Quick question re need for WPA over WEP

[Ken90630]

Hey, All,

An acquaintance of mine just got Time Warner broadband Internet service a few months ago. When TW came out & did the installation, they set him and his wife up with a Netgear wireless router so their two computers (at opposite ends of the house) could both connect to the Internet via the router. A routine setup, obviously.

Only problem (maybe?) is that the router only offers WEP encryption, and only 64-bit at that (no 128-bit option). I don't know much about networking, but I've read, and even saw a report on 60 Minutes a month or so ago, about how WEP can be hacked easily by someone who knows how to do it.

So I'd like you guys' expert advice: Just how easy is it to hack 64-bit WEP? Could some teenage neighbor kid living a few houses down, for example, or someone parked on their street with a laptop, hack into my friends' wireless network? Is it that easy to hack? Or is it a sitch whereby yes, it can be hacked, but only by fairly sophisticated people who'd have to specifically target my friends?

I guess what I need to know is, should I tell them they're pretty safe and not to worry about it or is is pretty much a necessity to get a new router with WPA encryption?

 

[AnnonUSA]

WEP is supposed to be easily broken, WPA has more security.....for now.

 

[JackMDS]

From the weakest to the strongest, Wireless security capacity is.

No Security
MAC______(Band Aid if nothing else is available).
WEP64____(Easy, to "Brake" by knowledgeable people).
WEP128___(A little Harder, but "Hackable" too).
WPA-PSK__(Very Hard to Brake ).
WPA-AES__(Not functionally Breakable)
WPA2____ (Not functionally Breakable).

Note 1: WPA-AES the the current entry level rendition of WPA2.

Note 2: If you use WinXP and did not updated it you would have to download the WPA2 patch from Microsoft. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/893357

The documentation of your Wireless devices (Wireless Router, and Wireless Computer's Card) should state the type of security that is available with your Wireless hardware.

All devices MUST be set to the same security level using the same pass phrase.

Therefore the security must be set according what ever is the best possible of one of the Wireless devices.

I.e. even if most of your system might be capable to be configured to the max. with WPA2, but one device is only capable to be configured to max . of WEP, to whole system must be configured to WEP.

If you need more good security and one device (like a Wireless card that can do WEP only) is holding better security for the whole Network, replace the device with a better one.

Setting Wireless Security - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Security.html

The Core differences between WEP, WPA, and WPA2 - http://www.ezlan.net/wpa_wep.html

 

[Ken90630]

Wow. Thanks a mil, Jack. You're the man. :beer:

I'll check out those links. I've been meaning to get my feet wet with this stuff for awhile anyway, so I guess this is as good a time as any.

One other question if you have time: The TW installer guy set up their network for them back in October. Then I came over after Christmas and configured his wife's new laptop (a Christmas gift) to be able to print wirelessly to her printer via the router (rather than a direct USB cable). To do that, I had to call TW and get a WEP key so that I could connect the printer to the router/network. If I decide to replace their existing WEP router with a new one with WPA, will that come with its own WPA "key," or do I need to call TW and tell them what I'm doing so they can give me some new key? With a new router, I'll need to set up not only the laptop but the two PCs as well.

I realize this is a really dumb question, but as I said earlier, I don't know much about networking and this is all new to me. Thanks for your patience.

 

[JackMDS]

If the printer itself was made Wireless. Then it would depends on whether the Printer Wireless Server can do WPA (you have to look at the manual.

If the printer is connected via a wire to another computer, or to the Router, then the Wireless security has no affect on the printing.

I.e. Wireless security can be set it to whatever is possible between the Laptop and the Wireless Router.

 

[Kaervak]

I've done WEP cracking on my own network before, it took about five minutes with a 64bit key. WEP is very very easily broken now.

You can change the WPA key to whatever you want without having to call Time Warner. By default routers have their encryption turned off so when you get the new one you'll have to enable it. It's fairly easy to do, and if you can't figure it out there usually is a step by step setup guide that the routers have on CD.

As far as the printer sharing goes, you may have to change that depending on how you set it up. If the network printer is setup as //IP Address/Printer that might have to be changed depending on how the new routers' subnet is. IE: current subnet is 192.168.0.100 and new subnet is 192.168.10.100. If you try to use the old settings with the different subnet, it won't work. It's a pretty easy thing to change really, since you've already set it up once it won't be difficult to figure out. However if you've setup the printer sharing as //PC Name/Printer you won't have to change anything as it's sharing the printer by it's machine name instead of IP address.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
If the printer itself was made Wireless. Then it would depends on whether the Printer Wireless Server can do WPA (you have to look at the manual.

If the printer is connected via a wire to another computer, or to the Router, then the Wireless security has no affect on the printing.

I.e. Wireless security can be set it to whatever is possible between the Laptop and the Wireless Router.

Thanks, Jack. The setup is as follows:

They have 3 computers -- 2 custom PCs (built by me) running Windows XP (SP2) and a new HP Pavillion laptop running Vista. The laptop has 802.11n capability.

The incoming broadband signal comes into the house and into the router (obviously). The 'base' PC sits next to the router and is connected to it via an ethernet cable (i.e., not wirelessly), and the printer is connected to the router, not directly to the PC. So when the wife sends a print job from the PC to the printer, it goes to the router and then to the printer. Her HP laptop is connected wirelessly to the router, so she connects to the Web and also prints wirelessly via the router. I guess her HP OfficeJet printer has its own print server and enables this to work this way? However it does it, it works.

The husband's PC is at the other end of the house and has an 802.11x adapter that connects to the router, wirelessly, in the other room where the wife's PC is. He has his own printer (connected via a USB cable), so the only thing he does wirelessly is connect to the Internet via the wireless router.

From what you've said, I guess if they decide to get a WPA-capable router, I just need to make sure the wireless adapter on the husband's PC can 'do' WPA? (And if it can't, just get one that can.)

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: Kaervak
I've done WEP cracking on my own network before, it took about five minutes with a 64bit key. WEP is very very easily broken now.

You can change the WPA key to whatever you want without having to call Time Warner. By default routers have their encryption turned off so when you get the new one you'll have to enable it. It's fairly easy to do, and if you can't figure it out there usually is a step by step setup guide that the routers have on CD.

As far as the printer sharing goes, you may have to change that depending on how you set it up. If the network printer is setup as //IP Address/Printer that might have to be changed depending on how the new routers' subnet is. IE: current subnet is 192.168.0.100 and new subnet is 192.168.10.100. If you try to use the old settings with the different subnet, it won't work. It's a pretty easy thing to change really, since you've already set it up once it won't be difficult to figure out. However if you've setup the printer sharing as //PC Name/Printer you won't have to change anything as it's sharing the printer by it's machine name instead of IP address.

Hope that helps.

Okay, I guess I should probably recommend ditching the WEP-only router and getting one that does WPA. Any specific brand/model recommendations? I see Office Max has some Linksys wireless-G and -n routers on sale this week. Will pretty much any wireless-G or -n router from the likes of Netgear, Linksys or D-Link do the job, and is there anything in particular I should look for (or avoid) when deciding what to get for them?

What you describe in your third paragraph above is a little over my head , but I'll probably end up just diving in and seeing if I can figure it out. Heh heh ... I may post back here in a few days seeking help if I can't figure it out.

Thanks a lot for the help. :beer:

 

[JackMDS]

If the printer is plugged to the Router with a wire then the wireless situation is not relevant to the printer.

Which Wireless Router?

Unless there is very specific reason, getting Draft-N is a waste of money.

Putting aside what is on sale in local store.

For basic Wireless I would go with this, http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16833181219

If extra distance is needed this, http://www.newegg.com/Product/...181218&Tpk=zyxel%2b550

If the desktop can do WPA upgrade its Wireless with this, http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16833315041


---------
When it comes to recommending Wireless hardware, Your Millage Might Vary.
Wireless is depended heavily on specific environmental factor that ca not be assessed thoroughly Internet exchanges.

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Okay, I guess I should probably recommend ditching the WEP-only router and getting one that does WPA. Any specific brand/model recommendations? I see Office Max has some Linksys wireless-G and -n routers on sale this week. Will pretty much any wireless-G or -n router from the likes of Netgear, Linksys or D-Link do the job, and is there anything in particular I should look for (or avoid) when deciding what to get for them?

What you describe in your third paragraph above is a little over my head , but I'll probably end up just diving in and seeing if I can figure it out. Heh heh ... I may post back here in a few days seeking help if I can't figure it out.

Thanks a lot for the help. :beer:

Hmm, that's kinda surprising that a router with a built in print server doesn't support WPA. What model Netgear is it?

Anyway, to keep the convenience factor of having the router be the print server, you'll probably want to get another router that offers the same capabilities. One that comes to mind in the Asus WL-520GU. I just ordered one today so I don't have any real world experience with it yet.

 

[Twr1]

You should be able to get WPA capable with just a firmware upgrade.

Even my 4 year old Netgear WGT624 does WPA now.

 

[JackMDS]

Since Wireless is rather "touchy" I look for a good Wireless device first. No point to get "quriky" Wireless because it has printer server.

A stand alone printer server is $30 - $40.

Network ready are better than 3rd party printers servers, and few can be found for about $100.

Kaervak the Asus WL-520GU looks intresting come back and tell us how good its wireless work.

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Kaervak the Asus WL-520GU looks intresting come back and tell us how good its wireless work.

Will do. I'll play around with the stock firmware for a bit and then DD-WRT it and let you guys know how it is. It has the same CPU, clockspeed, flash ram and system ram as the Buffalo WHR-G125, plus that USB port.

 

[JackMDS]

Originally posted by: KaervakWill do. I'll play around with the stock firmware for a bit and then DD-WRT it and let you guys know how it is. It has the same CPU, clockspeed, flash ram and system ram as the Buffalo WHR-G125, plus that USB port.

Can it do WDS, and or Client Mode without Flashing?

 

[Ken90630]

JackMDS and Kaervak:

You asked what model router they have. It's a Netgear CG814WGv2 (wireless). In terms of it being WPA capable or not, I'm going by what the Time Warner tech support guy told me on the phone -- that it's not. If he's all wet, or if, as Twr1 mentioned, a firmware upgrade could make it WPA capable, that'd be great. I don't know if it has a print server in it or not.

BTW, a couple weeks ago another member of this site advised me (via PM) on how to hook the 'host' PC up to the router via the ethernet cable, and the printer to the router, and the laptop to the router (wirelessly), and said the printer itself would act as the print server in this config (cause it has an ethernet port). Is that incorrect and is the router acting as the print server?

If the desktop can do WPA upgrade its Wireless with this, http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16833315041

Don't know if it can or not -- I think the TW guy installed a wireless USB adapter thing to enable wireless communication with the router at the other end of the house. I'll have to find out whether or not it can do WPA, I guess. It's the adapter thing that has to be WPA capable, right? And not the PC itself?

Thanks for the product suggestions. :beer:

 

[JackMDS]

If you have WPA option in Windows Wireless Configuration the adaptor is WPA capable.

Netgear CG814WGv2 does WPA, and may be even WPA2.


---------
P.S. Doing technical stuff through PM is nice. However it can backfire too.

If the helper makes a mistake , or and Not fully informed, you miss on the feed back from others.

In addition, look at this thread, it was viewed over 100 times. I.e. there are other people that viewed it and might benefit from the info, which is not the case with PM.

There are a lot of Shy people that are reluctant to post. Open threads is a Gold Mine for them.:thumbsup:

 

[Kaervak]

Yep, it can handle WPA/WPA2. http://www.netgear.com/Product...?detail=Specifications

And it has a built in print server via the USB port on it. If you were to replace it you would need to buy a new cable modem and router. That Netgear is a cable modem/router all in one. So definitely check the wireless security options in the config menu. My best guess is the Time Warner tech just went with the lowest common denominator and just said WEP out of convenience.

 

[Twr1]

The Netgear download page for the CG814WG Modem directs you to the ISP for support and firmware.

http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/cg814wg.asp

The Time Warner support is a bit thin on specific models. You may have better luck contacting support for your area and let them know your/their concerns with Wireless WEP.

http://www.timewarnercable.com.../internet/default.html

One last possibility is that some of the Netgear routers have a Web Update tab on their configuration page to upload new firmware. You might get lucky with that if Time Warner uses that feature.

 

[Ken90630]

Wow. You guys are awesome. :beer: :beer:

Okay, here's where I embarrass myself (even further):

How do I access the "Windows Wireless Configuration" or "configuration page"? I don't think there's any actual router software on the 'host' PC -- in fact I know there isn't because I just did a reformat & fresh Windows installation on it last week and I didn't install any router software afterwards. I made a list of all the programs installed before I reformatted the drive, and there was one app on there called 2Wire Wireless Client. I didn't re-install it because, after talking to my friend about it, we decided it was prolly related to a previously-unsuccessful attempt by TW to use some other type of wireless connection between the router and the computer at the other end of the house. But maybe 2Wire Wireless Client is the software I need to get to the configuration page?

Do I basically need to find a CD with some router software on it? Forgive my ignorance here, guys -- this is literally the first time I've done much of anything with a router.

Jack: Yeah, I agree about the pros & cons of using PM'ing over posting in a forum. The guy I PM'd is an elite member (like you) on this site and sort of my "go to" guy when I want a quick and/or sure-fire-correct answer on something. So that's why I PM'd him in that instance. Plus I've been ill for more than a year and haven't posted on the forums for quite awhile until today.

My best guess is the Time Warner tech just went with the lowest common denominator and just said WEP out of convenience.

Yeah, maybe. It's funny, 'cuz I specifically told him I wasn't real happy that they set my friends up with WEP and wanted to know if I could change the router's encryption to WPA. He flat out said it wouldn't do WPA and my friends would have to go buy another router if we wanted WPA. (And that WEP is "fine" and "secure enough.") And companies wonder why their tech support gets bad ratings .... :roll:

The Netgear download page for the CG814WG Modem directs you to the ISP for support and firmware.

Based on the fact the router already does WPA, it shouldn't need a firmware update, right?

The Time Warner support is a bit thin on specific models.

Yep, we've established that, haven't we? :laugh:

One last possibility is that some of the Netgear routers have a Web Update tab on their configuration page to upload new firmware. You might get lucky with that if Time Warner uses that feature.

Good thought. I'll keep that in mind if it comes to that.

Again, thanks a mil, guys.

 

[JackMDS]

May be you should read these pages.

My New Wireless does not work - http://www.ezlan.net/wireless.html

Wireless Basic Configuration - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Config.html

Wireless Security - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Security.html

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
May be you should read these pages.

My New Wireless does not work - http://www.ezlan.net/wireless.html

Wireless Basic Configuration - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Config.html

Wireless Security - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Security.html

Can do. Thanks.

 

[Twr1]

You need to log into the modems configuration page to change it to WPA.

Netgear suggests using the CG814M if you don?t have ISP support for your model. We can assume that it has a similar configuration. You can find the Reference Manual on this page.
http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/cg814m.asp

Section 2-9 in the manual.

To log in to the modem, type 192.168.0.1 into your browser and hit enter.
User Name: admin
Password: password

Your ISP may have changed the log in to something else. Check the paperwork your friend got from Time Warner.

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: Twr1
You need to log into the modems configuration page to change it to WPA.

Netgear suggests using the CG814M if you don?t have ISP support for your model. We can assume that it has a similar configuration. You can find the Reference Manual on this page.
http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/cg814m.asp

Section 2-9 in the manual.

To log in to the modem, type 192.168.0.1 into your browser and hit enter.
User Name: admin
Password: password

Your ISP may have changed the log in to something else. Check the paperwork your friend got from Time Warner.

You 'da man. Thank you. :beer:

 

[Basse]

May I ask what the benefits are of using this DD-WRT firmware I keep seeing? More advanced functions not necessary for a basic user or increased stability and/or reach as well?

 

[Ken90630]

Just wanted to thank you all. I went back over to my friends' house this afternoon and, thanks to you guys' instructions, was able to change their encryption from WEP to WPA. Piece of cake, actually.

Couldn't have done it without your help, so thanks again. :beer: