOT a citizen.

A fetus is NOT a child!

A fetus is none of these things, just as a spermatozoa or an egg aren't.

When you have to distort the truth and tell bold-faced LIES to make your point, your position is morally, ethically and intellectually bankrupt.

So true....so true.

 

[Atreus21]

You're the only one here who "doesn't know" whether murdering physicians who legally perform abortions is a good idea or not. You are the one "struggling" with that impulse.

You are the one who seriously needs to chill out.

I'm not struggling over whether or not to kill abortion doctors. If that's how I made it sound I apologize. I would never do that, and nobody else should either.

I struggle to reconcile my morality with the concept of a war to stop something so horrible.

 

[PokerGuy]

Someone who has committed no crime according to the laws in this country is by definition innocent. If you think God has a problem with their actions, he can and certainly will judge them Himself. God has not put you or anyone else in charge of being his "eyes and ears" on earth or to execute his judgment, he is quite capable of doing whatever needs to be done himself.

Now if you think something is an injustice and want to change the laws accordingly, have at it, there are mechanisms for doing so.

 

[PokerGuy]

On what basis is a fetus, 5 seconds before birth, not as much a baby as it was 5 seconds after?

And you base this accusation solely on the fact that you disagree on my definition of fetus?

No, this is not about your definition or my definition of anything. It's a medical scientific term and is exactly defined. There's no "your definition" or "my definition" of it, it's a fact. What you consider it to be is up to you.

If abortion is murder, then to what extent would you go to stop it?

It is not. That's why we have a legal system, to determine what is legal so it's not up to each person in society to figure out what's OK and what isn't.

 

[Mursilis]

Someone who has committed no crime according to the laws in this country is by definition innocent.

Maybe innocent under the law, but maybe not morally innocent, if the law itself isn't moral. At the post-WWII war crimes trials, it was certainly no defense to say that German law of the time allowed the slaughter of Jews and other undesirables.