Question to my fellow pro-lifers on the killing of abortion doctors

[Mursilis]

(1.) The abortion doctors are committing murder and they should know that they are committing murder because they are committing the sin of failing to be Christian.

The reason why is that only a minority of the population truly believes in Christianity. The rest are secular or even atheist and don't believe that a cell mass or a fetus without a develop brain is a person. ("There's no person inside of it; my dog has more of a personality and consciousness.")

That's just flat-out not true. I know the mass media won't put a pro-lifer on the air who isn't a slightly-deranged evangical or a Catholic, but there are such things as pro-life atheists, who are against abortion for reasons other than religion. Atheists for life even have a website, and I've posted the link many times here. Making the "Christianity" argument just means you don't want to think too hard.

 

[Mursilis]

People who oppose abortion generally have no problem at all eating a hamburger.

Oddly enough, one of my daughters is pro-life and vegetarian. My sister-in-law is pro-life, and won't eat a hamburger or pork, but does eat fish and chicken. Sorry if that upset your box.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

So, is killing an abortion doctor a selfish act? What do I gain by killing an abortion doctor? I don't necessary gain anything... Maybe honor, pride, I'm not sure? Probably not even that.

You gain a sense of justice in knowing that you have saved innocent lives. Ideally you could just lock these people in jail, but that's not going to happen unless you can convince the majority of Americans (who are complicit in the killings and who thus might also deserve to die) to make it illegal.

Based on your premise that abortion is murder, killing an abortion doctor or an abortion advocate is no different in principle than jailing or executing a mass murderer.

What do abortions doctors get when they (legally) kill these babies? Money... Selfish act...

They aren't doing it for money! The amount of harassment that they suffer and the threat of being killed or having family members killed is cost prohibitive.

They are doing it because they are atheist or secular, they don't believe that a person lives inside of a fetus that barely has a brain, and they feel they are helping women (and the would-be fathers) take control of their lives, preventing 18+ years of unnecessary poverty and suffering.

I suspect that the abortion doctors almost religiously believe that what they are doing is good and righteous just as much as abortion opponents believe that it is sinful.

What we have here is a clash of two philosophies:

One philosophy believes that we exist on this earth and that the good is to live your life and enjoy it. In this view, a God doesn't exist or if it does, it doesn't care about us and we are insignificant to it. Also, in this view, cell masses are not people and fetuses that barely have brains cannot possibly be people. So, there's nothing wrong with ending a pregnancy because no people are being harmed and potentiality is not actuality. Some Christians who are really Christian in name only fall into this camp. (They claim to believe in the other philosophy but in practice, based on how they live, they really believe in this philosophy.)

The other philosophy believes that a magic God-being that transcends all of the physical laws we know, that transcends reason and logic, exists. It's also implied that the good is to worship this God-being and follow its dictates, sacrificing things that seem good for you on this earth, perhaps in the hopes of a reward in the after-life. This God commands us not to kill these cell masses and fetuses. According to one version of this belief, the God-being "breathes" a "soul" into the cell mass at the time of conception. The very formation of the cell mass itself is thus a miracle and ending it--opposing the will of God--constitutes a grave sin.


That's what's going on here--you have a clash between two diametrically opposed philosophies. One of them is a "this worldly" philosophy and the other is mystical. The difference in these belief systems goes to the very core of everyone's thoughts and beliefs. It goes right down to basic metaphysics and what you believe to be the very nature of reality.

The implementation of the first philosophy led to an enlightenment and the development of modern technology and religious and social freedom. The implementation of the second philosophy led to the Dark Ages and religious dictatorship.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I think it would be instructive for anti abortion folk to be turned into 10 year old girls and raped by a genetic monster until they conceive. I think this would broaden a number of people's views.

I think it would also be instructive for pro-abortion folk to witness a partial birth abortion or suction abortion first hand. Perhaps you would be interested in standing bedside with abortion survivors who are routinely refused any medical treatment watching them suffer until they eventually die. And for those that live...well you can take that opportunity to tell that you thought their life was worthless.

There are many...you can start with a 'candy apple baby' named Gianna Jessen.

"My name is Gianna Jessen... I was aborted, and I did not die. My biological mother was 7 months pregnant when she went to Planned Parenthood in southern California, and they advised her to have a late-term saline abortion.

A saline abortion is a solution of salt saline that is injected into the mother's womb. The baby then gulps the solution. It burns the baby inside and out, and then the mother is to deliver a dead baby within 24 hours.

This happened to me! I remained in the solution for approximately 18 hours and was delivered ALIVE... in a California abortion clinic. There were young women in the room who had already been given their injections and were waiting to deliver dead babies. When they saw me the abortionist was not yet on duty and had me transferred to the hospital.

I should be blind, burned... I should be dead! And yet, I live! Due to a lack of oxygen supply during the abortion I live with cerebral palsy.

When I was diagnosed with this, all I could do was lie there. They said that was all I would ever do! Through prayer and hard work by my foster mother, I was walking at age 3 ½ with the help of a walker and leg braces. At that time I was also adopted into a wonderful family. Today I am left only with a slight limp. I no longer have need of a walker or leg braces.

...Death did not prevail over me... and I am so thankful!"

...and she was one of the "lucky" ones.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

You're "struggling" with the issue of whether or not it is OK to murder abortion doctors? What about Muslims who "struggle" with the question of whether 911 was a good idea given the supposedly "murderous" foreign policy of the U.S.? I find the premise of this kind of discussion to be repulsive. Even if your position is that murdering the doctors is wrong, the very idea that it is debatable is a form of apologia for the people who do it.

Amongst the Muslims, it's probably a very similar conflict to what I described, just over a different subject. Instead of abortion, the issue is whether it's good to kill the evil infidels who do not follow Islam and whose philosophy has been influencing and spreading to followers of Islam.

The same two philosophies that I described in my last post are still at war with one another, just over different issues.

 

[Paratus]

I think it would be instructive for anti abortion folk to be turned into 10 year old girls and raped by a genetic monster until they conceive. I think this would broaden a number of people's views.

Well you're not seeing the bright side of the arguement here. If the baby and 10 year old die in child birth the criminal monster could be charged with murder and sentenced to die! The we could be "Tough on Crime" and "Morally Righteous". It would only cost a criminal, a child and a fetus.

As long as we are exploring the most extremes of this debate would any our more vocal pro-lifers like to comment on what would happen if an illegal immigrant went to planned parenthood?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

That is a hell of an argument. No I mean it. It's a good one, to weigh abortion against overpopulation and the resources available.

It's a good argument for showing that abortion may be in people's and humanity's self interest. However, it isn't a convincing argument. The best thing it might accomplish is to get someone to question their premises. The only real way to convince someone that abortion can be good or that it isn't murder is to challenge their base premises (religion) and convince them that it is wrong and that they should get a better philosophy.

In practice, I would argue that abortion is not murder because a cell mass or a fetus cannot possibly have a personality. If someone is half-secular, half-Christian then that argument might eventually persuade them.

However, if they are a full blown Christian then they truly believe that God breathes a soul into the embryo at conception and that the conception itself is a miracle. In that case the only compelling argument is to somehow show them that their entire religious belief is wrong and irrational. You have to bring them to reason and reality and I don't know a really good way of doing that.

You might be able to teach someone reason and logic and over time get him to contemplate just how ridiculous the notion that a magical, transcendent being exists is. I suppose you would also try to help him see that his belief system is based on having been indoctrinated with the belief since childhood. Something like that might only work on a very introspective and philosophical Christian who would be willing to listen to you long enough to consider the idea.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Agreed, if you some of the late term abortion videos or stories, they are just heart wrenching... although I am a strong supporter of abortion, when it comes these fetuses, I feel totally helpless and lost. I am not sure how the Doctors and nurses handle it...

Let me help you.

It has human form--but it doesn't have a developed human brain nor a human-level consciousness (if it is even conscious at all).

You eat meat, right? What about those poor animals that are slaughtered for food (or run down by automobiles)? They have more highly developed brains and personalities than a 12 week old fetus. In other words--there isn't a person in there. Even a newborn only has the consciousness of an animal or less and not a human-level personality.

If we can justify killing animals for food or driving vehicles (knowing that we might kill animals that run across the road), then surely killing a fetus for huge economic reasons must be justifiable.

I hope that helps.

(If you oppose abortion, this isn't an argument in favor of abortion. I'm just trying to help a guy who supports abortion in the very early stages recognize that it's not as bad at some later stages.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Someone who has committed no crime according to the laws in this country is by definition innocent. If you think God has a problem with their actions, he can and certainly will judge them Himself. God has not put you or anyone else in charge of being his "eyes and ears" on earth or to execute his judgment, he is quite capable of doing whatever needs to be done himself.

Now if you think something is an injustice and want to change the laws accordingly, have at it, there are mechanisms for doing so.

So, according to your logic, a good Christian would not have fought in World War II or in any war since God will always be there at the end to hand out eternal judgment? Should good Christians have not attempted to end the Nazi's Holocaust?

It's pretty much the same issue with abortion.

 

[Atreus21]

No, this is not about your definition or my definition of anything. It's a medical scientific term and is exactly defined. There's no "your definition" or "my definition" of it, it's a fact. What you consider it to be is up to you.

It is not. That's why we have a legal system, to determine what is legal so it's not up to each person in society to figure out what's OK and what isn't.

Okay, then I'll rephrase. If slavery were suddenly reinstated, to what extent would you go to stop it?

 

[Atreus21]

So Op is a fertilized embryo a baby?

It's a human being, yes. At its earliest stage of development.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The solution is easy,all those who don't support a woman's right to choose should refrain from having an abortion. Worry about your self and let other worry about themselves.

By that same logic, if someone doesn't support murder, should they just sit on the sidelines and allow people who do believe in murder to go free?

For example. Let's suppose that 99.8% of the people think it's wrong for psychopathic pedophiles to kidnap, rape, and murder 8 year olds. However, 0.2% of the populace thinks it's OK, and it's their religion. Should the 99.8% of the populace just sit back while the 0.5% does its thing?

It's the same issue. If you think that something is murder and a huge injustice--don't you feel obligated to band together with other people to try and stop it? In our society we have the police and the courts to do that.

So, it's not as easy as telling anti-abortionists to just keep out of the issue and not have one. At the very least they would try to persuade other people that this is murder and to change the laws.

I'm saying that what you say sounds good to people who favor abortion, such as myself, but that it isn't at all convincing to anyone who oppose abortion. It might be more convincing to say that, "If you oppose abortion, consider the fact that abortion is not murder because a personality cannot possibly exist inside of the fetus."

 

[Atreus21]

Nearly half of all fetuses spontaneously abort, does that design make God the greatest abortionist? Why do you hate God and want to kill him? Deicideist!!

If you want my answer as a Catholic, I'd say that God's choices are beyond our ability to comprehend.

Now really what is your problem with an intelligent species controlling the results of its instinct for reproduction? The method? Come up with a better one. And forcing the females to eat their young is not allowed.

I have no problem whatsoever with controlling our instincts, but killing our own progeny is a bit of a stretch. Just because there's too many hats doesn't mean you start lopping off heads.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Morally right? No
Legally right? Yes

Are they innocent? No one can answer that question definitively.

I think it can be answered definitively, but I'm an atheist and I believe that reality is objective in nature and that no God-beings exist.

 

[nick1985]

Denying women the right to choose is silly. Ban on late-term abortions I can see, but otherwise the government needs to keep their hands off peoples' bodies.

I'm not sure which issue gives conservatives more of a black eye, this or gay marriage.

 

[Atreus21]

That's nonsense. I've met doctors who are passionate about the service they provide women. I guarantee they've never lost a moment of sleep over it.

Then I'd like to ask them if they'd be as passionate about performing a D&E abortion without a moment's hesitation. If so, that's sick.

 

[Moonbeam]

It's a human being, yes. At its earliest stage of development.

No, I think proto-viruses or some kind of pond scum are human beings at the earliest stages of development. Please carefully filter your water so you don't take a potential sentient life. You are an absolutist but just not absolute enough. What you should be worried about is asteroids the ultimate coat hanger.

 

[Atreus21]

Denying women the right to choose is silly. Ban on late-term abortions I can see, but otherwise the government needs to keep their hands off peoples' bodies.

Why? Why would you allow the government to put its hands on peoples' bodies for a late-term abortion, but not a mid-term?

 

[Atreus21]

No, I think proto-viruses or some kind of pond scum are human beings at the earliest stages of development. Please carefully filter your water so you don't take a potential sentient life. You are an absolutist but just not absolute enough. What you should be worried about is asteroids the ultimate coat hanger.

Okay then moonie, when do you think a human being becomes a human being?

 

[Mursilis]

No, I think proto-viruses or some kind of pond scum are human beings at the earliest stages of development.

In nine months, do proto-viruses become infants? Do they look like fetuses on sonograms?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

That's just flat-out not true. I know the mass media won't put a pro-lifer on the air who isn't a slightly-deranged evangical or a Catholic, but there are such things as pro-life atheists, who are against abortion for reasons other than religion. Atheists for life even have a website, and I've posted the link many times here. Making the "Christianity" argument just means you don't want to think too hard.

I believe you when you say that there are (at least self-proclaimed) atheists who oppose abortion. When you have a world filled with 6 billion people, there will always be a couple freaks. I suspect that the atheists who oppose abortion constitute 0.1% of all atheists and very well might be former Christians.

I'd like to see the "Atheists for Life" explanation as to why it's wrong to abort a 2 day old embryo.

 

[PokerGuy]

So, according to your logic, a good Christian would not have fought in World War II or in any war since God will always be there at the end to hand out eternal judgment? Should good Christians have not attempted to end the Nazi's Holocaust?

It's pretty much the same issue with abortion.

Based on your logic, who gets to decide who is right? Your moral values? Mine? Sheik Ahmad Abudullah? Oh, that's right, we as a society have a framework for deciding such things. We make laws, and we can change them to reflect our views. And, we elect people and they make decisions (such as when to go to war) that should reflect our views. Imagine that!

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I think it would also be instructive for pro-abortion folk to witness a partial birth abortion or suction abortion first hand.

Do you eat meat? It might be instructive for you to visit a slaughterhouse.

Perhaps you would be interested in standing bedside with abortion survivors who are routinely refused any medical treatment watching them suffer until they eventually die.

You make it sound as though there are people inside the "abortion survivors". There's no personality inside of those fetuses to "survive". It's almost akin to an animal getting hit in a car accident, except the animal probably has a much higher state of consciousness than the fetus.

And for those that live...well you can take that opportunity to tell that you thought their life was worthless.

Sure, I'd be happy to argue that abortion should be legal. They, too, as people now have the freedom to abort and to benefit from it.

There are many...you can start with a 'candy apple baby' named Gianna Jessen.

"My name is Gianna Jessen... I was aborted, and I did not die. My biological mother was 7 months pregnant when she went to Planned Parenthood in southern California, and they advised her to have a late-term saline abortion.

A saline abortion is a solution of salt saline that is injected into the mother's womb. The baby then gulps the solution. It burns the baby inside and out, and then the mother is to deliver a dead baby within 24 hours.

This happened to me! I remained in the solution for approximately 18 hours and was delivered ALIVE... in a California abortion clinic. There were young women in the room who had already been given their injections and were waiting to deliver dead babies. When they saw me the abortionist was not yet on duty and had me transferred to the hospital.

I should be blind, burned... I should be dead! And yet, I live! Due to a lack of oxygen supply during the abortion I live with cerebral palsy.

Accidents can happen in all sorts of human endeavors. The only way to prevent them is simply not to live at all. Perhaps if the doctors had just euthanized the fetus right then and there, this wouldn't have happened.

When I was diagnosed with this, all I could do was lie there. They said that was all I would ever do! Through prayer and hard work by my foster mother, I was walking at age 3 ½ with the help of a walker and leg braces. At that time I was also adopted into a wonderful family. Today I am left only with a slight limp. I no longer have need of a walker or leg braces.

...Death did not prevail over me... and I am so thankful!"

...and she was one of the "lucky" ones.

Potentiality is not an argument against actuality.

What about all of the wasted sperm and egg in the world? Would you agree that contraception is an abomination because it essentially ends the existence of people who might otherwise be born?

 

[Mursilis]

I believe you when you say that there are (at least self-proclaimed) atheists who oppose abortion. When you have a world filled with 6 billion people, there will always be a couple freaks. I suspect that the atheists who oppose abortion constitute 0.1% of all atheists.

So? 1000 years ago, atheists likely would have been a miniscule minority is most any society. Does that affect whatsoever your decision to be one today? I thought you were smarter than to make an "appeal to the masses" argument here.

I'd like to see the "Atheists for Life" explanation as to why it's wrong to abort a 2 day old embryo.

So look for it. For someone who claims to support objectivity, you're hiding from it awfully hard as you perpetuate the myth about Christians being pro-life. Obama's pro-choice - does that mean he's lying when he claims to be a Christian?

 

[Red Dawn]

By that same logic, if someone doesn't support murder, should they just sit on the sidelines and allow people who do believe in murder to go free?

Sorry , Murder isn't an elective medical procedure, it's not the same logic.