(r)Evolution

[pandemonium]

Do you remember watching Star Trek and wondering how they made a society function without money?

I'd like to have a serious discussion about that. Could we? Can we?

How would a society, deeply entrenched in the lust for capitalism, begin a march into an evolved society that values life and time over profit? How would a nation function, adequately providing compensation for each person's qualities, time, and effort they provide to the whole? I have my ideas, but I want to allow others here to lead the conversation without too much influence.

I'm looking for a think-tank like discussion on how that may happen. Please refrain from outright nay-saying, as it would not contribute in any way.

 

[whm1974]

Well there is bartering and some other complex systems of exchange before money came along. Keep in mind mind however that people can still crave to have things of value even without money.

 

[Ken g6]

I remember reading someone's proposal for a Star Trek economy. I think this is it:

The Economics of Star Trek

The Proto-Post Scarcity Economy

medium.com

The idea was that you give people an increasingly large basic income, to the point where for most purposes everyone has enough money for everything.

But I have a hard time imagining a scenario where there is no scarcity of anything. Money of some kind will tend to pop up where there is scarcity. Even Star Trek adopted the supposedly backwards money of the Ferengi eventually.

 

[whm1974]

I don't think money will go away entirely as there there will always be a need for a medium of exchange and store of value for large and complex societies. This goes double for those that depend on trade with other societies.

 

[Paladin3]

It could only work in a society where everyone preformed some type of mandated service of value to society. To completely provide for an individual's needs without requiring a reciprocal amount of work is impossible to maintain on a large scale. We can't all play if nobody is working, and there needs to be some motivation for people to work.

And, even then, you would run into the problem of individuals with varying ideas of what is necessary to have a fulfilling life, and how would they achieve those individual wants and needs. And how would you provide for the individual who's wants are to simply exercise their free will and not participate in the system?

I always felt the people in Star Trek had evolved into dedicated, self-sacrificing, slaves (for lack of a better word) who put duty and the good of society ahead of their individual pursuits and happiness. Something human beings will probably never learn to do, and which would be boring as hell anyway.

Besides, who would we put in charge of such a system that would ensure everyone got a fair portion of our resources without trying to exploit the system to their own benefit? The framework of any system of government would almost necessitate being draconian in nature, as many human beings tend to value free will above all else.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I'm pretty sure the star trekky post-scarcity economy came from two things, infinite (or near enough to infinite) energy, and consumer-ised systems which could convert energy to matter. In that scheme, literally everyone can have anything they want, whenever they want, and nobody's 'out' anything by providing it, so there's no barrier to letting people have whatever they want.

There's a few episodes of ST which give vague references to 'stipends' or 'credits' or 'vouchers' for certain activities, like cross-planet beaming (not applicable to our flagship crew) so it's possible there's at least somewhat of a concept of restrictions on how much a given person can obtain/have in a day/month/year/lifetime. But for the most part it seems that nobody ever has a true want for anything, and as such society has taken the idealized path of everyone pursuing what they want rather than just getting by. A fun side-effect is that at least within the bounds of Federation core worlds, there's no need for money. You only need whatever's relevant to barter with other aliens that don't share your ideas, like gold-pressed latinum or self sealing stem bolts.

Given that we have neither of those two things, its hard to imagine society ending up in that idealized state... we could get ourselves closer to infinite energy than matter generation, but I don't see anyone that would have the resources to generate that much energy giving it away, given that we're closer to Ferengi than Federation.

 

[pete6032]

I'm pretty sure the star trekky post-scarcity economy came from two things, infinite (or near enough to infinite) energy, and consumer-ised systems which could convert energy to matter. In that scheme, literally everyone can have anything they want, whenever they want, and nobody's 'out' anything by providing it, so there's no barrier to letting people have whatever they want.

Exactly.

The show also seems to lay out how it happened, at least to some extent. Humans realized they weren't alone and that led them to set aside their differences.

Approximately ten years after the end of the war (World War III), in 2063, First Contact was made with the Vulcans. The realization that Humans were not alone in the universe united Humanity in a way no one ever thought possible, and within fifty years, less than two generations after the post-atomic horror, Humanity was finally able to eliminate poverty, disease, war, and hunger. Along with poverty, a lot of other things disappeared from Humanity, including hopelessness, despair, and cruelty.

World War III

In the shadow of this incalculable devastation, we find ourselves facing a colossal challenge. There's an entire world to rebuild. Not only our cities and homes, but mankind itself!Colonel Phillip Green World War III (2026 – 2053) was the last of Earth's three world wars. The conflict involved...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

You can also watch the first episode of TNG and there is some more background about this when Q puts humanity on trial.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

To me it’s all about the replicator and later the holodeck
Assuming we had unlimited fusion or tri-lithium power and some sort of device that could make every physical item or food we could ever desire out of that energy the need for money is gone.
Holodeck to keep you entertained however I suspect we’d use it for more lustful purposes and end up like the High Elder in Warhammer 40k.

 

[ElFenix]

I remember reading someone's proposal for a Star Trek economy. I think this is it:

The Economics of Star Trek

The Proto-Post Scarcity Economy

medium.com

The idea was that you give people an increasingly large basic income, to the point where for most purposes everyone has enough money for everything.

But I have a hard time imagining a scenario where there is no scarcity of anything. Money of some kind will tend to pop up where there is scarcity. Even Star Trek adopted the supposedly backwards money of the Ferengi eventually.

In star trek you can literally ask the wall for a cup of earl grey, hot, and a cup of hot tea just appears out of nowhere. Scarcity isn't a thing, other than dilithium crystals.

 

[pandemonium]

Good talking points, ladies and gents!

From what I'm seeing here, the consensus seems to be we'd need to take care of basic necessities completely (energy, water, food, clothing, transportation, education, health care) before money would fall to the way side? And even then, there'd still be fringe aspects of scarcity and demand that'd cause a currency of some sort to be utilized regardless?

 

[Paladin3]

Good talking points, ladies and gents!

From what I'm seeing here, the consensus seems to be we'd need to take care of basic necessities completely (energy, water, food, clothing, transportation, education, health care) before money would fall to the way side? And even then, there'd still be fringe aspects of scarcity and demand that'd cause a currency of some sort to be utilized regardless?

What it comes down to is do you want to live in a world where someone supplies you with the necessities and in return you do as you are told? Because most of us would want to do our own thing in pursuit of our own idea of happiness if all our mundane concerns were already met. And with all of us off doing our own thing, who would work to maintain and support the system that provides those basic needs?

Replicators and holodecks don't build themselves. Or, do they???

 

[pandemonium]

I wouldn't think that'd necessarily be the case. Once full automation is ubiquitous basic necessities would be covered. Individual pursuits would be encouraged in a society which provides all of the basic necessities via machine labor. Hand-crafted would be placed on a pedestal and worshiped, exponentially more so than it is now. Theoretical scientists, artisans of specialty, and entertainers would all become default career paths.

Of course, sentience of AI and the morality of that is another aspect that'd be a massive hurdle to overcome. That's a subject that was only briefly explored in the Star Trek universe and wasn't fully explained in its actual function of daily reliance. A lot was taken for granted in that scenario. Data was but a mere fractional representation of the AI that would be utilized in the society of Star Trek, should our actual progress flow into that path.

Cybernetics is another worrying aspect. If machines are doing all of the labor, it seems only natural that people would wish to adopt cybernetics to remain a part of the gearworks in the ethos . A society that admonishes all aspects of labor and resorts to pleasure and leisure is certainly doomed. Or is it?

 

[Paladin3]

I wouldn't think that'd necessarily be the case. Once full automation is ubiquitous basic necessities would be covered. Individual pursuits would be encouraged in a society which provides all of the basic necessities via machine labor. Hand-crafted would be placed on a pedestal and worshiped, exponentially more so than it is now. Theoretical scientists, artisans of specialty, and entertainers would all become default career paths.

Of course, sentience of AI and the morality of that is another aspect that'd be a massive hurdle to overcome. That's a subject that was only briefly explored in the Star Trek universe and wasn't fully explained in its actual function of daily reliance. A lot was taken for granted in that scenario. Data was but a mere fractional representation of the AI that would be utilized in the society of Star Trek, should our actual progress flow into that path.

Cybernetics is another worrying aspect. If machines are doing all of the labor, it seems only natural that people would wish to adopt cybernetics to remain a part of the gearworks in the ethos . A society that admonishes all aspects of labor and resorts to pleasure and leisure is certainly doomed. Or is it?

I'm not sure the Star Trek Universe has "advanced" to the point that the labor and control by sentient beings is no longer necessary. It's possible they could achieve such, but refuse to do so because it would essentially make themselves obsolete. Once you turn over complete control to the slaves/machines, what is to keep them laboring for us?

But I though we were only talking about not needing money because the whole of one's practical needs would be provided to them?

 

[pandemonium]

It's difficult to talk about reliance on money without discussing the context of the scenario in which its used. The discussion is meant to be how would a society without currency be possible.

 

[interchange]

These things already exist in some scale with tribal societies, communes, etc. Any idea whose structure includes mandates I think is destined for failure. The money (pun intended) is through a societal structure where the rewards of cooperation outweigh the rewards of individual competition. And critically those rewards are social/psychological. In today's society, the value of stuff and money is largely social/psychological anyway. If it couldn't be used to reference yourself to others, there would be far less motivation to seek wealth.

The "problem" with this structure is that it leads to equilibrium. Look at indigenous populations with stable ways of life for eons. Technological advancement is motivated through competitive values not cooperative ones.

 

[pandemonium]

Is progress diametrically opposed to cooperation though? Surely nurturing competition for advancement can be woven into an egalitarian form of society.

 

[interchange]

Is progress diametrically opposed to cooperation though? Surely nurturing competition for advancement can be woven into an egalitarian form of society.

Surely it can because...?

 

[zinfamous]

To me it’s all about the replicator and later the holodeck
Assuming we had unlimited fusion or tri-lithium power and some sort of device that could make every physical item or food we could ever desire out of that energy the need for money is gone.
Holodeck to keep you entertained however I suspect we’d use it for more lustful purposes and end up like the High Elder in Warhammer 40k.

who's paying the poor sap to clean up the "sticky" holodeck 5 times per day? What could possibly encourage someone to do that...job if they already can get anything they would ever want?

YOU NERDS NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT, DID YOU?!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

who's paying the poor sap to clean up the "sticky" holodeck 5 times per day? What could possibly encourage someone to do that...job if they already can get anything they would ever want?

YOU NERDS NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT, DID YOU?!

The replicator is using the sticky mess to make your sammich.
Seriously no clean up necessary holodeck uses leftover matter to make new matter.

 

[spacejamz]

who's paying the poor sap to clean up the "sticky" holodeck 5 times per day? What could possibly encourage someone to do that...job if they already can get anything they would ever want?

YOU NERDS NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT, DID YOU?!

guess it all depends on if they can automate ALL menial jobs in the future...maids, custodians, etc....

 

[whm1974]

guess it all depends on if they can automate ALL menial jobs in the future...maids, custodians, etc....

Danger!!! Danger!!! The Holodeck Maids can be mistaken for real women!!! Males past puberty are at Risk of constantly engaging in Orgies with Faux Females!!!

 

[OccamsToothbrush]

In a world where everything you want pops into existence out of a replicator, who would be a replicator repairman? Or bother to mine/manufacture/excrete whatever resource or goo is used to fabricate?

Gee, let's see, I can replicate a pitcher of margaritas and go to the holodeck for a threesome with Elle Macpherson and a green martian babe that has a level 17 vibrating vagina or I can go to work and spend 11 hours fixing someone elses replicator and holodeck so that I be no better off than I am now? Tough call.

The Star Trek economy collapses on day 1. If there's no incentive to work or excel then nobody will work or excel. If you think crack, meth and oxy are addictive, imagine a world where everything you could want and every prurient itch could be scratched with a single button click. Nobody would ever leave the house.

 

[pandemonium]

Why do people read books when you can read it all online?

Why do people play instruments when you can get a keyboard to make the sounds just like them?

Why do people ... et cetera, et cetera.

The pursuit of personal growth is something that humans will always have. Just because an economy is self-sustaining doesn't mean its people will suddenly succumb to sloth. Also, projecting today's woes of massive variance in sustainability and living quality into the future of a society that would seemingly have abundance at beck and call doesn't seem realistic.